Loopwheeled/Vintage T-Shirts

[everyinchofgod]

The Rakuten Earthlink looks real cool.

I jumped on there and immediately found this.

http://en.item.rakuten.com/earthmarket/1130578/

I love Japanese-translated websites. "The collar is gaining strength in the thick double-stitched wrappers." "You do not have a downright cute Snoopy."

[thelion1856]

anyone here know how to place orders on the warehouse site?

do they ship to the US?

i tryed to fill out the members form for the site but it appears to be for people who live in japan only. I did not see a section where it asked what country & the zip code section is kinda different. thanks.

[Snake]

http://www.ware-house.co.jp/overseas.html

The order form link is at the bottom of the page.

[thelion1856]

thanks for feeding the addiction man, just placed an order! haha!

[kiya]

Just saw this thread, could be my new favorite thread on Sufu.

I am completely obsessed with t-shirts.

I pretty much only want tees with a triple-stiched collar, any brands that have this outside of Flat Head?

My favorite undershirt tees are the new Flat Head Flatlock Seamed tees, i've never seen anything like it. I find a lot of the repro brands from Japan interesting because they're clothing is reproducing a very 40's and 50's style but their tees are all 60's and 70's style in terms of construction and fabric feel.

[beatle]

btw - those gonna come back to SE ?

[thelion1856]

ya kiya bring em back to SE!

[kiya]

They only make em twice a year, so no more till the spring of 2011.

I dropped the ball myself, i should have bought more for myself, ended up with only two white ones and no black ones.

[Snake]

Flat Head triple-stitched collar. I thought I'll post a pic of it for everyone to see.

The third stitch line is below the collar, on the shirt itself.

I don't know much about vintage Ts, Is this a 40s or 50s vintage detail? or is this something FlatHead goes "above and beyond"?

I have both the black and white flatlock seamed Ts. The black one is noticeably softer.

[jstavrin]

So the third set of stitching is just a visual detail?

[rodeo bill]

^^ I'm not a massive expert, but from what I've observed (and what these pics look like to me), the triple stitch is a cover stitch. That neck rib was seamed on first, with an overlocker (serger):

front of the seam (imagine this is the body and the neck rib)

back of the seam (likewise)

then you make another run ove the seam with the coverstitch machine, which really just topstitches over the seam 'covering' it:

outside:

inside:

on this Tshirt, everything's white/ecru, so you can see the 3 topsitches which are part of the coverstitch, but also the cross stitches. In th flathead T you can see on the inside of the neck there are little white dots- this is because the top threads are white, but the back threads are black, so the white only shows where it's been pulled through from the front. If the flathead T is the same as this there will be black cross threads on the front, running between the conrast white threads. If not, then this is a slightly different sewing machine, which doesn't have front cross threads, but it's the same principle. It would look like this, buit with 3 top threads:

Unless... that's a bound neck, rather than a seamed rib. In that case you get this construction:

where the neck binding is put on on a binding machine, and all the bulk is on the outside, leaving a flat inside seam. This ^^ has a twin stitch, but you could also get a triple stitch version- it's just a question of the machine. No particular advantage except that triple is slightly stronger, and uses that much more thread.

The disadvantage of this type of binding is that while with a seamed neck binding it's put on manually so you can hide the rib seam:

with a bound seam it's put on with a binder, which needs to run off, so you have a raw end to the binding, which needs to be overlocked off (in my opiniona bit messy and bulky):

edit- now that I've posted this I've taken another look at the flathead photo, and I'm pretty certain it's a bound neck (like the stripey T above). It's bound with the same fabric as the body (jersey not rib), and I think you can see the binder run-off overlocked away with the shoulder seam on the top right of the photo...

[rodeo bill]

apologies if this is dull, or I've got it all wrong... but while I've got some Tshirts and the camera out:

shoulder seams! you often find the shoulder seam is supported, to stop it stretching out. This is the most common one on stock/vintage/classic/whatever Ts: the back neck seam is covered with jersey binding, which runs off across the shoulder seam and into the armhole:

this is a neat, simple, pratical way of doing it, but I've got a couple of Ts with interesting alternatives:

this one has a strip of the body fabric overlocked in with the shoulder seam, which supports it and stops it stretching out:

this one goes a step further and has a strip of woven tape sewn into the seam, so it can't stretch at all:

^^ I really like this treatment, excelt that they (Helmut Lang before they went bust) also wanted to cover the back neck, so there;s jersey binding roubd that, which is folded over at the sides of the neck, which I think is a bit bulky and inelegant:

[coleslawyum]

As usual your posts rock, RB. Just informed about something for years: how to keep the T-shirt it's shape after many years of wear.

[jstavrin]

Very awesome post. +rep.

[cheapmuthafukr]

i have a nice champion im sure yall would like... ill get some pics when i get to the house.

also, what is the the defining mark of a loopwheeled tee? no side seams? i mean, if thats the case then my hanes white tees are loopwheeled... of course not as high quality, but they have no side seams. i guess its like selvege.

[kiya]

also, what is the the defining mark of a loopwheeled tee? no side seams? i mean, if thats the case then my hanes white tees are loopwheeled... of course not as high quality, but they have no side seams. i guess its like selvege.

Loopwheeled fabric is NOT the same as a seamless tube fabric.

about 75% of brands that say their fabric is "loopwheeled" are either flat out lying or don't know what loopwheeling is.

The machine itself is quite rare, extremely slow, and is finicky in the way it works. True loopwheeled fabric is extremely strong, soft, and can be very very heavy in weight compare to a normal (and even most vintage) tees.

[coleslawyum]

For more info, look no further than Loopwheeler.

[cheapmuthafukr]

yeah, i have a loopwheeler tee... or, my son has my old sufu loopwheeler... and ive read thier page before, but wasnt sure if it was a story along the lines of evisu buying old levis looms... you know japanese brands like to embellish a bit.

here is that champion tee...

got it for the wife cause it is too small for me.

[Snake]

Bill - Thanks for the informative post. Must spread.You are right, it is a bound neck with the raw end. I just realize how bad my pic was. Here are better pics showing the details.

Edit: Skull Jeans Ts have triple stitched collar as well. I am pretty sure that Skull Jeans Ts are made of loopwheeled fabric too.

[Snake]

This is my favorite T-shirt, Tender Woad Dyed T. Made of loopwheeled fabric with flatlock seams. Dip dyed in natural indigo from woad. No shoulder seams.

My favorite detail is the rib cuff.

fit pic

I was trying to visualize how the Ts are constructed. Tubular body Ts must have shoulder seams and the Tender's shoulderless seam construction must have side seams right?

You can't put together a T without both side seams and shoulder seams?

[lostinthesupermarket]

Nice tee cheap.....made me realise something

It's weird but some of my favourite tees over the years have been cotton/ poly blend. They seem to be harder wearing and keep their shape a bit better than pure cotton. Usually I'm a natural fibre snob. Anyone else feel the same way?

Bill...your woad tees are amazing. Snake....must spread.

[rodeo bill]

Tubular body Ts must have shoulder seams and the Tender's shoulderless seam construction must have side seams right?

You can't put together a T without both side seams and shoulder seams?

yup that's right:) Most jersey is knitted tubular (you can also flat-bed knit jersey I believe), and loop-wheel knitted jersey is definitely tubular (they're lovely looking machines- the jersey falls out by gravity from the bottom, and is fed from an array of yarn cones at the top, and the whole centre section revolves very slowly- I had pictures but I can;t seem to find them. Maybe on my old computer which I don't have anymore goddamit...

As with so many of this type of thing, tubular Ts were developed as they were cheap to make- no side seams is less work, and as jersey is stretcy you don't really need extra shape under the arms (sorry another rambling aside, but I have cheap tubular Ts that I've worn for years, many of which now have gaping holes under the arms because there's no shape there. Some vintage, and some good repro tubular Ts, including early Evisu JP are cut with a sort of vertical batwing gusset cut into the armhole of tubular Ts, so that when the sleeve is sewn on you get a 'freedom gusset'- I don't have any I don't think- one day I'll sew up a mockup if people would like).

The thing with tubular Ts though is that you're making the Tshirt up from the cloth as it comes off the knitting machine, so for different sizes you need to knit different sized tubes. If you're Hanes or Champion you're making enough that this doesn't matter, but in my (Tender's) case, it's tiny numbers, so I had to figure a different way to do it. I've seen vintage jerseys cut without shoulder seams, and it seems a really nice solution, and allows you to flatlock straight up the side seam through to the sleeve seam, which I like too. It also dispenses with the need to cover the shoulder seam (see above). It;s not suited to mass production though as the neck hole has to be cut one by one (it's slightly forward of centred so can;t be cut on the fold) with scissors rather than a saw.

While I'm on this rant. What do people think of single jersey vs interlock? Most Ts are single jersey (front close-up has vertical lines, back is more of a zig-zag, whereas interlock looks similar on both sides) Jersey tends to be drier, and thinner, where interlock has more body and is a bit softer- it's more like a double-faced cloth. The stripey comme T in my above post is interlock I believe, and is actually knitted with a stripe on one side only, which I think is pretty cool!

edit- should've added Cheap's T is lovely, and Lost I'm with you on poly mix, which is annoying as some really nice repro Ts are blends. Does anyone know/own Slapshot? They have lovely Ts, but whenever I've been into the tokyo store they were all poly blends and I've avoided them.

[thelion1856]

the knowledge & pics in this thread is fappin!!

[Val Kilmer]

thanks for feeding the addiction man, just placed an order! haha!

How did that go? Sent them a e-mail couple days ago, but no answer.

[HoustonChris]

Damn, this thread is killing me. All the info makes me want to go through my entire pile of tees to figure out what I've got, but I'm reading while I'm out of town for work, so I only have 3 tees with me. Frustrating!

Bill, since you really know your shit, I have a quick question for you: I have a shirt with side seams and it skewed several inches after a couple of washes. Classic STF leg twist looking stuff. What causes that in a shirt? I'd provide a pic, but that's one of the many tees at home, not here in the hotel with me.

[thelion1856]

How did that go? Sent them a e-mail couple days ago, but no answer.

they sent back an email to me saying they had the stuff i wanted in stock then a paypal recipt, i payed by paypal now waiting for them to send an email back when they ship it i guess. easy.

[ChuckO]

I just got this Samarai shirt from BiG. I have to send it back. It's a large and I typically take a medium but I couldn't fit. Barely got my head thru the opening and the arms were crazy..

[rodeo bill]

I have a shirt with side seams and it skewed several inches after a couple of washes. Classic STF leg twist looking stuff. What causes that in a shirt?

I'm not 100% sure, but I imagine it's the same cause as with a woven fabric skewing (eg STF leg twist). Yarn is spun (twisted) to make the fibres stay together in a way that they can be used. If you twist some pieces of string together and let go, they'll untwist (think rubber-band plane!). In a woven fabric (and I guess also a knitted fabric), the yarn is trying to untwist itself, which causes the whole piece of fabric to shift/twist. Yarn can either be 'S twist' or 'Z twist' (I can;t remember which is which, but one is spun clockwise, the other is anticlockwise). With denim, one of these (again sorry I can't remember which) is standard, so that in a Right Hand Twill it is tightened during the weaving (making RHT a tighter fabric) and in Left Hand Twill it unwinds slightly during weaving, which (I think) is why LHT gets softer with wear than RHT. The direction of the weaving (twill) is what causes causes clockwise/anticlockwise leg twist in RHT/LHT unsanforized jeans. With Tshirts I assume it's the same, although as jersey is knitted not woven I'm not as clear about how you predict it... Looking at a few of my Ts just now, they all seem to be twisting clockwise- anyone else?

As with woven (eg denim), jersey is usually 'set' to reduce the shrinkage and twisting, but cheap stock/vintage Ts might not be, so certain repro-minded brands might not want to remove the setting stage (just as they might choose unsanforized denim). Sorry for the ramble- hope that makes some sense:o

Anyway, I just dug out a particularly favourite paif of Ts of mine... when I was about 5 my dad went to New York and brought me back a batman Tshirt, which was my absolute favourite:

as evidenced by how faded it is, and also (just noticed this now) my mum's hand-repairs (this made me feel extremely nostalgic/homesick!

anyway the first time I went to the US was about 12 years later, when I was 17. And I bought this:

makes you sick doesn't it?

incidentally- they're both tubular, and the grownup sized one has ripped at both armpits- which is an example of what I mentioned before as the problem with tubular unless you put in a gusset- there's no shape under the arms:

[HoustonChris]

That explains a lot; not rambling at all. I always wondered about the LHT being softer thing and never saw a reason before. Thanks, man.

Oh yeah, I gave you my first ever +1 rep. Or at least I think I did, I've never done it before.

[lostinthesupermarket]

Funny post Bill. You should buy another one of those tshirts every ten years or so.