Jeans of the Old West: A History

[rnrswitch]

I washed the denim pieces just by running them through some water. The denim still felt like it had some starch in it after it had dried.

The transformation is really easier to see in real life. The pictures don’t do them justice.

Here is another piece I had found. It looks like a brown twill fabric. Almost like a heavy chino or something. It looks like a fly. There also seems to be some rotted tack button or rivet connected. I would think it looks like a rivet as there is no button present. If it is actually a rivet, then that would mean it may be levis. Does anyone know of anything like this that could have been made by levis at the time?

This is the spot where it looks like a rivet was attached at some time.

Here is a pic of the backpack I made for the venture. Made of sanforized CONE selvedge denim. Thrown together in about 4 hours. It worked well, but I plan on making some changes. I didn’t have any buckles so the straps are fixed length right now. I will add some buckles so that they are adjustable.

Overall, I have got to say that this was an amazing adventure and Mike and his family were extremely welcoming. They fed us and would have housed us as well if we didn’t need to get back to our own family. Lovely experience that I will definitely do again.

[eltopo]

Awesome stuff again Switch! Again love to see this stuff, looks like an amazing trip! Gear looks great as well and bag is great!

[tvshooter]

this should be x-posted in the "you know you're addicted. . ." thread. but seriously, great stuff. this is next level superdenim stuff right here folks. makes me wanna go huntin for some ole denim. i'm in a military town. . .there's gotta be tons of old stuff layin around somewhere.

[aho]

^Best series of posts in quite a while....Let the hunt begin! I used to be surrounded by old abandoned farms back home in Michigan, may have to do a little breaking and entering sometime...

[Sansome1877]

A.B Elfelt with sewn suspender buttons, Hit up those farm houses Aho!!! Crazy long post rnrswitch(nice job)

[Sansome1877]

Not a bad idea. I'm for anything that encourages people to learn fun knots.

Friction hitch knots would be especially useful in this application. Trucker's hitch could be good too.

I found a long length of 1870's rope, I'm going to try out some of these knots.

[pacioli]

2x1 righty.

Is much else known about Wo?

I think this is the piece that you were talking about. It is light weight, some one should be able to tell if it's two by one denim?

[rnrswitch]

Sansome,

What do you think of that non denim twill fabric piece that was found? Does that oxidation stain on the fabric look like a rivet was there? At closer inspection it looks like a small corroded rivet is still there. If so would that almost have to be a levis garment? maybe a jacket, but that piece does look a lot like a fly portion.

[rnrswitch]

Pacioli,

Any places you know of that are currently making 2x1 denim?

[entertainment!]

Sansome,

What do you think of that non denim twill fabric piece that was found? Does that oxidation stain on the fabric look like a rivet was there? At closer inspection it looks like a small corroded rivet is still there. If so would that almost have to be a levis garment? maybe a jacket, but that piece does look a lot like a fly portion.

Since that looks like copper oxidation (being blue-green) and other metal pieces on jeans, like shanks, were usually made of ferrous metals (since they rust), I would guess that is a rivet.

[roy6]

Great desert shots, rnr & Mike. Nice to see denim & duck getting dusty, and with historically accurate dust.

That belt looks really interesting. Look out, if there's any Levi's material in there LVC will try to buy it and put a reprod 1878 denim scrap belt in their next collection.

Rnr-did you put up more pics of the denim bag you made anywhere?

You will have some (plus) rep when I am able.

[Sansome1877]

I don't think that is a rivet, the tunnel we went into started in the early 1880's and could have been used into the early 1890's. If that is a rivet it's possible that it's after the levi patent ran up? It kinda looks like a shirt or jacket piece? I recently found a large piece of shirt with the same type of fabric, I will take a picture of the shirt piece and post it. What is known about WO? I can see how the pants evolved over a two to three year period, I still don't know who Wo worked for, If it was Heynemann, we could be looking at the first Can't bust em? I can post some pics of the Wo denim used. The piece in the book on page 103 is an early Wo piece probably from sometime in 1875.

[entertainment!]

A.B Elfelt with sewn suspender buttons, Hit up those farm houses Aho!!! Crazy long post rnrswitch(nice job)

I just noticed that my statements about metals are contradicted by this photograph!

[rnrswitch]

Yeah, but that photo was doctored though. Hah.

[Sansome1877]

entertainment,

You were correct about the oxidation, I think what we are looking at on rnrswitches piece, is the back side of a shank button with no pin. I think I'm correct in saying, the tube that holds the pin, on a shank button is made of brass or copper. The last picture of the A.B elfelt suspender button is yellow brass or bronze, this is why you see the oxidation. I find that a lot of companies in the mid to early 1870's used brass or bronze hardware. BTW I found that Wo used the reversed top fly button, just like the Neustadter Bros standard pant.

[Sansome1877]

Yeah, but that photo was doctored though. Hah.

Smoke and mirrors.

[pacioli]

Any mill willing can run 2x1. But since you mentioned currently, and I assume you mean selvage, the answer is the Japanese mills are doing it consistently. I don't shop Japanese lines so I am not sure exactly which one. Should not be hard to find out if you are in the market for some.

Pacioli,

Any places you know of that are currently making 2x1 denim?

[pacioli]

Mike, is there any marketing on the garment to link it to Wo? I wonder if this fall under Wo's patent as I understand it. His description calls for the reinforcement to be a part of the pattern piece but that old-timey technical writing is always hard to understand so I can be wrong.

Also I have a couple of outlandish theories about Wo that I cannot fully substantiate. Let me list out some findings and musings related to Wo:

1. He did make a relatively good amount of money, if not a small fortune, as a result of the patent. From the Switchmen Journal (vol 7, issue 1, 1893) article "Fortunes in Patents": "An ingenious Chinaman, of San Francisco, named Cheang Quan Wo, made quite a pile of money out of a gusset for reinforcing the pockets of overalls." Whether it is by making overalls, selling the rights, or working out a similar deal like Jacob Davis and Levi Strauss....that is not clear.

2. The above article was repeated in Sept 1893 issue of Current Literature: A Magazine of Record and Review and Wo's name was butchered into "Cheang-Wang-Wo"

3. It is possible his name was spelled in English in various ways as he was obviously not born with an English name. But for the patent we know "Cheang Quan Wo" is used.

4. Is he Mr. Cheang or Mr. Wo? Either one could be Chinese last names, although variants of Cheang is more popular as Chung or Chang or Cheng, with and without the "g."

5. Is he of the leather shoe maker known as Quan Wo & Co. on 315 and/or 317 Clay Street? Don't think this was a popular name (?).

6. Is he of the Quan Wo Chong Company that was involved in 2 or more lawsuits in the 1890's (defendant against Lee Chuck; and Plaintiff against Laumeister related to bales of cotton)? If so getting those cases would shed much light.

You could mistake this for the Greenebaum brothers, but if the leather reinforcement pieces come from the seam, it's the Wo patent. I've seen both Greenebaum and Wo use leather, denim and I would assume duck reinforcement pieces ( i've never seen them in duck) I think both Greenebaum and Wo had a advantage over most companies, Levi had the rivet and Greenbaum had the pantent for any kind of material that over lapped the pocket seem. This meant that Greenebaum brothers could make a regular pair of pants and slap leather triangles over the pocket corners ( not much harder than just adding a rivet) Wo, was a little more difficult to make, next to Greenebaum. Levi, Green and Wo enjoyed this advantage for only a few years. Some time in 1877 or 78 the Arrow head stitch came into play and I believe leveled the playing field. We have found this Arrow head stitch on 5 companies so far( arrow head stitch is on page 71) I think this is one of the reasons for the Greenebaum brothers teaming up with Sachs and Freeman in 1878. Well the research continues.

[rnrswitch]

Any mill willing can run 2x1. But since you mentioned currently, and I assume you mean selvage, the answer is the Japanese mills are doing it consistently. I don't shop Japanese lines so I am not sure exactly which one. Should not be hard to find out if you are in the market for some.

I am not particularly looking for 2x1 denim, but someone who was interested in making an exact replica probably would.

[Sansome1877]

Dude, great information. I think we came 1 or two steps closer, to finding out what company Wo worked for. Did Wo sell his patent ( I don't think so) I made a mistake, I meant to say Sherlock Pacioli. Plus rep!

[Sansome1877]

[Sansome1877]

[roy6]

Awesome.

I always thought there would be elaborate, painstaking methods of cleaning old denim, until I saw a video of Lynn Downey at Levi's washing some 1880s jeans in a bucket of tapwater.

Funny to see a dish-sponge in the mix too.

Does any of this stuff ever fall apart when it is washed?

[Sansome1877]

Awesome.

I always thought there would be elaborate, painstaking methods of cleaning old denim, until I saw a video of Lynn Downey at Levi's washing some 1880s jeans in a bucket of tapwater.

Funny to see a dish-sponge in the mix too.

Does any of this stuff ever fall apart when it is washed?

I saw that same video, you wouldn't want to sink wash it ,if it has dry rot. I'm going to post a duck levi piece tomorrow that has blank rivets and Levi stamped suspender buttons ( looks like Levi ,for a short time didn't stamp the rivets in 1873?)

[Sansome1877]

This pant has a split back, a back pocket, a watch pocket and sewn suspender buttons. The last pictures are part of the leg. This piece needs to be cleaned up a lot more.

[rnrswitch]

That paint thinner shit is crazy.

[Sansome1877]

That paint thinner shit is crazy.

You can't begin to unfold it and clean the pant, without dissolving the tar first. I wonder if someone will see this and say (you idiot your supposed to use _ _ _

_ _ ? )

[glimmertwins]

You can't begin to unfold it and clean the pant, without dissolving the tar first. I wonder if someone will see this and say (you idiot your supposed to use _ _ _

_ _ ? )

Have you tried naptha? I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make vs the mineral spirits with decades old tar deposits but personally I have had a lot of success breaking down sometimes harsh and sticky gunk with naptha/Goo b Gone/lighter fluid. I think they are all similar but I know naptha dries out quicker than mineral spirits and I have used it to clean motor oil soaked into wood to prepare a vintage guitar body for a refinish.

[Sansome1877]

Have you tried naptha? I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make vs the mineral spirits with decades old tar deposits but personally I have had a lot of success breaking down sometimes harsh and sticky gunk with naptha/Goo b Gone/lighter fluid. I think they are all similar but I know naptha dries out quicker than mineral spirits and I have used it to clean motor oil soaked into wood to prepare a vintage guitar body for a refinish.

Good idea, I will try this out. Where do I buy this naptha/goo ?

[glimmertwins]

Good idea, I will try this out. Where do I buy this naptha/goo ?

Pretty much any home improvement store. At my local home depot it's in the same aisle as the paint thinners/strippers. Goo B Gone and the several products like it are normally just a rebranded version of naptha that are more expensive because it's marketed for a specific use. Save yourself a few bucks and just get plain old naptha which can be purchased cheap in similar packaging to your mineral spirits in the photo below. A common application of it is to clean something old that you want to repaint since oils prevent adhesion for most paints.

...also for anyone who has ever tried to clean crayon up(in other words, you have kids), Naptha is your tool - just be careful using it on things like latex wall paints as sometimes it takes a little bit of that with it too....but it works like a charm cleaning it off of furniture, floors, etc.