Jeans of the Old West: A History

[Sansome1877]

When you do it, please make it "dogs and children". My cat might have shat on the Velvets, but that's definitely not as bad as coloring in the top of a 1953 Fender Champ in red (non water-soluble) felt tip.

Gorgeous duck, Mike.

Ouch!!!! I can't think of anything significant, that my girls have destroyed? What did you do with your 1953 fender Champ? I'll post a picture of the outdoor couch, the dog destroyed last night. Slab I like the hound picture, the mouth on him, reminds me of Pac Man(the video game)

[glimmertwins]

When you do it, please make it "dogs and children". My cat might have shat on the Velvets, but that's definitely not as bad as coloring in the top of a 1953 Fender Champ in red (non water-soluble) felt tip.

Gorgeous duck, Mike.

I have a blackface Vibrolux Reverb with half of the grillcloth a discolored yellow because my dogs marked all over it. Not only does it obviously look like urine, it smells like urine from a few feet out too. It still sounds great but you almost have to play as loud as possible so your not fooled into getting close enough to smell it....I think I would have been more pissed if they had fucked with my VU box set.

[Sansome1877]

Seems like pets and musical equipment don't mix.

[Ness]

Sansome, from the book I've already figured out what Sansome means...what does 1877 mean?

[Sansome1877]

If you wanted to drink whiskey on the job(back in the day) this is how you got it done. Ness, 1877 is one of my favorite time periods for duck and denim work pants.

[roy6]

Mike was nice enough to send me some denim and cloth samples he found in his explorations. I think these are pre 1900? Age range, Mike?

I finally got time to take some decent macro shots:

#1

#2

#3

#4

#5

#6

#7

#8

#9

#10

[roy6]

#11

[glimmertwins]

Wow - great fabric swatches. I can't believe how well preserved most of them are considering their age. #2 has an insane amount of character in it.

[rnrswitch]

That plain weave 2x1 (?) Indigo/natural fabric is nice.

Wow what shoddy camera work. Can we get someone with a little experience?

[glimmertwins]

Agreed - that's just begging for neg rep.

[roy6]

I know, I know. Sorry about the blurry shots. Mike also sent along a sample of that 100+ year old whiskey, and my hands got a bit shaky.

[Sansome1877]

Nice photos Roy, It sounds like you liked the Whiskey!! Most of the pieces are from the 1870's and 80's. A couple pieces of denim, are from the early 1890's. The streaked 2x1 denim looks like early Levi or Neustadter.

[roy6]

That plain weave 2x1 (?) Indigo/natural fabric is nice.

Gee roy, your camera work is awesome. But then again, it always is. Why can't I be more like you?

You mean photo #9, second over in the group shot? I really like that one too. It has a great feel, a bit stiffer than the other fabrics but still nice and smooth. Mike- what did the original garment you found made out of that look like? Is that the one you said might be an early Levi's shirt?

Yes, that whiskey was pretty alright. Why don't you go and find some more of that?

[Sansome1877]

Picture #2 was a pant leg from the mid 1870's, could be a levi 2X1 or a Neustadter pant piece. BTW that 2x1 pant leg was wraped around an air pipe. #9 was a bottom part to a shirt, I cant tell the maker? I only have the bottom of the shirt(no pockets on the piece I have)

[Sansome1877]

[Sansome1877]

[roy6]

I should not be lazy and look it up, but since I'm probably the only person who doesn't know:

What is 2 x 1 denim?

[Paul T]

I should not be lazy and look it up, but since I'm probably the only person who doesn't know:

What is 2 x 1 denim?

2 x 1 has 2 weft threads per warp thread... I hope I've got it the right way around. 2 x 1 configuration is used mainly for light weight denims and looks.. different (lighter?) from the normal pattern (Where's ringring when you need him), 3 x 1. Lots of those lovely early Cone deeptone denims are 2 x 1.

Magnificent photo, Mike!

[rnrswitch]

2x1 denim is woven by having one warp yarn go over two weft yarns and then under 1 weft yarn, then repeating that again. If you look at it from the weft's perspective then the weft yarn goes over two warp yarns then under one warp yarn. This is all done in a twill weave. You will see a similar pattern when looking at a typical 3x1.

The fabric that I like is a plain weave which has two warp yarns woven over one weft yarn and then under one weft yarn. Over under over under, etc. I think it is called a 2x1 plain weave, but I ain't positive.

[glimmertwins]

I should not be lazy and look it up, but since I'm probably the only person who doesn't know:

What is 2 x 1 denim?

Thanks for asking...I felt like a chump for wanting to ask.

[Sansome1877]

all we knew a year or two ago was that 2 by 1 was thinner, usually softer and finer in texture to the normal 3 by 1 denim. the 3 by 1 is thicker and more heavy duty for work ware. But I bet the 2 by 1 would be the pants to be wearing in the middle of summer in the desert, I would think it would be cooler to wear in the heat.

Ralph over at Cone ended up educating us as to the weft and warp aspects of the cloth....it really is a speciality all to itself.

[roy6]

^^ Chumps are in.

I wonder did Cone reproduce any 2 x 1 denim for the early LVC repros?

Rnr told me he stopped into Mister Freedom last weekend and they had their new CPOs in the lighter fabric, the model called "off duty", and the fabric reminded him of fabric #9 above. I'd seen some pictures of it and thought the same thing. Mister Freedom calls the material a "plain weave indigo/white fabric", comparison pics below.

The fabric for the MF CPO must be a Sugar Cane manufacture- Mike, did you send any samples of #9 to Japan?

#9

Mister Freedom CPO 'Off Duty'

[Sansome1877]

#9 is a piece of fabric I found almost a year ago, I never sent a piece of fabric like #9 to Japan before. I will take a picture of the piece that I have, it's the same piece that I cut your swatch from.

[Sansome1877]

#9#2

Top picture is a piece I just found in one of my scrap bags, I also found another piece of the # 9 fabric, it's part of a pull over. I will clean this new #9 piece up and post it. The second and third photo here is the # 9 piece that I cut your swatch from, Roy. The last photo is the #2 piece that I cut your swatch from, it's part of a mid 1870's pant leg that seems to be a Levi piece, just like the Levi 2x1 pant that's on page 39(jeans of the old west)

[entertainment!]

I was in Kinokuniya yesterday and picked up a copy of a new issue of Lightning called "All About Vintage Denim." I got on the train and cracked it open and there on one of the first pages were pictures of Mike and his wife. At least, I think so, since all the text is in Japanese. Several spreads of items from his collection too, including shots of some items he has shared with us on this thread. Great issue in general.

[Paul T]

^^ Chumps are in.

I wonder did Cone reproduce any 2 x 1 denim for the early LVC repros?

]

LVC do have some amazing 2 x 1 on their dungarees etc but I'm not sure if it's produced by Cone.

Incidentally, I was amazed how similar some of the 1910s(?) denim Mike so kindly sent me, was to the Kurabo repros. I am pretty certain this is natural indigo.

Mike, did Ralph Tharpe get any DNA info on the early samples you sent him? I owe him a phone call, must ask him more questions...

[lenn]

picked up a copy yesterday. it is amazing, so much info in there...

[Sansome1877]

LVC do have some amazing 2 x 1 on their dungarees etc but I'm not sure if it's produced by Cone.

Incidentally, I was amazed how similar some of the 1910s(?) denim Mike so kindly sent me, was to the Kurabo repros. I am pretty certain this is natural indigo.

Mike, did Ralph Tharpe get any DNA info on the early samples you sent him? I owe him a phone call, must ask him more questions...

I don't think Ralph has done any DNA samples yet, I am really interested to see what Ralph comes up with, when he gets all of those tests done on the denim I sent him. I think the youngest piece of denim I sent you Paul dates to about 1895, I did send you a piece of 2x1 denim that Roy6 has marked as sample #2, it dates to about 1875-77. Not sure about the natural indigo, I would think that most of the samples of denim I sent you, should be natural indigo? Entertainment thanks for the chocolate you sent, my girls left me a little sample, I was on a trip when the chocolate arrived. Can't wait to see the lightning magazine!

[entertainment!]

Here is an image of the first spread:

[Sansome1877]

Thanks for posting those pages entertainment! How many pages are in the magazine, that show my collection?