Holy Grail Denim

[benw]

Hello, I'm a New York-based journalist seeking to identify the "ultimate" kind of jeans, if such a thing exists, and thought I'd put the question to this forum. To be more specific about what I mean by ultimate, I'll give a couple of examples from other categories. For cars, it's not a Rolls-Royce, or a Ferrari, or a Lamborghini. It's a Bugatti. And not just any Bugatti, but a Bugatti Veyron. For wine, it's not a Mouton-Rothschild '82, or even a Mouton-Rothschild '45 (though that comes close), but rather a Cheval Blanc '47: That's the particular combination of chateau and vintage most revered and coveted by connoisseurs (it has often been called "the wine of the century"). In other words, I'm talking about things that are exceedingly rare and expensive, often esoteric, and a level (or two, or three) above the usual suspects that the average, untutored person might think of as "the best." So, to come back to jeans, what would be the equivalent? Should I be focusing on custom/bespoke jeans from, say, 45 rpm or Ernest Sewn? Should I be focusing on vintage jeans, or are such jeans, unlike vintage wines, purely for collecting (rather than wearing/drinking)? Should I be focusing on raw selvedge jeans from Japan, made by an artisanal producer involved in the creation of the fabric itself (such as Momotaro)? I'm interested in jeans that merit their cult status for substantive reasons--a particular kind of denim, or quality of craftsmanship, etc.--rather than because they are are merely fashionable, or dripping with thousands of dollars of diamonds. So, what do you all think? When it comes to jeans, what is The One?

[cheep]

DiorXEternal...

[Westbrook]

I think you're going to have a hard time finding "the one," but these are as highly regarded (at least around here) as any I can remember...

Discussed in this thread:

http://www.superfuture.com/supertalk/showthread.php?t=9429

[poly800rock]

agreed.......

[calvin1663]

say, 45 rpm or Ernest Sewn?

first thing: do research...comparing earnest sewn and 45rpm are like comparing a civic to a ferrari

[artificialsky]

There are no "ultimate" jeans.

Nor an "ultimate" car.

Nor an "ultimate" wine.

[lilldavid]

god damn westbrook!

[Wilkes]

lazy, bad journalism.

nice massive block of text you got there.

[ryker01]

I'll take the 47 Lafleur over the Cheval Blanc anyday of the week

[chucksvintage]

Of course Vintage but I am a Vintage snob and Sugar Cane because sugar cane rocks

[Swych]

I'll take the 47 Lafleur over the Cheval Blanc anyday of the week

you're saying that because you've tried both? i'm just curious how you decided because a big part that makes the item holy grail precious is that its almost unattainable? if you tried them both then wouldn't you seek something more?

[tangerine]

DiorXEternal...

ftw...

Seriously, though, given the variations in individual style and body type, there can be no universal holy grail. One "size" does not fit all, either metaphorically or literally.

I disagree with the fundamental concept of an ultimate anything. It implies a uniform aesthetic that does not exist.

It also implies that there is end to desire, unless "ultimate" is understood to be ephemeral.

[ayn]

dior x eternal ftw...

[red]

dior x eternal ftw...

qft...............................

[lithiumsys]

Definately Levi's XX.

Article: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/08/02/BUG94K9ET51.DTL

[chucksvintage]

It really is all inspired from vintage.

[poopslush]

As far as modern jeans go, I'd say 45rpm, Dior x Eternal, Samurai

[ringring]

I don't think there is one 'grail' from current jeans in production. It's very much a matter of personal taste. I've looked for 'The One' myself, and after years of searching, must declare myself a happy polygamist in that respect.

If you are looking at vintage jeans, then it has to be anything by Levi's, as old and as close to deadstock as you can get. If you ever find a pair of Levi's from the 1870s, then you can certainly claim to have found The Grail.

Otherwise, when browsing vintage emporiums, such as Banana Boat in Harajuku (or indeed, Chuck's Vintage or Mr Freedom) and seeing piles of deadstock vintage 501s, I often think to myself, "this is as good as it gets".

In terms of current production jeans, I find it hard to think past anything much better than Sugarcane's Hawaii's SC40400. It feels like the mighty Sugarcane company decided to flex their muscles and see what they could do to produced the most labour intense jeans possible.

Consider the following : natural indigo dyed cotton/cane yarns, selected and mixed to produce that amazing striated denim. Single stitched all the way, including hand felled seams (anyone who has a basic knowledge of sewing will know what that entails). Very dense stitch count, something you would look for on bespoke shirts, not jeans. Hand embroidered arcuates. Bound fly facings, making the inside of the jeans very clean (there's a tiny bit of overlocking on the hips).

Itchy, stripey jeans. Not easy to wear, just as the Veyron isn't your everyday car.

Where the 'Cane's might fall flat on your criteria, is that they are not that rare.

Otherwise, you could look at the Yen handloomed jeans. They are made on extremely narrow selvedge looms. So narrow that you can only fit half a leg per length, as opposed to the usual practice of 2 legs per length. Far more rare than the Hawaii's.

[denimdestroyedmylife]

great post, as usual, ringring.

your descriptions of the sc40400n are what led me to those jeans. after a year and half of wear and a few washes, i can say without hesitation that they are the most comfortable jeans in my rotation. not just because of the generous cut, but the denim now has a very soft, almost velvety, texture.

[rocco]

I'm wearing the SC40400N right now! I love them, very comfortable indeed. Can't stop feeling and looking at them. Worth every yen! Indeed, the ultimate in today's jeans I would say.

[synthi]

Ditto the above, this s what led me to the Hawaii's. I'd also add the 45rpm Jomon as simply sublime in every way. I love them greatly.

[ringring]

Glad to see a couple of other 'Cane connoisseurs enjoying their Hawaii's

I would be curious to know if any other current production jeans surpass them in sheer nerdpoints. (although Kiya's wedding suit probably crowns him King of the Denimnerds).

[wEstSidE]

Glad to see a couple of other 'Cane connoisseurs enjoying their Hawaii's

I would be curious to know if any other current production jeans surpass them in sheer nerdpoints. (although Kiya's wedding suit probably crowns him King of the Denimnerds).

bpw 2greatness

[ryker01]

you're saying that because you've tried both? i'm just curious how you decided because a big part that makes the item holy grail precious is that its almost unattainable? if you tried them both then wouldn't you seek something more?

I have tried the Cheval. I actually had it next to the 49 which was showing much better. Never had the Lafleur which is why it would be my grail. Getting genuine bottles of these wines is more ellusive than most people understand. For every real bottle there are probably 25 fakes on the market.

[salaami]

dead-stock 501's. you cant beat the original originals. as for modern jeans, in my humble opinion i would say samurai, as they make denim so thick and heavy it would most likely make the best "rugged workwear"(and dont start ragging me about the lack of resilience inherent in 100% cotton thread).

[snafu]

dior's strip bley clair jus damm nice jeans, if i had the money and size 26 popped up i would :

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150167217766

[andewhall]

Tange....I was going to say different 'strokes for different folks'....but yours sounds so much better.

[Hansell]

Where would you guys say Imperial Dukes rank among raw denim compared to say eternals or samurais

[Westbrook]

Where would you guys say Imperial Dukes rank among raw denim compared to say eternals or samurais

Well, between the first and third phases of the moon, Imperials clearly outrank Eternals and Samurais by at least three and a half degrees. At other certain times, such as during Ramadan or while undergoing an apendectomy, Samurais are the favorites. However, it's important to remember these rules DO NOT apply during the Leap Year (or intercalary year). On February 29, Eternals reign supreme.

Hope this is helpful.

[frideswide]

Jeans are fundamentally different from wine or esoteric race cars -- they are not in essence luxury items: they are proletarian workers' clothing, and that very fact forms the core of their appeal. The transformed question of "What is the ultimate in proletarian workers clothing?" can be seen to be suspect on the face of it.

With a few exotic exceptions, a pair of Samurais or Sugarcanes, even though they cost a lot in today's money, are not really superior in terms of materials or crafstmanship to a pair of deadstock Levis, Lee, or Wranglers from the late 1940s. Sometimes it's more difficult or costly to reproduce the original methods, and that is largely responsible for the seemingly high cost.

In some sense asking what the 'ultimate' in anything is endorses the consumerist ethic (i.e. aspiring to have "the best"). Jeans are if anything anti-consumerist, in the sense that you can wear the same pair every single day and not buy any other item of clothing.

If the original poster is indeed a journalist, I agree with the reply which said 'lazy, bad journalism'. More likely it is just some 16 year old asking the same tired question: "hey you guys, what is, like, the best jeans out there..?" If you are a journalist... then adopt an air of some humility: read this forum for at least a year, get the books and the magazines mentioned here (Paul T's book, all the Lightning mags, etc). Preferably make a trip or two to Japan. THEN you might finally have an interesting article to write... instead of some throwaway article in an airline magazine heralding the 'hot new trend'...