Selvedge Denim

[eldave04]

Recently I have run into some jeans that claim to be selvedge - namely Evisu - but have no selvedge line (chain stitching to prevent ravelling) along the inseam. I though the whole point of buying expensive selvedge denim was that they are made in small quantities and vary between lots. But with no chain stitching along the inseam I wonder if they are being made in larger quantities, instead of being made by the narrow looms producing the fading patterns unique to each pair of jeans and thereby defeating the whole purpose of the selvedge denim in the first place. However the inseam is still stitched with normal thread - it doesnt really look like it would prevent ravelling. Someone please enlighten me.

[dickhead]

think capitalism...and then think somemore.

I'm too lazy to tell you how it relates to your question but I hope you can think well enough.

I hate everything and everyone.

[Yakboy Equals Nurturer]

It's cheaper to make jeans out of denim that has been woven on projectile looms, which is what Evisu currently seems to be using in their more widely available pieces. The last time I looked at a pair of Evisu jeans the quality was definitely nowhere near what it used to be.

When people refer to selvage denim they are generally referring to denim that has been woven on shuttle looms. The process is slower and produces less material, but the denim is regarded as superior in terms of durability and texture. 45rpm, PRPS, 5 Easy Pieces and APC all currently produce jeans with denim manufactured in this way. The seams should look something like this:

See this tread for denim info / interesting discussion btw. misteraven and ringring:

http://superfuture.com/city/supertalk/index.cfm?page=topic&topicID=611

Edited by Yakboy Equals Nurturer on Nov 5, 2004 at 02:11 PM

[dickhead]

watched Conan last night and Jay-Z was guest and he was wearing a baggy Evisu along with his preppy tops. What's with all these big name established rappers/producers/entrepreneurs/designers/blah blah blah trying to look all "black preppy"? It started with Kanye West and P.diddy now even Jay-Z is looking like a fool.

Oh well, it's just my opinion.

I hate everything and everyone.

[eldave04]

How can you tell the difference between shuttle and projectile loom denim. Personally the whole allure of Evisu was that they make the highest quality denim around, that will fade according to how I wear it. Denim is so complicated.

[BOATS]

evisu used to be great because of its quality, now it's turned into nothing more than a status symbol, especially for wack rappers, thus it's everywhere and the quality has gone to shite because they know they can get away with it: their new consumer completely oblivious to what quality denim is....

I AM LEISURE.

[eldave04]

So if I want better quality denim i should go with some kind of japanese selvedge other than evisu ie, PRPS. Are you sure that all quality has gone downhill - they must still make some better pieces. btw - Jay Z is not wack - he played the game and won big time.

[dickhead]

nobody said he was wack...I just said he looks like a fool now because of the new look.

I hate everything and everyone.

[eldave04]

i meant BOATS

[dickhead]

he didn't mention Jay-Z either......

I hate everything and everyone.

[Guest]

I like selvage denim A LOT. I love the clean finished, open pressed side seams and the way they side seams tend to twist after washing.

But just having a selvage edge doesn't mean that the quality of the denim is necessarily any better than a non-selvage pair of jeans. Selvage has no effect on durability, nor texture - those are determined by weight and weave. It is simply the way the denim fabric is finished at the edges. (It's not a stitch by the way, just a coloured yarn on the loom that makes the stitch-like look).

In terms of quality - by most garment manufacturing standards, a fabric that has LESS variantions between each dye lot is usually considered to have a higher quality control. I agree though, the quirkyness of small production is charming, but it doesn't necessarily mean the fabric is better. Lots of companies make great denims on a large scale (Kurabo, Tavex, Legler etc) and the complex development of large volume, high quality, high tech denims has a fascination all of it's own.

Oh and don't worry about the edges ravelling or fraying in non-selvage jeans. The chances are that they won't. Overlocking is quite durable.

There's quite a few companies that make selvage jeans to add to those already mentioned above, including:

DDC Lab

Paul Smith - I think he has a 'Red Ear' sub label of selvage jeans.

Gap

Nudie

Lee - some of the jeans styles are 'half selvage'.

I just buy jeans I like. If they have selvage great. If not, it's OK too.

[misteraven]

you guys should really be looking at 45rpm. Their denim is nuts.

shuttle loom denim has a weird twist to them that makes the legs on a pair of pants sort of twist a little. though other manufacturing methods seem to now be trying to mimic this look.

[raijin]

45rpm is defintely quality.

Can't go wrong with cosmic wonder jeans either.

I completely agree with BOATS, Evisu's quality has gone down and the designs were never that great to begin with. Its time to move on.

Edited by raijin on Nov 8, 2004 at 11:17 PM

[dickhead]

never really dug that ugly "handpainted" thing at the butt too...too loud for me. And it just screams for attention.

I hate everything and everyone.

[Guest]

Re : Evisu's quality- Evisu is split into at least 2 different manufacturing parts. The first is the Japanese line, which presumably is made in Japan using Japanese and some, I believe, Italian denims. Then there's the European Licencee, which designs and makes it's Evisu product in Italy. I don't know if they have another collection for the USA etc. The denim I've seen on the Japanese and Italian Evisu jeans has been pretty good, but the washing is 'not all that' compared to what's available on the market today. Style-wise too, there's not the variety that other brands offer. It's grown a lot more mainstream, and lost some of it's 'strictly-denim-lovers-only' cache, but I've not noticed a big dip in denim quality from today's collections and those of several years ago.

Re : Selvedge

The 'chain stitching' isn't a stitch as such. It's just a coloured weft thread. All denims (and all woven fabrics in general) have a selvedge edge, it's just that some are not as clean or as pretty as Evisu's. eg Many denims' selvedge leaves a short 'fringe' of warp threads at each edge.

Re : Fading

All denim will fade according to how it is worn, regardless of whether it's a 'selvedge' denim or not. How you wear and wash your denim will have at least as greater effect on the look as the denim itself. Of course, high quality denim may have more interesting nuances for denim afficionados, such as double ring spun (ring warp +ring weft), the size and frequency of the ring weft, multiple cold dying, broken twills etc. Many large scale, high quality denims have over 100 different coloured dyes in them, and are dyed 6+ times to produce a larger chromatic scale. Again this does not depend on the selvedge at all and there's no less 'art' or skill needed to produce high volume high quality denim, than to produce low volume 'artisan'denim. It's just different ways to achieve similar things.

Re : Hard wearing

Again, this is nothing to do with the selvedge edge at all. It's more to do with the weight of the denim (heavier usually lasts longer), type of weave, density (yarn count) and how much the industrial washing has effected it. (Chemical bleaches, potassium sprays, handbrushing etc will all weaken denim). The quality of the actual cotton will also pay some part, although I'm not entirely convinced that many people would be able to tell the difference between a bale of cotton from the USA, Egypt, Africa, China or Pakistan, let alone the differences in the cottons after spinning, weaving, dying, sanforising and post sewing washes.

Re : Twist

This is a characteristic that is created by the twill weave. It's not really indicative to the quality of the denim. Many high quality, large volume denims are 'stabilised' by machines that stretch and sanforise the denim before delivery to minimise the twist effect. Also a weave like broken twill was designed to stop this twisting. Twisting is fine on a 501-like style, but less desirable if a manufacturer has to make skirts, jackets and other pant styles where a twist is not required.

Selvedge - I personally love selvedge jeans, but it's not necessarily indicative of the quality of the jeans. What I mean is that you can get many great jeans that do not have a selvedge outside leg seam.

Other Selvedge brands: Just to add to those brands already mentioned above:

Paul Smith - does a selvedge collection called 'RedEar' or something like that

Nudie - selvedge jeans made in Italy, designed in, I think, Sweden.

Firetrap - have a small collection of selvedge

DDC Labs

Gap -nice light blue selvedge

Lee - some jeans have a green 'half selvedge' which is a classic Lee detail.

Can anyone list any more?

[ringring]

Re : Evisu's quality- Evisu is split into at least 2, probably 3 different manufacturing parts. The first is the Japanese line, which is made in Japan and generally excellent albeit pricey. Then there's the European Licencee, which designs and makes it's Evisu product in Italy, and China using Japanese and some, Chinese (yes, China makes a lot of selvedge too) and Italian denims..

The denim I've seen on the Japanese and Italian Evisu jeans has been pretty good, but sometimes, the washing is 'not all that' (and occaisionally downright awful) compared to what's available on the market today. The competition has grown substantially in the last few years.

Now, a loads of 'repro' companies now offer selvage and the detailing (like two-colour twin stitching, hidden back pocket rivets etc) that was once Evisu-only realm.

Style-wise too, there's not the variety that other brands offer. Evisu's grown a lot more mainstream, and lost some of it's hardcore, 'strictly-denim-lovers-only' cache, but I've not noticed a big dip in denim quality from today's collections and those of several years ago. My guess is that Evisu's increased popularity has just made the brand value dip for those fashionistas who crave 'rare' brands (ie more of a perceived drop in quality than an actual drop per se).

One last thing to note, "Made in China" does not necessarily mean a dip in quality, not these days. Although the Chinese made Evisu's tend to be poorer quality than the Japanese jeans.

Re : Selvedge/Selvage

The 'chain stitching' isn't a stitch as such. It's just a coloured warp thread. All denims (and all woven fabrics in general) have a selvedge edge, it's just that some are not as clean or as pretty as Evisu's. eg Many denims' selvedge leaves a short 'fringe' of weft threads at each edge.

Selvage denim mills are quite capable of producing the exact same quality denim in also wider 'non selvage' versions. They use the same yarns, same dyes and same weave patterns, it's just the width of the cloth and the edge finish that changes.

Re : Fading

All denim will fade according to how it is worn, regardless of whether it's a 'selvedge' denim or not. How you wear and wash your denim will have at least as greater effect on the look as the denim itself. This by default, results in ALL jeans being unique to the wearer over time.

Of course, high quality denim may have more interesting nuances for denim afficionados, such as double ring spun (ring warp +ring weft), the size and frequency of the ring warp (fiammatura), multiple cold dying, rope dying, mercerising, broken twills etc. This does not depend on the selvage, just the type of thread used and the dye process.

Many large scale, high quality denims have over 100 different coloured dyes in them, and are dyed 6+ times to produce a larger chromatic scale. ALL denims vary in shade between Lots. Again this does not depend on the selvedge at all and there's no less 'art' or skill needed to produce high volume high quality denim, than to produce low volume 'artisan' denim. (In fact, one could argue that it has taken much more cumlative experience and research to produce modern high quality denims.) It's just different ways to achieve similar things.

Re : Hard wearing

Again, this is nothing to do with the selvedge edge at all. It's more to do with the weight of the denim (heavier cloth usually lasts longer. eg. a cheap 14oz pair of Carhartts will probably have greater abrasion resistance and tear strength than an expensive pair of 9oz 'selvage' 45rpm's), type of weave, density (yarn count) and how much the industrial washing has effected it. (Chemical bleaches, potassium sprays, handbrushing etc will all weaken denim). The quality of the actual cotton will also pay some part, although I'm not entirely convinced that many people would be able to tell the difference between a bale of cotton from the USA, Egypt, Zimbabwe, China or Pakistan, let alone the differences in the cottons after spinning, weaving, dying, sanforizi

[ringring]

I used to love the 'ugly handpainted' gull logo on the back pocket. I think it was a nod to the history of Levi's - apparently there was a period in history during a war (don't remember which war), where some Levis had a painted logo on the back pockets to save on cotton thread.

I have never seen a pair of Levi's in the flesh with painted logos though.

[dickhead]

Actually the gull logo is very closely resembling some of the really old Levi's jeans that had that pattern on the butts standard on every pair of jeans, but it wasn't painted. There's this book out there called Denim: the history and something something(can't remember...I browsed through the pages a few months ago at borders) and this book is a great denim/jeans encyclopedia for any aspiring denim expert. It was in this book that I read all about the history of the Levi Strauss company and how Evis(Evisu's old name when it just started. Which is Levi's without the L in case anyone actually doesn't know that) started and how they produce their denim. This book is pretty thick and it has every single thing you can imagine that's about denim. Right-hand twill, left-hand twill, broken twill, ring spun, open end etc...all affect the look and feel of a pair of jeans. Just having a look at the amount of terms associated with denim strikes you that denim is indeed a really complicated fabric.

I hate everything and everyone.

[M4TM]

yeah... i've heard people talking about what dickhead's talking about... i think evisu bought a bunch of levi's old looms and tried to steal their name and all...

anyways, according to the evisu website, all of their jeans (or should i say genes) are selvedge. check http://www.evisu.com/

i still like their stuff, despite it being "played"

strange highs and strange lows

[Yakboy Equals Nurturer]

ringring: The 'chain stitching' isn't a stitch as such. It's just a coloured weft thread. All denims (and all woven fabrics in general) have a selvedge edge, it's just that some are not as clean or as pretty as Evisu's. eg Many denims' selvedge leaves a short 'fringe' of warp threads at each edge.

I could be mistaken, but my understanding was that any selvedge / selvage fabric (denim or otherwise) is, by definition, one where the edge of the material is woven closed due to a 'single' weft thread being sent back and forth by a shuttle. If the edge of the material is frayed and stitched closed, it's because a projectile loom was used, cutting the weft each time it was sent across, no?

This isn't to say that excellent quality denim cannot be made on a projectile loom, its just that the care and attention (not to mention the time and reduced output) required to produce a fabric on a shuttle loom is a good proxy for a high standard having been applied all the way through from the selection of raw materials to construction and wash.

As for Evisu trying to 'steal Levi's name', it's more a case of Levi's stopped making denim of as high a quality as they had done in the past and Evisu tried to replicate the classic Levi's jean. I don't think that Evisu were the first Japanese company to do this, but they were the first to get a lot of mainstream attention in the West (particularly in the UK in the late 90s) for it. Now that the brand has become even more mainstram, it seems they've let the quality drop in some lines. They're not producing solely in Japan / Italy anymore either. The last pair I looked at had a made in China tag.

Edited by Yakboy Equals Nurturer on Nov 9, 2004 at 01:57 PM

[eldave04]

I m really confused as to the difference between projectile and shuttle selvedge, other than the manufacturing process - how can you tell if you have never seen either before?

Evisu doesnt make all products with selvedge denim - the european line (Evisu EU) doesnt even use selvedge and is still super expensive, just one of the costs of going mainstream I guess.

[ALVIN]

i love the vintage reproduction 501's, there awesome!

[Convoy]

a lot of light shed on denim. good stuff

I SPY WITH MY EYE

[dickhead]

No, Evisu wasn't trying steal Levi's good name or market share. The reason the company Evis started was because Levi's stopped making vintage(selvedge etc.) denim that the founder loved so much. The old Evis denims all come with the famous red Evis tag which is basically the Old LEVI'S tags without the L. The Japanese love parody names and designs but too bad they had to change their name and stop using the identical LEVI'S tag sans L. Another reason is because after 1971, all Levi's jeans stopped using the Big E in their tags. Notice all your levi's jeans tag is spelt LeVI'S instead of LEVI'S?

As for all your questions about selvedge etc. it's good to look up the web or buy that book if your a denim obsessed freak or fashion designer.

I hate everything and everyone.

[ringring]

Yakboy - as far as I know, selvage means the woven edge of a fabric. Any fabric, whether it is constructed like most Evisu denim or whether it has a fringe - as long as the edge doesn't unravel, like the horizontal cut edge of a roll of fabric, then it's still called the selvedge. As noted above, on Evisu's website, they claim all their denim is selvedge, even if they make many styles where the outside leg seam is overlocked rather than selvedge edged.

I had a quick double check in a couple of online dictionaries, and it seems to confirm this.

eldave04 wrote: " I m really confused as to the difference between projectile and shuttle selvedge, other than the manufacturing process - how can you tell if you have never seen either before?

Evisu doesnt make all products with selvedge denim - the european line (Evisu EU) doesnt even use selvedge and is still super expensive, just one of the costs of going mainstream I guess.

Unless you actually see the selvedge or full width of the cloth, I don't think you can tell the difference between the two types of denim. Like I said before, the quality of the denim is not determined by the way the edges are finished.

In fact, at least one 'selvage' denim manufacturer offers the full (56") width denim using the same yarn, dying and weave as their narrow width 'selvage' articles. For all intents and purposes, the two denims are identical apart from the width and edge finish.

Also worth thinking about is that these days, you may be getting better quality 'non-selvedge' denim than the 'selvedge denim' you could buy say 10 years ago. If you get a chance to look through the collections of the Italian denim mills like Legler, or Tavex, Spain or the Turkish mill, Orta Anadulu then it's obvious how much denim has developed from the early 90's (when Evisu started).

As for the European Evisu being super-expensive, I guess a part of it must be to cover the cost of the licence and paying royalties to Evisu Japan, and the rest of the price is just the high margin that premium denim brands can carry.

However, assuming denim qualities and washing being more-or-less-equal, I would baulk at paying the same price for a pair of non-selvage jeans from Evisu. Because fabric consumption is far lower on non selvage jeans, I would expect to pay significantly less.

Personally, I think if you are looking for a Levi's 501 Big E repro, then go for a selvedge jeans (preferably in a raw, unwashed state). Otherwise, just buy whatever jeans you like the look of.

Edited by ringring on Jan 13, 2005 at 02:35 PM

[Bing Bing]

Kind of off the subject, but does anyone know how to prevent jeans from leaving a blue stain on my new white kicks?

[Dolo]

Put tape along the inside of your jean cuffs.

[Yakboy Equals Nurturer]

ringring: as far as I know, selvage means the woven edge of a fabric. Any fabric, whether it is constructed like most Evisu denim or whether it has a fringe - as long as the edge doesn't unravel, like the horizontal cut edge of a roll of fabric, then it's still called the selvedge.

I see...thanks for clearing that up. I guess the confusion arises from some people using the term 'selvage denim' to refer only to material woven on shuttle looms. (Although I don't think I'd have ever tried to find out anything about weaving were it not for this use.)

[ringring]

Quote:

ringring: as far as I know, selvage means the woven edge of a fabric. Any fabric, whether it is constructed like most Evisu denim or whether it has a fringe - as long as the edge doesn't unravel, like the horizontal cut edge of a roll of fabric, then it's still called the selvedge.

I see...thanks for clearing that up. I guess the confusion arises from some people using the term 'selvage denim' to refer only to material woven on shuttle looms. (Although I don't think I'd have ever tried to find out anything about weaving were it not for this use.)

--- Original message by Yakboy Equals Nurturer on Nov 11, 2004 10:50 AM

No worries. I know that 'Selvage' and 'Non Selvage' makes it easy to catagorise the different types of denim edge finishes.

I think the main difference between the two aren't so much in quality, but just in actual physical width. "Selvage Denim" is usually 28-34" wide and "Non-Selvage Denim" is usually 56-58" wide.

Edited by ringring on Feb 3, 2005 at 01:55 AM

[docdoom]

Hi,

Ringring, thanks for sharing your knowledge. Just going to add that as far as i know the evisu gull was added for the same reason that the name was changed from Evis - ie because they had stitched arcuates previously that, like thier name, bore too close a resembalence to Levis. As such, they painted over them with the gull.

The 501s you refer to are the 1944 wartime model. I quote from aero clothing website (great for vintage lee and levi jeans) 'As part of the war effort, the Arcuate design is hand painted on the back pocket which uses a single thread stitching for the same reason.'

thanks