Workshirts

[glimmertwins]

I have the Jcrew one too and it's a really nice shirt that looks good and is super comfortable - just maybe a bit oversized. Otherwise, it's a good buy if you don't want to drop serious coin but like the look of a chambray workshirt.

[rnrswitch]

I can agree with both of you. $200 is way too much for a shirt and if someone doesn't have it then there is no reason to put yourself into debt. But I feel like if I have the extra cash I would like to support somewhat "artisan" brands that are not sweat laborish.

The shirts are nice and the idea of replacing the buttons is great. It adds a little more character to them.

[Rivet Head]

China is the new Japan...

[Happy Hooligan]

I own both the jcrew and the gap.

The Jcrew is far better than the gap in terms of details.

I found mine on ebay nwt for only $40.00

I'm going to try to make one soon. I'll post pics when I'm done.

[dralfonzo]

plus chinas not that far away from japan so that has to count for something

miami isn't that far away from guantanamo

[the_ming]

Shit's still made in china.

there's "made in china" and "made in china for export to japan" and for some reason there is a huge difference in quality between the two.

for instance: disposable convenience store umbrellas in japan are made in china, but they last a long time and are well made. the ones here in the US? also made in china but you are lucky if they last a week.

also uniqlo gets most of their clothes made in china but they are better made than other brands that source from china.

another example is my mizuno eurocomp judogi, it's not as nice as the made in japan ones, but it is very durable and very well made.

my theory (just a theory i have zero evidence) is that japan is a big market for chinese factories, and that japan has a reputation for not buying shoddy goods. therefore factories that are exporting to japan are careful to put out a higher quality product. since the american consumer has a reputation for buying shoddy goods, no such care is taken for goods produced for american companies.

i would love to hear any alternate theories, or to take this discussion to another thread if needed.

[Doug C]

But I feel like if I have the extra cash I would like to support somewhat "artisan" brands that are not sweat laborish.

Yea, I agree with that sentiment too... I'd probably look at it the same if my money situation was better.

[Doug C]

Just to add to your post the_ming, there is china made walmart crap and well made, chinese made Jcrew items.... we (the US that is) get both but they are no where near the same, quality wise.

[geneticdrifter]

there's "made in china" and "made in china for export to japan" and for some reason there is a huge difference in quality between the two.

for instance: disposable convenience store umbrellas in japan are made in china, but they last a long time and are well made. the ones here in the US? also made in china but you are lucky if they last a week.

also uniqlo gets most of their clothes made in china but they are better made than other brands that source from china.

another example is my mizuno eurocomp judogi, it's not as nice as the made in japan ones, but it is very durable and very well made.

my theory (just a theory i have zero evidence) is that japan is a big market for chinese factories, and that japan has a reputation for not buying shoddy goods. therefore factories that are exporting to japan are careful to put out a higher quality product. since the american consumer has a reputation for buying shoddy goods, no such care is taken for goods produced for american companies.

i would love to hear any alternate theories, or to take this discussion to another thread if needed.

sounds very logical. the Japanese would most likely have better and longer relationships with the chinese factories.

PEACE

[You Ren]

China is a big country that has the full spectrum of 3rd world sweatshops to 1st world factories making BMW's, Mercedes, Intel chips and Boeing components. It's a country with a large low-cost labour pool, which means you can get exquisite craftmanship for a decent price, or passable quality for an extremely low price.

So it's hard to generalise about Made in China quality these days. You have to look carefully at the material and fabrication yourself

But that's why we have brands. A brand is a promise of a quality experience, it's why we're willing to pay more for some Chambray shirts over others.

Ultimately quality comes down to the brand's fabric supply and factory sourcing, and their quality control process. I have visited Chinese factories with japanese buyers and their wabi sabi eye for detail and quality is the main reason why they tend to work with the top end of town. They are willing to pay more because the customers back in japan support higher prices. They also favour suppliers that are already working with other japanese brands and come with a personal recommendation.

The difference in price between mass retailers like UNIQLO, J. Crew and the MIJ labels is all about the economies of scale. UNIQLO has outlets all over the world and their business model is built on low price for quality basics, but not artisan quality, because they rely on high frequency of sales. Premium & luxury brands ensure their quality by incinerating a lot of the product that doesnt meet their standard... LV and nike are famous for this - they wont donate it to charity because this would lower the brand's reputation for quality

But I'm convinced that if you guys want artisan quality chambrays at a decent price, it's definitely possible to get it made in China.

Shangers should probably weigh in here... he sources material & fabrication for international apparel brands. In fact just last night we were talking about the ridiculous price for MIJ work shirts and leather belts. If you guys are interested we could try and get some made here, to Sufu standards.

[rnrswitch]

I don't necessarily think that everything made in china is crap and even if everything made in china is supreme quality I still would not want to buy from there. The labor standards are many times subhuman and I don't want to support it.

And before anybody chimes in and says, "Los Angeles has slave labor too." I would have to agree, but workers still have more rights in the States than in China and a better chance of changing their working conditions here rather than there.

If the chinese were making phenomenol goods and getting paid a decent wage I would be all for buying chinese.

I also support the idea of America producing goods rather than importing them. The largest job growth sector in the states is the service industry and I would like to see that change.

[rnrswitch]

I was also wondering where the "chainstitch runoff" on the gussets originated. Many japanese repro shirts have this feature, but is it a "vintage" feature or something that has been added. I have not seen this on vintage workshirts, but I also don't have a ton of expertise on this subject and am relying mostly on pictures of shirts.

[glimmertwins]

,,,,I still find it humorous(and on the serious side of things completely sad) that unions at Wal Mart are more successful in China than they are in the US. Not trying to negate any earlier made points - just commenting that the US needs to get it's act together in certain areas given China is a known hotbed of workers being deprived of basic rights.

[Doug C]

I was also wondering where the "chainstitch runoff" on the gussets originated. Many japanese repro shirts have this feature, but is it a "vintage" feature or something that has been added. I have not seen this on vintage workshirts, but I also don't have a ton of expertise on this subject and am relying mostly on pictures of shirts.

ha, I've wondered the very same thing. Just assumed it was an occassion thing that originally may or may not have been intended but just left on by some seemstress' and then modern day repro makers seeing it as a plus, and extra feature if will. But that's been my assumption... anyone know?

[rnrswitch]

,,,,I still find it humorous(and on the serious side of things completely sad) that unions at Wal Mart are more successful in China than they are in the US. Not trying to negate any earlier made points - just commenting that the US needs to get it's act together in certain areas given China is a known hotbed of workers being deprived of basic rights.

If this is true, it really is sad. Wal-mart represents everything wrong with America.

[therelativity]

China is a big country that has the full spectrum of 3rd world sweatshops to 1st world factories making BMW's, Mercedes, Intel chips and Boeing components. It's a country with a large low-cost labour pool, which means you can get exquisite craftmanship for a decent price, or passable quality for an extremely low price.

So it's hard to generalise about Made in China quality these days. You have to look carefully at the material and fabrication yourself

But that's why we have brands. A brand is a promise of a quality experience, it's why we're willing to pay more for some Chambray shirts over others.

Ultimately quality comes down to the brand's fabric supply and factory sourcing, and their quality control process. I have visited Chinese factories with japanese buyers and their wabi sabi eye for detail and quality is the main reason why they tend to work with the top end of town. They are willing to pay more because the customers back in japan support higher prices. They also favour suppliers that are already working with other japanese brands and come with a personal recommendation.

The difference in price between mass retailers like UNIQLO, J. Crew and the MIJ labels is all about the economies of scale. UNIQLO has outlets all over the world and their business model is built on low price for quality basics, but not artisan quality, because they rely on high frequency of sales. Premium & luxury brands ensure their quality by incinerating a lot of the product that doesnt meet their standard... LV and nike are famous for this - they wont donate it to charity because this would lower the brand's reputation for quality

But I'm convinced that if you guys want artisan quality chambrays at a decent price, it's definitely possible to get it made in China.

Shangers should probably weigh in here... he sources material & fabrication for international apparel brands. In fact just last night we were talking about the ridiculous price for MIJ work shirts and leather belts. If you guys are interested we could try and get some made here, to Sufu standards.

I agree with you, You Ren.

I am interested in the project - if you guys could make some quality shirts using linen, high quality print or other traditional fabric, i would be very happy to make an order

[therelativity]

I know, rel... I asked Nathan what he can get and haven't heard back. The first site I linked sells it by the yard, but it is pricey. The latest (of a few) shipping fiasco has me thinking I should just start making my own clothes

Wow, Lance, that is pricey! Please do post photos. FYI, Lance, Nathan has a real problem making shirts out of someone else's fabric. Not too sure why.

You made a beatifully crafted bag. Now, clothes! You can do anything, Zissou!

[zissou]

Wait, you're suggesting that I make the shirts and sell them?? That's just crazytalk! Sheesh, don't put really great ideas like that in my head or I just might do it.

I agree with the sentiments of MiC goods. In some respects, goods can be made inexpensively and quickly in China, but you get what you pay for. Alternatively, China is one of the few places where there is a very large pool of skilled garment makers. This just doesn'e exist in the US anymore. I know of one American company called Nau, who makes beautiful outerwear all in China in factories that they approve. Garbstore is another great company that does this.

So, anyone who tries to flat out say that MiC is BAD, doesn't know what they are talking about. I once owned some leather dress shoes that were made in Italy, and they were garbage. In my opinion, well-made, and poorly-made garments can be made anywhere.

[Shangers]

China is a big country that has the full spectrum of 3rd world sweatshops to 1st world factories .

Quoted for truth.

I don't necessarily think that everything made in china is crap and even if everything made in china is supreme quality I still would not want to buy from there. The labor standards are many times subhuman and I don't want to support it.

I also support the idea of America producing goods rather than importing them. The largest job growth sector in the states is the service industry and I would like to see that change.

Even though I represent US, European, and Japanese companies making products in China. I agree. I would always rather buy locally, but sometimes it is cost prohibitive, or style and branding make me turn a blind eye.

If this is true, it really is sad. Wal-mart represents everything wrong with America.

Couldn't agree more. When I go home I refuse to shop there. That said, I am from a manufacturing town. Furniture and textiles, most people lost their jobs early on to manufacturing going to China. Some lost it in the latest recession, my father being one of those. However, when people start complaining about their jobs going to China, I just point out the Wal Mart parking lot, and ask them why they continue to support the outsourcing of their jobs. 90% of those complaining are shopping there.

You Ren asked me to take a look at this page, and I think everyone is making fair points, but there is a lot of misinformed people making comments as well. The notion that the majority of these factories exporting goods to other countries are using slave labor or they are being deprived of rights is becoming the exception not the norm. When I first came here about 7 years ago, there were a lot of factories that you could tell were exploiting their workers, and of course, we did not use them.

Since that time there have been very strict labor laws enacted, as well as foreign companies enacting their own labor and social compliance policies. These are done by independent auditors from other countries such as Taiwan, HK, and Japan and they look at everything from the number of toilets and fire extinguishers per employee, to standards for ages, wages, holiday time, and overtime payout. (overtime being 1.5-2x normal wages depending on city, and holiday time being 3x normal wages). If you think these employees are forced to work that time, you are kidding yourself. Just like when I worked in the factories in the US, these guys want that overtime, and are not happy about it when things slow down.

As far as the small artisanal companies making the products we love. I agree there are some great products out there. However, even some of our favorites are making products in China. I have the Sugar Cane Down vest that I bought when I was in Tokyo at Hinoya last year. Wore it for 3 months before I checked the tag on the inside pocket. Sure enough. Made In China. I paid 200+ for it. At first, I was a bit pissed off, but then I had to laugh at myself considering my job. In the end, I have worn it everywhere, and put some hard wear into it at that and have had no problems.

I forget who it was that posted about a lot of the laborers in Japan being foreign, Chinese among them. I think it was Miz maybe in the '"so I am having a pair of jeans made" thread. That is true. I was inspecting a factory in Osaka, and received a phone call from my office in China when I was on the manufacturing line, and spoke in Chinese. The workers started whispering to each other in Chinese.

One thing that can't be glossed over is the cost of living for these people. You can't really compare a Chinese wage to an American or Japanese wage because it is much cheaper to live in Zhejiang China (one of the richest provinces in China) than it is to live in New York, Tokyo or Osaka. You can see that in a small level for Made in US products. Look at Post O'all selling workpants for $350 made in New York vs Pointer selling work pants $35 made in Tennessee. Cost of living is a small part of the difference in cost. Pointer has used Cone in some of their products just like Post O'alls. There are small details that help out Post O'all, but the main thing is branding. I am not knocking it. I own both brands.

Anyway, I think a lot of companies manufacturing over here are socially responsible and have helped implement policies for the good of Chinese workers. They are still producing nicely made products. In the end, if you have a problem buying Made In China, I think it is a personal issue, and one you are entitled to. I just want to make people realize it is not the slave labor and such that you hear about all the time on the news. Most of the factories I work with here, are MUCH nicer, than the ones in the US. Mainly because they are newer.

The ironic thing is that You Ren and I just had this discussion a few days ago. We have been planning on doing a Chinese brand for the Chinese for about a year, and have been looking at sourcing different fabrics from Cone and Okayama, etc... We mainly wanted to produce stuff for the Chinese with all the details and stuff that we look for when we buy products. It had been thrown out there that we could maybe do some stuff for our Sufu guys as well, but with the stigma on here about MIC, we thought it would still be better to focus locally and see if we can develop a market for workwear in China. Anyway, long post, but had to get that out there.

[Christmas In A Submarine.]

since we've somehow meandered into this topic:

I agree with rnr and zissou alike, particularly when it comes to Nau. They are one of the few companies I know of (apparently Garbstore is another) who truly pay attention to the whole line of production for each one of their products and are actually willing to answer questions about why they chose a particular factory over another. So while I would agree with rnr that supporting unconscionable things is, well, unconscionable, I would also say that if certain companies go to the trouble to suss out the good from the bad it's my responsibility to hear them out and consider their products. Besides: if you don't support the companies who ARE doing good business in China/elsewhere then you'll end up with a bunch of Wal-Marts.

And on top of that, Nau makes some fantastic clothing.

[rnrswitch]

Shangers and You Ren, If y'all are going to put your personal stamp of approval on a line of clothing and the factory they are manufactured at I would be willing to buy the items. I am all for supporting good work conditions. My problem is that, for the most part, I have no good way of knowing the actual conditions. I try to play the odds and assume that if something is made in switzerland, germany, USA, japan, and a few other countries that the working conditions are acceptable.

I still have that notion of supporting locally produced goods. America exporting and not importing. America putting Americans to work, etc.

[Shangers]

Wait, you're suggesting that I make the shirts and sell them?? That's just crazytalk! Sheesh, don't put really great ideas like that in my head or I just might do it.

I agree with the sentiments of MiC goods. In some respects, goods can be made inexpensively and quickly in China, but you get what you pay for. Alternatively, China is one of the few places where there is a very large pool of skilled garment makers. This just doesn'e exist in the US anymore. I know of one American company called Nau, who makes beautiful outerwear all in China in factories that they approve. Garbstore is another great company that does this.

So true. It's sad to see that a lot of great factories have fallen by the wayside. I remember growing up (and I am not old), every year my mom would go down to the work clothes depot in downtown. Kinda like a Woolrich or something. Anyway, you could find Chambray workshirts and khakis for like $10-15 Made in the USA. No branding, just stamped colors and whatnot. She would pick up a box of this stuff for my dad that he would beat all to hell for a year getting grease and ripping them up. He is an electrician and designed the machines and fixed the machines for the big textile machines doing fabric for furniture. Now you can't find any of those those old shops. When I see some of the pictures of the vintage stuff you guys find, I get a bit nostalgic and remember when they could be had for $5-10 new.

Shangers and You Ren, If y'all are going to put your personal stamp of approval on a line of clothing and the factory they are manufactured at I would be willing to buy the items. I am all for supporting good work conditions. My problem is that, for the most part, I have no good way of knowing the actual conditions. I try to play the odds and assume that if something is made in switzerland, germany, USA, japan, and a few other countries that the working conditions are acceptable.

I still have that notion of supporting locally produced goods. America exporting and not importing. America putting Americans to work, etc.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. There is certainly reasons to be guarded, but as Zissou and Christmas said, there are different levels of factories and we will make sure we are using the best. Like I say, we were mainly looking at doing this for the local market, but if it takes off and you guys are interested, we will definitely make sure you guys are informed via photos and policy or whatnot the types of factories we use. I still love my Buzz Rickson Chambrays and my Post O'all chinos, but I think it would be nice to bring out something with that same style and attention to detail, that is a bit cheaper, so guys like Salaami don't feel bad about beating it all to hell on a job site.

Btw, we have also discussed bringing in Made in the USA and Made in Japan products to compliment the MIC for our local guys. We are just looking to have a well rounded shop and build a brand that can stand next to the brands we love. I hope that we can do some collabs with Pointer or Toyo, and import fabric as well as using locally made fabrics to have a balanced shop that can also support some of those US brands. Unfortunately, both of us have full-time jobs and our free-time is limited, so it is taking us a awhile to get it started. Will keep all you guys updated if we make any moves.

[giantsdrink]

The ironic thing is that You Ren and I just had this discussion a few days ago. We have been planning on doing a Chinese brand for the Chinese for about a year, and have been looking at sourcing different fabrics from Cone and Okayama, etc... We mainly wanted to produce stuff for the Chinese with all the details and stuff that we look for when we buy products. It had been thrown out there that we could maybe do some stuff for our Sufu guys as well, but with the stigma on here about MIC, we thought it would still be better to focus locally and see if we can develop a market for workwear in China. Anyway, long post, but had to get that out there.

Thanks for joining the discussion (would have repped but I have to spread it around first) and contributing your expertise.

Best of luck with the brand, if you do decide to follow through with it. I for one, will be interested to see how it progresses, largely because I am interested in Chinese consumer sentiments. China is such a foreign market to me (no irony intended) and it's really interesting that you believe clothing with the details "we" look for, will have traction in that market. That says to me, that there may be all kinds of consumer similarities that Western perspectives don't consider.

[Happy Hooligan]

Well here's my first attempt at making a shirt...

I used a vintage 50's pattern. It was a good practice run. It's got a lot of issues, but I learned a lot.

I'm going to try to make a work shirt this weekend...

[rnrswitch]

A side from being slightly large on you it looks good from the outside. Now lets see the inside. That is where the craftsmanship takes place.

All in all it looks good, especially for a first try. You matched up the plaids well and the collar looks pretty good as well.

[Aries]

Hey chaps, it's my first foray into chambray shirts and I'm wondering if anyone has any recommendations.

I really like this - http://www.superdenim.co.uk/prodpage.asp?productid=291

Anyone have experience with real mccoys' shirts? Are they good quality? Worth the price?

[rnrswitch]

I would say, not worth the price. Real Mccoys makes great stuff, but for your first chambray maybe get a buzz rickson or a sugarcane. They are cheaper and "similar" quality.

Also, I get sick of the Japanese military repro stuff. "USN" on the shirt seems a bit cheesy to me. Just get a plain chambray shirt from SC or BR.

[coleslawyum]

^^Yeah, thats pretty much top of the line when it comes to craftsmanship. The quality for mostly all RMC (granted there are a few turkeys) are the best I've ever handled. Is it worth the price? A $250 chambray shirt? Do you even have to ask?

[mpcec]

Shangers and You Ren, If y'all are going to put your personal stamp of approval on a line of clothing and the factory they are manufactured at I would be willing to buy the items. I am all for supporting good work conditions. My problem is that, for the most part, I have no good way of knowing the actual conditions. I try to play the odds and assume that if something is made in switzerland, germany, USA, japan, and a few other countries that the working conditions are acceptable.

I still have that notion of supporting locally produced goods. America exporting and not importing. America putting Americans to work, etc.

Seconded, I look forward to seeing what you guys come up with.

[Aries]

Thanks for the advice chaps. Due to being in the UK, it's very hard to get BR or SC chambray (customs SCREW me when I order from the US).

After discussion with the owner of superdenim.co.uk, I grabbed the Joe McCoy chambray, as it apparently looks great after some fading, and as rnrswitch mentioned, it doesn't have that ostentatious 'USN' stamp.

http://www.superdenim.co.uk/proddetailbig/371f.jpg