What is the difference between the different premium denim mills?

[Louche]

I've worked with denim retail and wholesale for seven years, but I've never been introduced in a greater extent to the production part of the denim industry, so I was wondering if somebody could shed some light on something I've been wondering about.

It seems pretty much all premium American denim brands use Candiani, Orta and Kaihara, and some of them also use Nisshinbo, Kurabo, Legler and a few others. I was under the impression that the japanese mills were more experimental and "different", but speaking with a couple of employees at one of the big American luxury denim brands, they said that Kaihara produced great basic denim, and that Candiani was the more experimental and creative of the two. At that point I realized that I really didn't know anything, and that pretty much all my knowledge was based on assumptions that I've probably picked up from people in the industry who like to pretend that they know about denim production. Or people that form an opinion based on their personal experiences with a couple of denim brands, without really being able to back their opinions with facts.

What factors does denim brands take into account when they decide which mills to work with?

Visual characteristics - Are there clear differences in the visual characteristics and how the denim fade if you compare the different mills, or is this more or less changing with every batch of denim they produce?

Lead Times - Obviously the Italian, Spanish and Turkish mills will provide shorter lead times for jeans cut, sewn and washed in Europe, but probably not to the same extent with the wash facilities in Kentucky and LA...?

Stretch denims - are some of the mills better at stretch denim than the others?

Raw denim - It seems most of the luxury denim brands use japanese mills for their raw look denim, is there any particular reason for this besides the cultural fascination with japanese raw denim?

Size - Which of these mills are the largest? Which of these are the more exclusive?

Prices - I would assume that Orta is cheaper than the Japanese and Italian mills, but is this accurate?

Other - I'm sure there are lots of other factors where I don't have the necessary knowledge to ask the right questions.

By searching this site for denim mill discussions, I find some people that argue that there really is no particular difference. But as pretty much all luxury denim brands to my knowledge use between 3 and 6 different mills, there must be differences. There would be no need for a single denim brand to use six different denim mills if there was no difference between the fabrics and the logistic and economic part of the production. But what are the differences? Is it even possible to generalize, or is it too complex and changing every season?

[tweeds]

bump because i don't know, and because i would love to find out.

[salaami]

intriguing question, cant wait to learn more...

[Paul T]

My knowledge is limited, and comes mainly from speaking to designers at Levi's, Lee, Diesel and a couple of others, but my impression is that most of the big mills can produce most finishes, but selection of them as suppliers is based on personal/business relationships, and their chosen specialism. For instance, Kaihara have produced sanforized selvage for decades, so if that's what someone is looking for, they'll go to Kaihara first. Kurabo seemed, afaik, to be one of the first big mills to specialise in natural indigo denim, so again they might be first choice for a lot of people for natural indigo denim. Diesel worked with Legler because they were close to them geographically, and they could come up with new finishes together; vf corp worked with Orta on their Bleubell reissues because Orta were keen to demonstrate they could produce high end, vintage-style denim, too.

In most cases, of course, the prime question is whether your supplier already produces a denim that's close to what you want, which can be tweaked to give you something new, without having to work out a denim from scratch, which hugely affects the price. In other cases, a mill will work up a new denim, and punt it to their best customer first, or else simply present it at a trade fair in the normal way.

I don't know much about pricing, but that's changing all the time, as companies like Kurabo open Chinese subsidiaries.

my next door neighbour is a fashion buyer for a huge, but pretty hip, high street chain. She should be coming round for dinner Friday, I'll pick her brains and follow up if I get anything interesting.

[unklesteve]

But as pretty much all luxury denim brands to my knowledge use between 3 and 6 different mills, there must be differences. There would be no need for a single denim brand to use six different denim mills if there was no difference between the fabrics and the logistic and economic part of the production.

...unless their production demands were significant enough that they needed to make sure they had a back-up production line in case of some kind of failure on the part of the chosen mill.

Dealing with OEM manufacturers can be an absolute nightmare, and it's generally always wise to have at least one backup in case a whole production run goes to hell.

I don't have anything to contribute to the rest of your questions, but I'm damned interested in hearing answers from someone who knows...

[Spastic_Koala]

I wish I could help you out, but I'm definitely interested in hearing answers.

[annacobra]

Innovative: I found indeed, that Kaihara and Kurabo have fantastic basics, but are not very innovative (=follow / creating fashion trends). European mills and even some Chinese are more innovative.

I worked with the previously mentioned mills before, and they are all good. Orta, Candiani and Legler are the most innovative, imo.

Innovative not equal good: Good means the denim looks good on all wash levels (= from dark to light), thus can be used for many styles and washings.

All brands like to work with as little mills as possible: you establish good relationships with mills, if you order a lot. Also u want to find the few ones, u can relay on. Every new mill is a risk.

All brands want to use as few denims as possible: This way they can avoid problems with minimum qties, which can be 5000yds or above. Therefore it is important the denim looks good on many wash levels (see above).

Differences: there is some differences between the mills, eg I like the ring effects on Kaiharas and Kaihara's consistency in quality. I don't go to their office for coated denims or grey denims. Kurabos have some good "masculin" denims, that means a bit a rougher structure. Candiani have a lot of funky stuff.

Price: between the above mills, they are all similar (between USD 4 and 6 per yard, roughly, but it can get more expensive)

Raw: People (= customers like SF folks) who like raw denims, like Japanese denim. That is the only difference.

I do not know of mills used for back-up. Production of denim has long lead times, so if you notice a problem with your bulk fabric, it's months too late to change supplier...

Stretch denim: the mill u chosse can depend on the kind of stretch u like: little stretch to a lot of stretch.

Exclusivness: Japanese mills are quite exclusive, as is their whole garment industry.

Factors:

1) price

2) consistency in bulk fabric production (little shade differences between lots can mean a lot of trouble)

3) minimums (small brands cannot afford big minimums)

4) qlties they offer: coatings, colored denims and innovative stuff: European mills.

5) yr customer: Japanese denim is en vogue at the moment.

6) forgot, and should have mentioned as point 2): yr existing relationship with a mill. Never change a winning horse.

7) leadtimes (depending on where your production is)

8) Kickback (some fabric buyers earn a little on the side, or like to go to certain nightclubs..)

9) Service (do mills send u sample ydg quickly, ho do the handle claims..)

10) ...well, dont know any more now...

BTW, seasons do not matter much. Mills don't change overnight.

[grooveholmes]

Bump b/c I'd be interested to learn more and it's been 4 years.