Just Saw Michael Moore's "Sicko"

[MilSpex]

as Milspex would rightly point out that the weapons used in gun crime are stolen/black market anyhow)

I wouldnt say that. What I would point out is that guns save a lot of lives/stop a lot of rapes every year in the US aswell. Most incidents arent reported because of fear of arrest but think how things could have been very different if just one other kid in the engineering building at VA tech had a gun.

[MilSpex]

Sounds like a royal fucking mess, especially as NZ is supposedly one of the most reformed modern economies in the world.

haha, where do you get your information?

[Double D]

Can't remember, read or heard it a long time ago. Hard to escape politics when your live-in girlfriend just finished a degree in the subject.

[Double D]

I wouldnt say that. What I would point out is that guns save a lot of lives/stop a lot of rapes every year in the US aswell. Most incidents arent reported because of fear of arrest but think how things could have been very different if just one other kid in the engineering building at VA tech had a gun.

Yeah, that sounds like a great recipe. Take several thousand weed-smoking, alcohol-swigging students, arm them to the teeth and give them housing on the same campus (10, if you couldn't tell).

I guess America will be fucked on the whole gun argument unless a major cultural change happens. Even that leftist nut Michael Moore managed to come to the conclusion that it was people, not the guns that do the shooting.

[blm14]

http://www.superfuture.com/supertalk/showthread.php?t=9851

[red]

i just hoot and holler and burn a ram and the lord baby holy ghost jesus god heals me right up.

[englandmj7]

I haven't read this thread and probably won't ( I can't stand M. Moore debates).........

I will note, however, that for plenty of us hardworking Americans, not only is there affordable healthcare (outside of my job, I was paying $85 a month for my wife for full coverage: her insurance recently paid every cent of a $60,000 surgery with no hassle), there is alot of virtually free healthcare. For instance, my job pays for 75% of my monthly medical fees, and I pay $26 a month; For uses, I pay a $20 co-pay for doctor visits, $50 for ER visits, and nothing for surgeries, etc. (no, I don't work for the state); for prescriptions, I pay something like 10-15%. Sure, there are lots of poorer people who can can't afford everything they need, but it isn't a hellacious overpriced mess like Michael Moore/liberal, socialist infrastructure supporters would have you believe.

In addition, I should note that my wife actually comes from a more socialist country where healthcare is virtually free (Ireland). She is appalled by their system and is more than happy to be paying for healthcare here. Many of the doctors there that are allowed to work in the public hospitals are appalling. She had a major surgery (as I mentioned above) where every doctor she went to in Ireland (4 in total) said that she would be in hospital for 4 days and have an enormous scar across her back as a result of the surgery. Here in the US, with the same surgery, she was out of hospital the next day, and you can't even see a single scar on her as a result of it.

[MilSpex]

I haven't read this thread and probably won't ( I can't stand M. Moore debates).........

I will note, however, that for plenty of us hardworking Americans, not only is there affordable healthcare (outside of my job, I was paying $85 a month for my wife for full coverage: her insurance recently paid every cent of a $60,000 surgery with no hassle), there is alot of virtually free healthcare. For instance, my job pays for 75% of my monthly medical fees, and I pay $26 a month; For uses, I pay a $20 co-pay for doctor visits, $50 for ER visits, and nothing for surgeries, etc. (no, I don't work for the state); for prescriptions, I pay something like 10-15%. Sure, there are lots of poorer people who can can't afford everything they need, but it isn't a hellacious overpriced mess like Michael Moore/liberal, socialist infrastructure supporters would have you believe.

In addition, I should note that my wife actually comes from a more socialist country where healthcare is virtually free (Ireland). She is appalled by their system and is more than happy to be paying for healthcare here. Many of the doctors there that are allowed to work in the public hospitals are appalling. She had a major surgery (as I mentioned above) where every doctor she went to in Ireland (4 in total) said that she would be in hospital for 4 days and have an enormous scar across her back as a result of the surgery. Here in the US, with the same surgery, she was out of hospital the next day, and you can't even see a single scar on her as a result of it.

word. People dont listen to me when I tell em this coz I`m not even American but good to hear it from one.

[MilSpex]

Absolute nonsense. Even the most minor necessary surgical procedures can cost upwards of $10,000 here in the US. Have fun trying to pay for that when you're making $20,000 a year. And "working hard" or "having talent" is completely beside the point. Many types of jobs, including most creative-type jobs, freelance, etc., simply do not provide insurance, and purchasing it for yourself is far more expensive than would be the case if it was built into your taxes.

See England`s post, bitch.

[englandmj7]

(Here in the US) I pay nearly $6000/yr for medical insurance...without stepping foot inside a hospital/clinic.

I'm afraid of getting sick, but not because of the illness.

I know for a fact that this is impossible. Sure you didn't mean $600? If you are paying $500 a month for medical insurance, there's something disgustingly wrong. I don't know a single person (working or unemployed) who pays over $150 a month; and that's for full coverage without deductibles, etc.

word. People dont listen to me when I tell em this coz I`m not even American but good to hear it from one.

Thanks. People spend way too much time bitching and not enough time looking at the facts. If the poorer population (the vast majority of whom are work-capable, but choose not to) were that worried about medical bills, they'd get a job with the state (who are basically obligated to hire anyone who applies) making $20 an hour sweeping highways and getting 95% free medicare. Plus, they have the $350 a month I pay (as well as millions of others pay) towards "medicare"............none of which I've ever benefitted from personally. On the other hand, they can get a plan like I was referencing before, whereby you have an approx. $1500 deductible, and you pay $75-100 a month for full coverage. Even on minimum wage, this is affordable.

[RAISED BY WOLVES]

. What I would point out is that guns stop a lot of rapes every year in the US aswell.

What the fuck??? Yeah you know....all those women walking around strapped up ready to blow the nuts off the first dude who trys it. Spex, you're cool with me, but on the really reals...don't speak about that which you clearly know not.

Yeah, that sounds like a great recipe. Take several thousand weed-smoking, alcohol-swigging students, arm them to the teeth and give them housing on the same campus (10, if you couldn't tell).

An army of Airjamie's....?

I know for a fact that this is impossible. Sure you didn't mean $600? If you are paying $500 a month for medical insurance, there's something disgustingly wrong. I don't know a single person (working or unemployed) who pays over $150 a month; and that's for full coverage without deductibles, etc.

Thanks. People spend way too much time bitching and not enough time looking at the facts. If the poorer population (the vast majority of whom are work-capable, but choose not to) were that worried about medical bills, they'd get a job with the state (who are basically obligated to hire anyone who applies) making $20 an hour sweeping highways and getting 95% free medicare. Plus, they have the $350 a month I pay (as well as millions of others pay) towards "medicare"............none of which I've ever benefitted from personally. On the other hand, they can get a plan like I was referencing before, whereby you have an approx. $1500 deductible, and you pay $75-100 a month for full coverage. Even on minimum wage, this is affordable.

England,

Compadre...Amigo....friend.

All the Cloak Cricket boots in the world won't help convince me of the numbers on this one.

I'm glad to hear that before you met me, you knew no one who paid more than a buck fifty a month.

How nice to meet you.

I am a member of the healthy New york plan. A plan designed to help subsidize the absurd monthly cost of healthcare where I live. This plan is only open to those who make less than $2,107 a month, which amounts to $25,284 a year. I barely qualify.

I pay 239.17 a month for my insurance through one of their "premium" providers (a budget version of Oxford), which is a price that has risen steadily the last 4 years (I believe it began at 169.00).

Many docters in New York city, and America at large (and I know you know this England) are simply ceasing to take insurance period. I understand the merits of private healthcare, but sadly, one of those that is most important (and I think American's value quite a bit) is the realtionship between patient, and primary care physician.

What many are failing to take into account in this disscussion is that the "human face" of healthcare in the united states and abroad has eroded to the point that the quality for most people who do pay for their own private healthcare in America is fast sinking to the level of NHS and the like as HMO's literally destroy what physician's themselves have worked so hard to build, in their quest to wrench control from the hands of doctor's. In addition, public health care is now beyond fucked, and the options that (substandard) private care offers, that you and I sit in our office chairs discussing, are so far out of reach as to be inconceivable to those who can not swing the cost, and whose employer's do not provide for them.

This is real.

This is not about partisan politics.

I want that recognized.

Big thanks to everyone participating and keeping it civil.

And one more thing....

FUCK MICHAEL MOORE.

[Double D]

England...

Being an annoying student of philosophy somewhat, liberalism and socialism are completely irreconcilable philosophies. An example of a liberal economist is Adam Smith, after all.

Please, please refrain from using bullshit American political understandings such as liberal=socialist=communist and that there is some kind of definable left/right scale in reality.

Cheers.

[chronoaug]

I make it a point to only use those 3 words(liberal/socialist/communist) if they're directly next to eachother. Not that they're the same thing, but it's more fun and i feel like a big man doing it. That said, i'm sure england knows the difference, i think it was a semi-joke/exaggeration.

The internet is a dangerous thing these days. With michael moore giving documentaries that young people go and see without any real study into the subject, they get political fever and go look up stuff online about it. Everyone is a politician since the iraq war and all those people also have websites and access to webforums with people who give anecdotal evidence and make arguments that others use as proof or facts. Not saying anything about the people here as i only read a few of the responses that aren't giant walls of text.

I do miss the days pre 9/11 where people who knew about politics knew them well, and the people that didn't know, didn't try to pretend they did. It is semi-good now because more people have a passion for what actually goes on, but it is frustrating how everyone is an expert by listening to cnn. Same thing happened with sports. 5-8 years ago, ESPN only broadcasted sportscenter to give you highlights and then the actual games. Now there is a show every hour where a bunch of analysts break shit down for you, making joe sixpack think that he knows everything about the sport.

I'm not actually responding to anyone or anything. I'm just bored and venting. Cheers

[englandmj7]

What the fuck??? Yeah you know....all those women walking around strapped up ready to blow the nuts off the first dude who trys it. Spex, you're cool with me, but on the really reals...don't speak about that which you clearly know not.

An army of Airjamie's....?

England,

Compadre...Amigo....friend.

All the Cloak Cricket boots in the world won't help convince me of the numbers on this one.

I'm glad to hear that before you met me, you knew no one who paid more than a buck fifty a month.

How nice to meet you.

I am a member of the healthy New york plan. A plan designed to help subsidize the absurd monthly cost of healthcare where I live. This plan is only open to those who make less than $2,107 a month, which amounts to $25,284 a year. I barely qualify.

I pay 239.17 a month for my insurance through one of their "premium" providers (a budget version of Oxford), which is a price that has risen steadily the last 4 years (I believe it began at 169.00).

Many docters in New York city, and America at large (and I know you know this England) are simply ceasing to take insurance period. I understand the merits of private healthcare, but sadly, one of those that is most important (and I think American's value quite a bit) is the realtionship between patient, and primary care physician.

What many are failing to take into account in this disscussion is that the "human face" of healthcare in the united states and abroad has eroded to the point that the quality for most people who do pay for their own private healthcare in America is fast sinking to the level of NHS and the like as HMO's literally destroy what physician's themselves have worked so hard to build, in their quest to wrench control from the hands of doctor's. In addition, public health care is now beyond fucked, and the options that (substandard) private care offers, that you and I sit in our office chairs discussing, are so far out of reach as to be inconceivable to those who can not swing the cost, and whose employer's do not provide for them.

This is real.

This is not about partisan politics.

I want that recognized.

Big thanks to everyone participating and keeping it civil.

And one more thing....

FUCK MICHAEL MOORE.

How about a REALLY shiny pair?!!?!?

I realize insurance can be appallingly bad in major cities. Moving to outside SF as opposed to being in LA lowered our premium significantly. Still, I'm just pointing out that there ARE plans out there that offer a compromise. You pay alot, but you are in NYC, and I am sure that for that kind of money, you have little or no deductible and have a pretty good coverage network. I shopped for my wife's plan for over a month and I swear to god when I tell you this, my wife pays $85 a month (entirely outside of employment; she doesn't get a cent from her job), has a $1500 deductible and is with a major health insurance company that operates on the entire west coast. I know there is a more affordable option for you, but it depends on how often you use the doctor. For me, I never go to the hospital, so a large deductible and small monthly premium is alot more suitable. Either way, you can simply use strong healthcare benefits as a criteria in searching for a job. There are always options.

England...

Being an annoying student of philosophy somewhat, liberalism and socialism are completely irreconcilable philosophies. An example of a liberal economist is Adam Smith, after all.

Please, please refrain from using bullshit American political understandings such as liberal=socialist=communist and that there is some kind of definable left/right scale in reality.

Cheers.

I simply enjoy making off-handed comments towards liberals whenever possible.

[RAISED BY WOLVES]

How about a REALLY shiny pair?!!?!?

I realize insurance can be appallingly bad in major cities. Moving to outside SF as opposed to being in LA lowered our premium significantly. Still, I'm just pointing out that there ARE plans out there that offer a compromise. You pay alot, but you are in NYC, and I am sure that for that kind of money, you have little or no deductible and have a pretty good coverage network. I shopped for my wife's plan for over a month and I swear to god when I tell you this, my wife pays $85 a month (entirely outside of employment; she doesn't get a cent from her job), has a $1500 deductible and is with a major health insurance company that operates on the entire west coast. I know there is a more affordable option for you, but it depends on how often you use the doctor. For me, I never go to the hospital, so a large deductible and small monthly premium is alot more suitable. Either way, you can simply use strong healthcare benefits as a criteria in searching for a job. There are always options.

I simply enjoy making off-handed comments towards liberals whenever possible.

Fairplay.

I'm a little bitter because of recent trials and tribulations in the world of the covered (me), the non-covered (my beautiful, intelligent, Hard working, girlfriend) and the Employer in his attempts to cover his employees (my pops).

I hate liberals too.

About the same amount as I hate Jews.

[MilSpex]

What the fuck??? Yeah you know....all those women walking around strapped up ready to blow the nuts off the first dude who trys it. Spex, you're cool with me, but on the really reals...don't speak about that which you clearly know not.

what and you do? Its a fact that a lot of women and good people in America pack and its estimated tens of thousands of rapes/murders/robberies each year are stopped because of this. It goes under the radar coz these people dont report the incidents because they dont want to go to court for pulling a gun on a guy with a knife.

Safest place to be is at a gun show. Nobodies gonna try shit coz everyone is armed. Think about it, it makes sense.

[Sayword]

it was sufu safe by comparing heathcare by different countries, but this is dangerously getting political.

It's a good/interesting movie, whether you like moore or not. I'd like you all to see it, then comeback and really give me your opinion. It only takes 30 minutes to download (on cable), or no more than an hour tops and is really good. Hit me up for it.

[Tiranis]

5char

Edited May 21, 2015 by Tiranis

[red]

Safest place to be is at a gun show. Nobodies gonna try shit coz everyone is armed. Think about it, it makes sense.

i dont know. when it comes to safety, i think id rather be at a dolce & gabanna show.

worst case scenario: some gay guy bitch slaps you for insulting his wardrobe.

[MilSpex]

You're the guy in the army, right?

Nah, I`m not in the Army. Wish I could get in tho. Wanna fuck up some arabs.

[poly800rock]

I know for a fact that this is impossible. Sure you didn't mean $600? If you are paying $500 a month for medical insurance, there's something disgustingly wrong. I don't know a single person (working or unemployed) who pays over $150 a month; and that's for full coverage without deductibles, etc.

Thanks. People spend way too much time bitching and not enough time looking at the facts. If the poorer population (the vast majority of whom are work-capable, but choose not to) were that worried about medical bills, they'd get a job with the state (who are basically obligated to hire anyone who applies) making $20 an hour sweeping highways and getting 95% free medicare. Plus, they have the $350 a month I pay (as well as millions of others pay) towards "medicare"............none of which I've ever benefitted from personally. On the other hand, they can get a plan like I was referencing before, whereby you have an approx. $1500 deductible, and you pay $75-100 a month for full coverage. Even on minimum wage, this is affordable.

not really true. i'm not insured now, but the plan i was going to get was the lowest on blue cross's todem poll and was $300 out of pocket, highest of the deductables, etc. This is independent not with a company.

My friend quit his job and is going to school again. Insurance for his entire family was $1500 a month until he got covered with his job. Now he's about to head to med school and is putting his kids on CHIP and him and his wife are around $200 a month.

I don't think american healthcare is terrible, i certainly like the choice options, single payer seems like a better idea though, universally covering everyone to a certain extent would be ideal.

[headcoat]

Originally Posted by MilSpex

Crime rates in the US have been going down for 20 years thanks to more cops and bigger prisons.

The book Freakonomics reveals how this assumption is false. The surprising truth is the federal legalization of abortion, and its social impact that was felt when the aborted inner-city children would have come of criminal prime age in the mid to late 90's when crime dropped drastically.

[isoform]

The film... the Nixon recording, the personal stories of supposedly insured people and those who couldn't get insurance for retarded reasons, and insurance company insiders' testimonies were most impactful...

Even though focusing on the systems in Canada, England, and France were necessary Moore spent a bit too much time on 'em and was really shallow about it (e.g. those systems are not perfect). Moore also did not spend enough time on the diversity of the uninsured or partially insured in the United States (50 million bums/leeches in America? noway) -- they're not just disoriented old homeless people.

The rest of it, especially when they try to go to Gitmo was so lame... and I'm just suspect of the whole Cuba sequence, I mean, seriously the Cuban gov't didn't do anything differently? The whole Cuba thing was a real distraction.

[andewhall]

i dont know. when it comes to safety, i think id rather be at a dolce & gabanna show.

worst case scenario: some gay guy bitch slaps you for insulting his wardrobe.

I hate it when that happens.

[Sayword]

The film... the Nixon recording, the personal stories of supposedly insured people and those who couldn't get insurance for retarded reasons, and insurance company insiders' testimonies were most impactful...

Even though focusing on the systems in Canada, England, and France were necessary Moore spent a bit too much time on 'em and was really shallow about it (e.g. those systems are not perfect). Moore also did not spend enough time on the diversity of the uninsured or partially insured in the United States (50 million bums/leeches in America? noway) -- they're not just disoriented old homeless people.

The rest of it, especially when they try to go to Gitmo was so lame... and I'm just suspect of the whole Cuba sequence, I mean, seriously the Cuban gov't didn't do anything differently? The whole Cuba thing was a real distraction.

I agree with you on the nixon thing. I was also abit skeptical on the cuba thing, but if there wasn't any foul play, then I don't know what to think

[poly800rock]

i just watched this. i fucking hate michael moore. it's amazing how he passes off his movies like documentaries when his movies are so one sided. it's such a complcated issue, one i see everyday, but if you watch this movie and believe everything you hear/see, you're just as stupid as the other side.

[Sayword]

Thid movie isn't as slanted as his other movies though.

[wild_whiskey]

Nah, I`m not in the Army. Wish I could get in tho. Wanna fuck up some arabs.

Please, by all means, go beg and plead.

Plus, they have the $350 a month I pay (as well as millions of others pay) towards "medicare"............none of which I've ever benefitted from personally.

Listen: you're not invincible. You can continue on thinking, "why pay for other people when I'm not sick?" but someday, it's gonna happen and you're gonna need insurance. If it doesn't happen to you, just wait until your wife shits out a kid or your parents get sick. And you can bet that the HMO is going to do everything in their fucking power to deny you care because it's not in their best interest to actually expend resources helping your sick ass (or your wife's, or your kid's, or your parents'). The bonus of having government-subsidized health care? While you're paying for other people to not die in a gutter, other people are paying that same tax for you, too, so that multi-million dollar procedure for your mom's cancer is all of the sudden completely off your shoulders, because society is investing in your health monthly.

Even if you think that having privatized health care is simply the best economical choice, I think you're still wrong. I know for instance that in Switzerland, you can get $200/mo. healthcare while in the US (and pay no extra taxes as expats don't pay them), have a $1.2m yearly cap (with no lifetime usage cap) and go to *ANY* hospital and a free flight home to rest if you need it. I understand the idea that if you're getting government-subsidized healthcare the quality will probably drop, but here's an example where you get a choice which hospital to go to, a benefit that even higher-priced US insurance companies do not offer. I am not sure how much of domestic health care is paid for by the government in Switzerland.

Another reason this is becoming more important is because many important employees are getting completely boned out of health care. Health care for teachers in California is constantly getting worse and worse over the years. I'm still on my mother's health care (have about 3 more weeks officially as a student here) and I've seen it go from mediocre coverage to worse to completely shitty.

This isn't about partisan politics, because everyone gets sick and everyone's going to need help at some point in their life. The argument is not about helping the poor people who need help, it's about providing affordable health care to everyone (yes you benefit from it too, even if you haven't had an illness yet, you or someone who is reliant on you one day will) without a ridiculous amount of administrative money sinks which you pay for in privatized HMOs. Half of all bankruptcies are caused by medical costs alone.

[poly800rock]

good rant whiskey. all true.

I really can't say what the best policy is. A family friend is a surgeon in Canada (i'm surprised moore didn't bring the wages in Canada up, or i just don't remember) who has been struggling since Canada socialized healthcare. 2 points the movie seemed to neglect for me were 1) taxes in these countries and 2) differences between the hospitals and who owns them. For-profit hospitals have completely fucked the nursing industry, as well as everyone that works for the hospital. It's quite a staggering statistic, 40 million uninsured americans, but the movie also neglects to point out how many people are illegal, etc. which has a huge bearing on that number considering socialist states normally don't pick up the tab on illegal aliens. While I don't think completely privitized healthcare is the answer, neither is universal coverage. Basic care should be universal, but specialists should be up to the patient.

[wild_whiskey]

Basic care should be universal, but specialists should be up to the patient

I kind of disagree with this, unless we have a different idea about who is a specialist. Are you talking about chiropractics and personal nutritionists, etc.? Because if so, I agree. But if you need a specialist because you have bone cancer or a heart disease that only a doctor with the latest French equipment can help, I don't think you should be screwed out of it because that's where people need help the most: on those high-cost procedures that will put white-collar Joe under a bridge in no time.

Also, I agree that neither universally covered healthcare nor completely privatized healthcare are the answer. There are benefits to both. What's shocking to me is that people realize that privatized health care has cons, yet for some unknown reason, people are extremely reluctant to implement the obvious benefits of government-subsidized health care, which other countries in the world are enjoying the fruits of.