Is all selvedge denim double ring spun?

[Charlie Delta]

Required reading!

[Busted Seam]

THanks for posting this, great thread.

A few of these issues are covered in paul t's cone story:

http://www.trynka.net/Site/Cone.html

It mentions, like Pacioli's post, how wide shuttle denim was around well before 1983 - in fact, Ralf Tharpe mentioned how they were using wide shuttle looms from the 50s.

I have also heard that someone found a large stash of deadstock Cone denim which was thought to be proper selvage - but turned out to be a fake selvage, with the end yarns folded back in. Would be great to know when that dates from.

I wonder if, for hte recent Levi's orange tab, that had to pull the old OE spinning machines out of retirement, like they did the Cone looms?

[stabliu]

Well I'm performing some pretty major thread necromancy, but this thread is damned informative and interesting. I was wondering though does anyone know what gauge/thickness thread is used for the warp of denim?

[Paul T]

I am not sure whether Tony Hige's jeans are fake LVC's or not but I could not find where he wrote the coin pocket selvage was actually exposed. Maybe there's a picture out there that I missed?

In any event I think I can contribute a bit to this conversation. Regarding the existence of OE selvedge denim...it definitely exists in the form of jeans (but there's a twist). Remember when ACG (American Cotton Growers, denim mill) was formed their whole spin was OE spun yarns. But for several reasons they did not purchase the shuttleless looms right away, so for a while they used wide shuttle looms (no typo...we're talking >60"...possibly 70+", as confirmed by a source close to this activity) for some time.

Here's some more testimonial: Quote from Bill Blackledge, an attorney who dealt with ACG's affairs, in the book "Field to Fabric: The Story of American cotton Growers" (Jack Lichtenstein) "When Emerson and Dan went to Europe to this textile machinery show...they saw the prototypes of these new 'shuttleless looms.' So they came back and redesigned that wwhole weaving-room operation and enlarged it so that it would accommodate those kinds of looms. [The manufacturers] wouldn't sell us the looms then because they weren't quite perfected. So we bought the old-style [shuttle] looms, but we put them in positions where we could replace them with shuttleless looms."

This is all taking place in the 70's, with Levi's being a strong supporter of ACG. I have been looking at many orange tabs from this era recently (due to widespread designers interest in this look) and it is quite clear why they usually have no selvage sideseams. Because the rolls were so wide that using the closed selvage edge for the sideseams would make their cutting markers very inefficient. So often the selvage would have been cut off. By the way I am no Levi's expert but I do know a thing or two about denim.

So if you are very interested in identifying OE denim without having to cut a swatch I suggest you go to your local vintage store and check out the washed down orange tabs. You want to look for a salt and pepper-like character in the denim. It is often described as being orange peel. At first blush it is denim described as having no character, but the denim is actually busy with character (it's hiding behind the twill line and looks like orange peel, wrinkles, mini-worns, etc).

OE denim is also described as being fuzzy without being hairy. Our hairy Japanese denim are not OE, fret not (they simply haven't been through finishing processes that make them look more flat).

Sorry I'm blabbing on and on...I can organize my thoughts and provide some easier to follow information if there's interest.

Only just re-read this post. Top Quality Information.