Outlier

[zackl111]

Was just thinking something similar^ Outlier stuff is not perfect. It is, by any fair analysis, awesome, and doesn't really compare to anything else in that price range. There are either much more expensive options (like veilance or stone island) that are comparable, or cheaper options which don't look as nice (north face cargoes or something). The Outlier materials are fantastic, the cuts are great, and the construction has never failed me.

I ride my bike everywhere, don't have a car, and haven't yet destroyed a pair of outliers despite having them for three years. Regular pants would be done for in a matter of months. Plus cotton is awful for active endeavors, and wool is great but wears out way faster (truly a problem for bike riding pants).

I would much rather buy a pair of outliers that are going to be comfortable, durable, stain-free, and look good than anything else available right now.

[TPR950H]

bikesnobnyc review on outlier pants. his clothes/style suck or whatever but here it is:

http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2010/03/bsnyc-product-review-outlier.html

[High Monika]

-

Edited April 22, 2015 by Hang the DJ

[Originatek]

Bike snob is annoying. Any more fitpics of the climbers?

[fungz0r]

Yeah I wanted a couple more pairs of pants and shorts, but now I find myself looking for used or just a different brand altogether. I lived in my 3 way shorts last summer

[concealed]

http://shop.outlier.cc/retail/supermarine-shell.html

this looks sick.

[SuE]

I don't understand why velcro still pops up in techware items. There's truly nothing better?

Edited March 15, 2013 by SuE

[Inkinsurgent]

Depends on what you're using it for. As a cuff closure, velcro combines a broad adjustable range with a low profile and ease of use.

[shoreman]

Looks really cheap, though, especially with wear.

[Inkinsurgent]

Have you seen the various iterations of the veilance field jacket's cuff closure? They had a webbing strap/glide combination at one point, and the current one has a two-position angled snap tab. Innovative stuff.

[hiatus]

my og's pill around the pocket entrances and the inside face of the bottom cuffs where there is some friction with shoes. note - been wearing them for about 2 years, these are the only real issues with my pair.

[delirium]

Kind of wanted the supermarine shell till people pointed out the velcro

If anyone's interested in picking up some stuff from the as-is sale PM me. I do have a good amount that hasn't been picked up yet.

4seasons OG 27 Navy

4seasons OG 28 Navy

Slim dungaree 28 Black w/ black rivets

Keirin 30 -Black w/ black rivets

4seasons OG 31 Black

Keirin 31 -Black w/ black rivets

4seasons OG 33 Black

[SuE]

Have you seen the various iterations of the veilance field jacket's cuff closure? They had a webbing strap/glide combination at one point, and the current one has a two-position angled snap tab. Innovative stuff.

Kind of wanted the supermarine shell till people pointed out the velcro

I got a veilance field jacket on sale last fall and those cuffs were amazing. After wearing it a few times I realized Goretex isn't for me, I started buying Outlier and got infatuated with supermarine cotton... I want this shell too... What other optionsil are there? Acronym uses velcro too. Veilance doesn't have a cotton jacket in their SS collection. Cabourn has some lovely over-designed ventile hoods for x2 the price. Wait til next season?

Edited March 16, 2013 by SuE

[Brainboy]

Veilance doesn't have a cotton jacket in their SS collection.

There is Veilance Polytope jacket. Wouldn't waste my money on this Outiler jacket, it's not just the velcros, the whole thing is off.

I thought they could do better than that. I realize that membranes are not for everyone but that rant about plastic bags is pretty lame.

I like their pants but still feel there is some sort of inherited borderline hipsterism around the brand...

Edited March 16, 2013 by Brainboy

[ninetynine]

Anyone want a pair of black slim dungarees in sz 33?

PM me.

For those who have been messaging, these sold sorry

[readytoignite]

Wouldn't waste my money on this Outiler jacket, it's not just the velcros, the whole thing is off.

I thought they could do better than that. I realize that membranes are not for everyone but that rant about plastic bags is pretty lame.

I like their pants but still feel there is some sort of inherited borderline hipsterism around the brand...

There's always been that about the brand, it was started by two fixie guys in the bk, what do you expect?

I think it's fine to point out that membrane based jackets are kind of received wisdom re: any kind of performance outerwear. The copy was weirdly edited though, esp on the website.

IMO the storm king was a better looking jacket. Price point is kind of intense, wonder how much they spent on seam taping that .1% of their customer base needs?

[Abe1x]

Wow, had no idea there was some much passionate hate for velcro. Would love to here more about why really as its the sort of stuff we think way too much about at Outlier.

As for why we used it. For one in a shell we think it's key to have an analog not digital (in the old school sense of the terms) closure at the wrist. The wrist is one of the main where your arteries get closest to your skin, which makes it a critical spot for temperature regulation. The more air flow that goes over them the quicker you cool down. Since the shell layer is generally the most wind resistant/proof layer you have on it's the one that needs the most wrist adjustment.

Digital closures like snaps and buttons just don't offer the right range of closure options at such a key juncture, they require too much space in between each stop to dial in. Of the analog closures, things like shock cord + a cord stop, or webbing + slider, present a whole cord management problem. No one wants that sort of stuff whipping around off their wrists. Velcro by contrast gives you a wide range of closure, the ability to fine tune it precisely and it lies really flat. When the hook side of the velcro is applied on the strap (as opposed to the sleeve body) it also virtually eliminates any hook to soft clothing interaction which is the reason we rarely use velcro in other places.

All that said when we make garments at Outlier we tend to focus on one or two key issues. With the Shell we focused mainly on movement particularly in the arms, shoulders and hood. Most outdoor brand shells get arm movement by adding tons dirt to the shoulder area and we wanted to see if we could make a shell that that up. We spent some time on the wrist closures of course but we weren't trying to reinvent anything there. We are working on another project that does focus on the wrist, but it's far from ready, no promises on when it's done...

[cameron-]

a big reason i would shy way from velcro is that it tends to age like shit, if you're making a shell out of cotton the implication is that it's something to be worn for more than a couple seasons and everyone knows how velcro feels when you pull something out of your dads closet

i think supreme does a really good job with this issue if you look at this season's ventile 3 tone parka, it uses a hidden elastane strap along with snap closures so it A. fits all wrists, B. keeps the weather out (or not) and C. is not expensive to produce like veilance's cuff systems

Edited March 17, 2013 by cameron-

[Abe1x]

Elastane does make snaps work a bit better, but snaps are still digital and annoying to adjust when not done just right.

Not sure what you mean about velcro aging. The hook side definitely can get dirty with stuff stuck in it, not ideal but it's also not visible except when you adjust it. We have 30+ year old pieces in our archives with velcro that works great. Elastane on the other hand breaks down and fails as it ages, velcro is a far more durable option.

[SuE]

The drawback to an analogue closure like velcro is that it almost offers too large a range. You'll typically fiddle a bit with the strap**, trying to find just the right spot.for the appropriate levels of comfort, whereas with digital closures your choice will be limited to 'loose' or 'tight'. Digital closures just work (or don't work); you won't have to think about them.

Velcro evelates the fiddling requirement for analog closures to a sticking point because it's no fun to use. I own a messenger bag with velcro closure and the sound of the bag opening is slowly driving me insane ― so much so that I loathe to carry it around. I imagine each time I'd have to adjust the wrist on the Supermarine shell that it'll be a tiny prickle of annoyance accumulating towards a feeling of diapprobation about the item.

[quid pro quo]

i think you guys are splitting hairs, abe is right. i imagine for your daily use, a velcro cuff can remain at a fairly fixed point. i have a north face windstopper soft shell that remains tight against my wrists, permits almost zero air inflow yet i dont have to adjust the cuff each time to take it on or off. the arguments agasint velcro (ages poorly?, noisey) seem fairly moot when compared against the benefits it provides.

just my two cents i guess.

[MJR]

does anyone know if the three way long shorts are going to be restocked for summer?

[larssss]

Most outdoor brand shells get arm movement by adding tons dirt to the shoulder area and we wanted to see if we could make a shell that that up.

Sorry, I think there are some typos in this sentence so the meaning gets lost. Be cool if you could clarify.

Anyways, big fan, keep up the good work.

[philosophiliac]

For those who have been messaging, these sold sorry

wooooooooooo

[Abe1x]

does anyone know if the three way long shorts are going to be restocked for summer?

Yes

[Abe1x]

Sorry, I think there are some typos in this sentence so the meaning gets lost. Be cool if you could clarify.

Anyways, big fan, keep up the good work.

Should be "that clean that up"

Also "dirt" is a tailors term for excess fabric

[Abe1x]

@tigerprawn Velcro is a trade name but there are knockoff hook and loop fasteners for sure and they definitely get used in a lot of outdoor gear. I can't recall any genuine Velcro branded hook and loop failing, but yeah the cheap stuff is another story.

All told we still think it makes for the best simple cuff closure on a shell layer. We're investigating other alternatives of course but there is a reason you see it used in say LEAF, Crye and FYI's Patagonia stuff still.

[steph]

There is a reason you see it used in say LEAF, Crye and FYI's Patagonia stuff still.

This.

Having said that, Ventile / Supermarine / Etaproof is comically overpriced and under-performing as an outer layer. There's a constant emperor's-new-clothes mentality about its water-resisting qualities, and first-time buyers don't really know anything about its long-term wear characteristics.

TL;DR:

- It'll keep you dry for about five minutes in heavy rain, not much longer than that in constant rain. And it gets heavy and cold before that.,

- The cotton stiffens and breaks over time, especially if it gets wet a lot. When I say "break", I don't mean "wears" or "frays". I mean the individual woven threads break. It seems to be a problem inherent to the material. I own a pair of 05/06 Acronym P5 (I think), which was basically the first time anyone heard of the material. It's the lighter version (which I believe Outlier have now switched to for its rainshirts. Abe?), which ACR have now replaced with a heavier one. They haven't gotten a massive amount of wear over the years, but stress points have broken, eroded and blown out far faster than denim. Similarly, my first-generation Outlier Feit Supermarines: They developed holes in the material where it simply broke within about 6 months of irregular wear. The cotton on a $20 pair of Vans will last longer than that (which is not to say there's any comparison between the two shoes - there isn't)

The only item of Ventile clothing that's lasted was the original Supermarine rainshirt, which was made with the heavier weave, which has now been replaced with a lighter version. The only reason it's lasted is because it gets wet very rarely, and doesn't have any obvious stress points. It's far and away my favourite shirt, and probably the best thing Outlier have ever done (and I say this as someone who owns four pairs of pants, three-way shorts, shoes, and a merino t-shirt).

Just say no to Ventile, the most overhyped material in techwear today.

[SuE]

Steph please post some pics (the Urban techware thread might be more appropriate)

[Abe1x]

Hah, for obvious reasons I don't think ventile is overhyped, but Steph brings up some important points.

First off the stuff isn't waterproof, we pretty much shouted that in the recent copy. If you need serious 10,000-20,000m+ water column water resistance you need to go with a membrane (gore, event, neoshell, c-change, etc). Why we love it so much is it has a unique combination of high water resistance, high breathablity and great handfeel.

Basically it's stuff you can wear everyday and if it happens to rain it offers a decent level of protection. You just can't do that with a membrane, with a jacket they can be ok when open and inactive but move at all and they become sweatboxes. And forget about making a shirt out of a membrane fabric, it'd be insufferable.

As for its durability, in most respects its an incredibly durable fabric and can last for years or even decades (we have some old British Navy gear from the 50s that has clearly been through hell). However there are a few things to bear in mind. One it's really lightweight, the most common weight is 200gsm or about 6oz, while most denim clocks in at 12-14oz. Secondly because it is so tightly woven and is a plain weave, when it does fail it can fail spectacularly, especially if it is sewn wrong. The first time we made prototype pants was pretty embarrassing... When done right though it can last for a hell of a long time.

As for weights, there a lot. The Swiss had 3 main ones(170,200,240gsm) and just added a 275gsm. They also have a 300gsm that is basically only used by NATO because its narrow goods and even more expensive. The British branded stuff is coming from the same source and identical, but not sure if they have the new weight.

For shirts we've mainly been using the Italian version. They go down to 140gsm which is what we'll be using for rain shirts going forward as its by far the most shirt like. The original shirt was done in 200gsm and we just might have something similar but new coming...