good hip hop

[poopie boy]

mike, i think 78 hasn't thoroughly explained why lupe fiasco is so mediocre.

his strike one, two and three explanation was in some ways just skimming the surface, which you were able to refute easily..

the point was that hes wordplay is very advanced and those are just a few lines showcasing how many meanings he can include in a line or two. I dont even know if he was referring to a coin, maybe JFK was referring to dead presidents (considering its a freestyle over Dead Presidents) = cash/notes? or perhaps it has something to do with drug talk associated with John F.?

I could take that attitude while reading the lyrics you just quoted:

"My feathers and flames are one skin"

what the dude thinks hes a bird or something? is he on fire? wtf, thats stupid

see?

you are completely ignoring or missing the point for the sake of argument. the vast aire verse from scream phoenix (i believe that is the song, been a long time since i listen to this album) is an entire metaphor.. the phoenix mythology is being played off to say he is the greater bird (in song before this, society was broken down into bird species), and ultimately to encompass the frame of thought of hip hop, the god mc.

this seperates the good mc's from the mediocre ones. where vast aire is able to make a whole song or verseinto a metaphor of upliftment and unique ideas, lupe fiasco is making clever wordplayish punchlines about how cool he is. he is making songs and writing raps that we have heard countless times before. rhyme patterns, metaphor usage, and syllable placement we've already heard from other rappers in the mid 90's.

that would pretty much be the radio / single track off of the album, not surprised if it has some dumbed down lines. though I think those still beat every other radio track. I'm sure you can badmouth any artist by picking the most basic lines from a song. bottom line is, that as an mainstream artist, Lupe plays a completely different game then most rappers. his lyricism makes him anything but mediocre.

personally I would say that the quotes you posted dont say anything to me, they're very poetic but make very little sense. while in Lupes case I am constantly at awe when I find a new meaning behind something.

but as you said, thats a personal preference, thats why I'm not calling stuff you listen to mediocre for the sole reason that it doesn't interest me.

personally, if those quotes 78 posted don't say anything to you, specifically the vast aire verse.. then it can mean a lot of things. it can mean that you don't appreciate uplifting full-length metaphors, and that you can only digest small metaphors strung together in 3 or 4 bars, it can mean you don't know anything about the phoenix mythology, or that you have never been in a situation or surroundings where you were underappreciated. but honestly, i don't think either of those is the actual case and i'm just going to assume you've never heard the song or the one that preceeds it.

lupe's lines don't awe me in the least bit because i have heard all of them before.. he is simply emulating his predecesors.. it is all regurgitated thoughts of a tribe called quest, consequence, common, wordsworth, kanye west, etc. if i wanted to hear that, i'd go listen to them.. the originators of that.. the ones who did it well.

to quote aceyalone "i rather stimulate your mind than emulate your purpose."

aside from his lack of original topics, and uninspiring wordplay. i find lupe fiasco to not have very good mic presence whatsoever or creativity in his flow.

he is not a bad mc.. he is just mediocre. his rhymes you quote are nothing i haven't read on any message board of internet mc's who also have poor mic presence and delivery. s'all.

[78]

mike, i think 78 hasn't thoroughly explained why lupe fiasco is so mediocre.

Because I was lazy. Simple as that. I thought the 3 strikes would have been enough to silence to crowd. To breakdown the 'Scream Phoenix' rhymes would take a while. To explain each line, then how it affects the preceding line, and then the verse and then the whole song and then in context of the whole damned LP... shit that's a thesis right there!

So thank you Poopster for opening the door a little wider.

[mike lowrey]

And that is why he's mediocre. Because he comes out with MEDIOCRE lines for the MASSES. What is that? Does he think we're dumb? Where's the integrity Lupe?

ever think some artist want to sell albums in addition to doing their thing? yes, a majority of mainstream music listeneres are dumb when it comes down to apreciating lyrical skills. and yes, we are talking about mainstream hiphop, cause that is the major part of lupes audience.

you are completely ignoring or missing the point for the sake of argument. the vast aire verse from scream phoenix (i believe that is the song, been a long time since i listen to this album) is an entire metaphor.. the phoenix mythology is being played off to say he is the greater bird (in song before this, society was broken down into bird species), and ultimately to encompass the frame of thought of hip hop, the god mc.

I'm not missing the point at all. the point of this whole discussion is or was that can Lupe Fiasco be called a mediocre hiphop artist. I think he can't be called mediocre because his lyrical skills are not only above average, but above of most other mainstream hiphop artists.

personally, if those quotes 78 posted don't say anything to you, specifically the vast aire verse.. then it can mean a lot of things. it can mean that you don't appreciate uplifting full-length metaphors, and that you can only digest small metaphors strung together in 3 or 4 bars, it can mean you don't know anything about the phoenix mythology, or that you have never been in a situation or surroundings where you were underappreciated. but honestly, i don't think either of those is the actual case and i'm just going to assume you've never heard the song or the one that preceeds it.

it means that I'm not a huge fan of the song (which I've heard like all of cold vein) and that I dont care too much for rappers talking about mythology. that doesn't tell anything about what I can or cannot digest, it tells that I prefer witty wordplay over what I think is over-dramatic poetry. lyrically I obviously can't say theres anything wrong with Vast.

[78]

They lied - when they said there was no air/Aire in space

MC shit right here, master of ceremonies

All that other garbage

("one dimensional emcees can't handle that")

Yo, music is my love, press play on stereoid

Life is a breath of fresh air, mahogon-oid

Negroids act like Sigmund Freud

Dreaming of a perfect i-roid, screaming cerebrum steroid

Faking-jack decoys got beef with Ox

You can get caught in my Real Earth chatterbox

That's virtual (virtual), if you drunk a V8

You couldn't be parallel, because hell is vertical

Aha, fooled ya, thought it was beneath you

Got propelled in the sky, now soul is see-through

But it doesn't matter cause there's no molecules

Then genius becomes burden to ridicule

Realize much at stake

And excuse me for lack of better words, that's my bond that never breaks

Pierce hearts with stakes, bloodsuckers cast no reflection

In my prism detention, they hate

On Prison's intentions, get diesel, read a book

Find god in a cell block, that's your fate

I'm that voice in the back of LL's head saying

"You gonna let a weed plant do that?" yeah, I like to instigate

This aint a space race so why you rushin'

To be the first to catch a concussion, from El-P's percussion

Watch me throw a sentence in the air, say word up

That's just a phrase for my action, like a bum with a cup

And Rome wasn't built in a day but it fell in one

And you don't got half of a step but you walk like one

I got calluses on my hand 'cause I held the sun uneven

I, got the weight of the world on my chest and still breathin'

Can-Ox is like 007 and man from U.N.C.L.E.

You off the top broke but I rip the turn-buckle

You a halloween thug, I'll expose ya face

And use you as an example that fell from Grace

They lied when they said there was no air/Aire in space

I'll boil an emcee to the teeth with no trace

I'm like Moses with a staff that parts the Red Sea

But it's a new day, so I use the mic to depart emcees

This Earth is as real as a Chinese fortune cookie

In English with lottery numbers; I'm finished

Uh, with lottery numbers, I'm finished

Yo, yo

And one dimensional emcees (can't handle that)

And one dimensional emcees (be biting backs)

And one dimensional emcees (be getting smacked)

Now one dimensional emcees (know how to act)

I said one dimensional emcees (can't handle that)

And one dimensional emcees (be biting backs)

And one dimensional emcees (be getting smacked)

Now one dimensional emcees (know how to act)

I said one dimensional emcees (be biting backs)

Wha, what, can't handle that

I said one dimensional emcees (can't handle that)

And one dimensional emcees (be biting backs)

And one dimensional emcees (Def Jux; be getting smacked)

Now one dimensional emcees (know how to act)

It's like that, Real Earth, take me out there

Real turf, take me out there

2001, space odyssey, what, Cold Vein, uh

So good it hurts.

And you know where you can replace Lupe in the chorus...

oh snap.

he ILLED it.

much love

[78]

PBWOLF V-day mix is up at stonesthrow.

very very very sexy and should make you all warm in side... even you mike!

hahahah

[Darkadious]

yeah, the little brother thing is true *to post above many*

[mike lowrey]

gotta love the attitude

[NESK]

vast aint even better than lupe. dude sounds like a winded whinnie the pooh (thats eso's line). cold vein was okay, but mostly cause el p is a scientist. one thing i will give to lupe though is he might have had my favorite album art of all time in his cd insert. i almost bought the album for that. but when my friend played the record for me, i knew it wasnt something id want to own.

[cHr]

Does anyone have information when Common's new album is going to come out. I'll be picking up tickets for his concert in Amsterdam the 26th of march. He really is one of the artists I really look forward seeing live. I guess there are people here who saw him on here, everyone positive about him or bad experiences as well?

[78]

vast aint even better than lupe. dude sounds like a winded whinnie the pooh (thats eso's line)..

Oh no you didn't just bring the BEEF RAP into this thread did you?!?! Eso vs. Vast... I can't even believe that became 'something'

Dirty Magazine mixtape from, what 4 years ago, had a track that shut Eso DOWN.

What happened to that TOY?!

[mike lowrey]

Does anyone have information when Common's new album is going to come out. I'll be picking up tickets for his concert in Amsterdam the 26th of march. He really is one of the artists I really look forward seeing live. I guess there are people here who saw him on here, everyone positive about him or bad experiences as well?

I saw Common live in London a couple of years ago, good performance and more importantly an amazing vibe at the place. should be a great gig

album is said to be released around June, should have production by will.i.am, kanye and possibly dilla.

A Dream video:

[fade to black2]

lupe is overrated. he's a nice lyricist but i found his album having little replay value.

damn there really hasn't been much good hip hop as of late. 50 Cent's 'Funeral Music' is the only highlight i can think of from 2007 so far, dude BODIED cameron. I hope he finishes dipset, i can't stand those dudes. Also glad to see vintage 50 is back.

edit: Finding Forever got pushed back til June? I thought it was coming out in March...i like that first single 'Southside' w/ K. West.

[ktothe]

Oh no you didn't just bring the BEEF RAP into this thread did you?!?! Eso vs. Vast... I can't even believe that became 'something'

Dirty Magazine mixtape from, what 4 years ago, had a track that shut Eso DOWN.

What happened to that TOY?!

I think he actually completed his transformation into Jay-Z and the result was Kingdom Come.

No but really, his flow got sorta crazy. Listen to the Torture Papers. Too bad his voice is annoying as fuck.

[EMBARK]

Good hiphop in 07:

Sean Price - Jesus Price Superstar.

Little Brother/Mick Boogie Mixtape

That is it so far.

[NESK]

im digging plastic little, i think that was 2007 release.

def not for everyone but its funny. and you can dance to it or slap your mom to it.

every year people say theres nothing good. hip hoppers are such a fickle crowd. even i sometimes feel like shits stale, but i cant keep my ass out of record stores so there must be alot of good shit still pumping. did nayone post that ghostface mixtape here? fish and chips. i liekd it alot more than more fish. you cant fuck wtih ghost over the crooklyn dodgers beat.

[Darkadious]

Sean Price - Cardiac

http://www.supload.com/listen?s=SIQpfUP2j3P

Sean Price - Da God

http://www.supload.com/listen?s=S087pwKIT3D

[poopie boy]

vast aint even better than lupe. dude sounds like a winded whinnie the pooh (thats eso's line). cold vein was okay, but mostly cause el p is a scientist. one thing i will give to lupe though is he might have had my favorite album art of all time in his cd insert. i almost bought the album for that. but when my friend played the record for me, i knew it wasnt something id want to own.

vast aire sucks now.. but on the cold vein album he was great.

lupe fiasco has just been consistently mediocre since he came out..

being better than the rest of the mainstream does not make you good, or even worth listening to, for that matter.

also, nesk, why would you ever, ever mention esoteric in a thread about good hip hop? shame on you.

[evisu 2000]

being better than the rest of the mainstream does not make you good, or even worth listening to, for that matter.

qftqftqft.

[dizzhizz]

He is NOT creating stories like Can Ox "BBoy Alpha" or Buck 65/Stinkin Rich/Captain Climax "Language Arts" or "Vertex or Slug "Nothing But Sunshine" or Latyrx "Lady Don't Tek No" and many more. Strike One

Wow. It's been a while since I heard references from the Anticon/Solesides/Latyrx independent/underground side of hip hop. I love that shit.

Good looking out 78.

[NESK]

vast aire sucks now.. but on the cold vein album he was great.

lupe fiasco has just been consistently mediocre since he came out..

being better than the rest of the mainstream does not make you good, or even worth listening to, for that matter.

also, nesk, why would you ever, ever mention esoteric in a thread about good hip hop? shame on you.

i didnt mean to associate eso with good hip hop. he isnt. but his diss on vast aire was spot on.

[PG2G]

Good hiphop in 07:

Sean Price - Jesus Price Superstar.

Little Brother/Mick Boogie Mixtape

That is it so far.

Don't forget,

Talib Kweli/Madlib - Liberation

[RAISED BY WOLVES]

damn there really hasn't been much good hip hop as of late. 50 Cent's 'Funeral Music' is the only highlight i can think of from 2007 so far, dude BODIED cameron. I hope he finishes dipset, i can't stand those dudes. Also glad to see vintage 50 is back.

Yeah, I watched the video for that shit. It made me smile Circa 2003 era.

[homi29]

vast aire sucks now.. but on the cold vein album he was great.

lupe fiasco has just been consistently mediocre since he came out..

being better than the rest of the mainstream does not make you good, or even worth listening to, for that matter.

also, nesk, why would you ever, ever mention esoteric in a thread about good hip hop? shame on you.

i think you guys need to check your definition of medicore

there is no seperate bar for underground and mainstream hip-hop... i have more respect for artists who are able to somewhat bridge the gap between the tw worlds, and thats what i appreciate bout lupe. he's able to bring lyracsim and scratch the surface on issues that mainstream artists won't touch..

i feel as if ur gonna call lupe mediocre, what is an artist like Jeezy or Young Joc to you??

and back on track for a second, i think the new rza afro soundtrack album is an interesting listen

[Darkadious]

the roots are pretty mainstream to me, they do more than scratch the surface too.

[NESK]

i think you guys need to check your definition of medicore

there is no seperate bar for underground and mainstream hip-hop... i have more respect for artists who are able to somewhat bridge the gap between the tw worlds, and thats what i appreciate bout lupe. he's able to bring lyracsim and scratch the surface on issues that mainstream artists won't touch..

i feel as if ur gonna call lupe mediocre, what is an artist like Jeezy or Young Joc to you??

and back on track for a second, i think the new rza afro soundtrack album is an interesting listen

i think you need to change your position on this cause its weak. just cause an artist doesnt represent what you feel is the worst part of the genre (jeezy joc), doesnt automatically make him deserve credit.

theres a million rappers who are conscious and poltical, and theres alot of rappers in the mainstream who are excellent lyricists even if their subject matter isnt progressive. lupes lyrics attempt to be deep, and technical, but to me they fail. his whole album reeks of effort. i can hear him trying to do something and falling short everytime. and his politics are bullshit. he doesnt know what hes trying to say, he just knows he wants to say something new. if he sorts his style out by the next album i might be converted. but just cause he going against the grain doesnt get him any daps form me. especially when hes not bringing anything new to the table.

[sean_]

plus, jeezy put out one of the top rap albums of 05 (or whenever thug motivation came out)

wow i just heard funeral music for the first time, 50 is.. rapping like old 50 again

from now on jimmys the boss of dipset, lol

[poopie boy]

i think you need to change your position on this cause its weak. just cause an artist doesnt represent what you feel is the worst part of the genre (jeezy joc), doesnt automatically make him deserve credit.

theres a million rappers who are conscious and poltical, and theres alot of rappers in the mainstream who are excellent lyricists even if their subject matter isnt progressive. lupes lyrics attempt to be deep, and technical, but to me they fail. his whole album reeks of effort. i can hear him trying to do something and falling short everytime. and his politics are bullshit. he doesnt know what hes trying to say, he just knows he wants to say something new. if he sorts his style out by the next album i might be converted. but just cause he going against the grain doesnt get him any daps form me. especially when hes not bringing anything new to the table.

exactly my point. thank you nesk.

jeezy is certified g shit, as is jim jones and most of dipset.

[NESK]

jeezy doesnt do it for me either. i can see why he appeals to alot of people, but its so arbitrary to come out with songs about cocaine right now. everything hes said has been said a million times before. and the clipse at least mix in some creativity and add depth to the subject, or ghost can make it sound really vintage and exciting, i guess id just rather listen to these guys do it than jeezy. but the snowman shirt was awesome. so he gets props for that.

[NESK]

ps - young joc gets the pass cause he got his own dance. catch me doin that every night i go out.

its goin down.

[fade to black2]

At the end of the day, Jeezy is not a good rapper, but he made a decent album with replay value in TM: 102...which is a lot more than I can say for most of hip hop right now, mainstream or otherwise.