To Vote, or Not to Vote

[po_boy_fuuma_hatesbargerz]

Tron Paul 2012

[tmadd]

hahahhhhahhahah]

I would never vote for Obama. I would never vote for Mccain.

They both work within a really messed up system where the campaigns are funded by corporations, and only reps and dems are allowed in the debates.

That is reason enough not to vote for them.

You mis-interpreted what I meant, but the way you clarify your stance makes it something I disagree with, but don't disregard as completely retarded. You left out the necessary information to understand what you actually meant when you said "i don't care if Obama is the right direction, I would still never vote for him". I didn't mean it was bad grammar, I meant that saying X is right, but you will still never choose X is a bit confusing.

Also, to indict Obama and McCain of being part of the same "fucked up system" is a simplification that ignores so many differences between them that it really is pretty ridiculous. I don't think you should necessarily like either one of them, but to argue they are essentially the same betrays either ignorance or stupidity. It's not much difference than saying they are the same because they are men and men are a group of people that is largely responsible for the oppression of women.

[broneck]

Voting is nothing more than the illusion that you have a choice. You get to choose between the puppet on the left and the puppet on the right. Have fun. Voters have no real influence in this country, and as far as I'm concerned you're all buying into the lie that they do. If it makes you feel better to vote, go ahead. I'm staying the fuck home.

note - this is definitely meant to be an attack, on a stupid, stupid idiot.

did you ever stop to consider the fact that the reasons things are they way they are is due to people that were voted in before you had a choice? that if more people had exercised their right to vote, you might be living in a very different nation than the one you currently are?

resigning to "that's the way things are" and being bummed is just another vote for a system that is never going to change, because they're fine with the way things are. hang on to some hope that in the future, your vote will have counted, even if you don't see it in your lifetime. you sound like a petulant, ignorant shithead.

[broneck]

I would never vote for Obama. I would never vote for Mccain.

They both work within a really messed up system where the campaigns are funded by corporations, and only reps and dems are allowed in the debates.

That is reason enough not to vote for them.

note - this isn't meant to be an attack, just a civilized counterpoint.

correct me if i'm wrong, but while McCain's campaign has been financed by corporations and subsidized by taxpayers, I think part of what made Obama's campaign so historic was that he ran the most financially successful campaign in US history, and did it on the donations of individuals who believed in him.

And futhermore, Obama knows that in order for real change to happen, you have to work within the system, however corrupt. I'm sure there will be people who will criticize him for running a $700mn campaign (money that could've gone elsewhere, i.e. humanitarian purposes or some bullshit like that), but what people don't realize is that the money has proven itself to be necessary and righteous, as it has allowed a message to be heard elsewhere, and may help to usher in changes in the system that a lot of educated individuals are looking for - think breaking eggs to make omelettes.

I don't think he's going to change the world overnight, but I think he represents some of the most positive politics I've seen since I started paying attention.

[todesengel]

heh, people? more like sheeple

[tmadd]

note - this isn't meant to be an attack, just a civilized counterpoint.

correct me if i'm wrong, but while McCain's campaign has been financed by corporations and subsidized by taxpayers, I think part of what made Obama's campaign so historic was that he ran the most financially successful campaign in US history, and did it on the donations of individuals who believed in him.

And futhermore, Obama knows that in order for real change to happen, you have to work within the system, however corrupt. I'm sure there will be people who will criticize him for running a $700mn campaign (money that could've gone elsewhere, i.e. humanitarian purposes or some bullshit like that), but what people don't realize is that the money has proven itself to be necessary and righteous, as it has allowed a message to be heard elsewhere, and may help to usher in changes in the system that a lot of educated individuals are looking for - think breaking eggs to make omelettes.

I don't think he's going to change the world overnight, but I think he represents some of the most positive politics I've seen since I started paying attention.

Before anyone continues to construct situations in which Obama=McCain, read the above again, and then proceed at your own risk.

[surfed57]

note - this is definitely meant to be an attack, on a stupid, stupid idiot.

did you ever stop to consider the fact that the reasons things are they way they are is due to people that were voted in before you had a choice? that if more people had exercised their right to vote, you might be living in a very different nation than the one you currently are?

resigning to "that's the way things are" and being bummed is just another vote for a system that is never going to change, because they're fine with the way things are. hang on to some hope that in the future, your vote will have counted, even if you don't see it in your lifetime. you sound like a petulant, ignorant shithead.

I hate to put my two cents in again because by this point, I know you'll be tempted not to listen. You're twisting my words which, when you're trying to have a decent discussion is really obnoxious.

The reason that things are the way they are isn't because of "who voted for who." I think an honest examination lends itself better to the view that it is because people of influence in this country have tilted the system towards their side.

Now here's the important part, so listen carefully. I'm not resigning to "the way things are." It's just that the electoral system is an integral part of "the way things are," and thus, I refuse to participate in it. If, as you claim, you do refuse to resign to the way things are, I think it would be in much more honest and true adherence to that claim to seek change outside the electoral system.

Choosing not to vote does not amount to apathy. The way I see it, choosing to vote is bowing down to part of the system that (I think honestly) you claim to rebuke.

[Corbin Law]

^which makes you nothing more than dead weight.

[broneck]

I'm not twisting your words. you talk about the people who were in a position of influence who tilted the system towards their side. These are the people who ran the country in the past and made policies that allowed for the system to turn out the way it did.

These people were voted in.

Even if you disagree with the system, the only way to actually change it is to act within it, or rebel violently against it. No one gives a fuck about your blog, no one gives a fuck about your apathy. Vote, or shut the fuck up.

[NESK]

Choosing not to vote does not amount to apathy. The way I see it, choosing to vote is bowing down to part of the system that (I think honestly) you claim to rebuke.

c'mon. this is horseshit, and im sorry for being crude because id like to maintain a tone that might allow you to see where youre wrong, but your narrowmindedness is frustrating.

not voting means you dont have the right to complain about all this bullshit your spewing. you forfeiting your given voice to be heard. you choose silence, thus you should not expect anyone to listen to you when you want to be a crybaby after the fact.

[surfed57]

I'm not twisting your words. you talk about the people who were in a position of influence who tilted the system towards their side. These are the people who ran the country in the past and made policies that allowed for the system to turn out the way it did.

These people were voted in.

Even if you disagree with the system, the only way to actually change it is to act within it, or rebel violently against it. No one gives a fuck about your blog, no one gives a fuck about your apathy. Vote, or shut the fuck up.

What I'm trying to say is these people were not voted into office. There was a time period maybe in the 1910s and 20s when the electoral system had a shot at representing peoples' interests. Maybe people like Eugene Debs or William Jennings Bryan could have, upon being voted into office, had a chance at changing things. Those days are long over. Your vote is not a voice. You have long been silenced. You're probably correct that the only way to change the system is to act outside of it, which is a right I reserve for myself (though that doesn't necessarily constitute violence).

Oh, and for the record I don't a) have a blog or read Noam Chomsky. Like Christopher Hitchens said, I'm happy when you resort to the Ad Hominem because it's usually a sign of victory.

In a serious discussion about politics and voting, it's disappointing to see so much naivete, lack of knowledge in the fundamental texts on the matter, or laziness (I suspect it's the latter.) You can keep attacking me forever, I've stated my views, so go ahead, take the last word on this one, it seems like you'll probably want it.

[tmadd]

Like Christopher Hitchens said, I'm happy when you resort to the Ad Hominem because it's usually a sign of victory.

In a serious discussion about politics and voting, it's disappointing to see so much naivete, lack of knowledge in the fundamental texts on the matter, or laziness (I suspect it's the latter.) You can keep attacking me forever, I've stated my views, so go ahead, take the last word on this one, it seems like you'll probably want it.

Talk about irony, or just plain lack of self awareness. Just because something is implied and in a condescending tone doesn't make it not Ad Hominem. You have ignored a fair amount of invitations to explain fundamental flaws in the logic you have exercised in this conversation, so I think the jury is still out on who, if anyone, is really exhibiting naivete and lack of knowledge on fundamental texts...the funny thing about this internet machine is that you never know who it is that you are talking down to.

That all being said, if you would care to recommend what you consider to be the fundamental texts on the matter, I would love to give those I am not already familiar with a go.

[po_boy_fuuma_hatesbargerz]

^^^ also all of you are arguing on the internet about politics with people you'll never see in real life

heh, people? more like sheeple

liberals? you mean lieberals

[tmadd]

Thanks for pointing that out, guy on the internet who I will never see in real life. ;-)

As much as it may seem like a pointless exercise, the dialogue over the last few pages has been engaging and caused me to reflect seriously upon why I do and think the things I do.

[ProfMonnitoff]

The only legitimate time to not vote because you dislike the system is when you're actively working on improving the system yourself. Otherwise you need to stop thinking you're special.

[Boston.]

Even if your vote for your presidential candidate might not garner any specific result what about your state propositions and local measures on the ballot? If those are voted for by county or district, you're one of a much smaller knit of people and your vote matters because those are elected on majority or two-thirds percentages - no electoral college to speak of there.

[cjbreed]

the latest data indicates that the 18-29 year old demographic has not been showing up to vote (early voting). this group prefers obama 2 to 1. what the fuck

listen, if you guys don't vote, and we end up with a mccain/palin presidency, i swear i will make it my life's mission to track down all you non-voting motherfuckers and slit your damn throats

this is the most important and historic election of our generation. the stakes are very high. your vote is your only voice in this government. we need obama to win and we need him to win buy a huge margin so that he has as much political capital as possible

you'd have to be fuckin' ignorant and retarded not to want your voice heard in times like these. or at the very least you should want to contribute to something important. for fuck's sake. get off your ass.

please.

paid for by obama/biden 08 and the democratic national committee

i'm barack obama and i approved this message

[Brockg777]

If you don't believe in either major candidate or a third party candidate then show your dissent by making a vote of no confidence, as is your right. Then protest the electoral college, as is your right. Then your giving them the finger. Sitting back and not voting is saying that you don't care, that they can make your decisions for you.

[broneck]

listen to CJbreed. feel free to disagree, just don't do it right now.

[tmadd]

"To put them in perspective, I think of being on an airplane. The flight attendant comes down the aisle with her food cart and, eventually, parks it beside my seat. "Can I interest you in the chicken?" she asks. "Or would you prefer the platter of shit with broken glass in it?"

To be undecided in this election is to pause for a moment and then ask how the chicken is cooked."

[habia]

no that's David Sedaris, not Gibson.

[tmadd]

I am a jackass...Gibson posted that on his blog, I breezed through the first sentence where he attributes it to Sedaris. That said, I should have recognized it as Sedaris without reading the citation.

[jonathanschley]

the latest data indicates that the 18-29 year old demographic has not been showing up to vote (early voting). this group prefers obama 2 to 1. what the fuck

listen, if you guys don't vote, and we end up with a mccain/palin presidency, i swear i will make it my life's mission to track down all you non-voting motherfuckers and slit your damn throats

this is the most important and historic election of our generation. the stakes are very high. your vote is your only voice in this government. we need obama to win and we need him to win buy a huge margin so that he has as much political capitol as possible

you'd have to be fuckin' ignorant and retarded not to want your voice heard in times like these. or at the very least you should want to contribute to something important. for fuck's sake. get off your ass.

please.

paid for by obama/biden 08 and the democratic national committee

i'm barack obama and i approved this message

i've said it all along. black people and young people don't vote. it doesn't matter. they don't. it's not racism, it's not ageism, it's statistical fact.

[tmadd]

i've said it all along. black people and young people don't vote. it doesn't matter. they don't. it's not racism, it's not ageism, it's statistical fact.

When determining these statistical "facts", how many presidential elections featuring a young (relatively speaking), black man as a major party candidate were taken into consideration. I guess with all your statistical ammo, you stand to make a lot of money off these jokers: www.intrade.com

[jonathanschley]

When determining these statistical "facts", how many presidential elections featuring a young (relatively speaking), black man as a major party candidate were taken into consideration. I guess with all your statistical ammo, you stand to make a lot of money off these jokers: www.intrade.com

i'm not saying mccain will win, far from it, i'm just saying WHEN obama wins, it will have a lot less to do with the youth/black vote than many people would like to credit it with.

[dphi]

i've said it all along. black people and young people don't vote. it doesn't matter. they don't. it's not racism, it's not ageism, it's statistical fact.

Assuming you're serious, you must not have been paying attention to the demographics of early voters, especially in states like Georgia and Virginia.

[mgoeclipse]

^ I agree. That's a very ignorant thing to say...

Young, .5 black, voted.

[lil brown brother]

just vote and be counted

[cjbreed]

thank you 18-29 demographic. looks like you showed up after all

[jonathanschley]

thank you 18-29 demographic. looks like you showed up after all

haha. it was 1% more than in 2004. don't thank that demographic. thank black voters who actually got out and voted, 95% of black men and 96% of black women voted for obama.