cyberpunk.

[Charlie Delta]

I would love to hear more about this from everybody, but how about keeping things a bit clear, I know I'm partly to blame by throwing Steampunk etc in the mix, but since there are, as Jeep mentioned so many levels to all of these genre's, it's easy to get stuff mixed up, especially if you're not very deep into it....

I mean Iso threw almost every possible subgenre into her one post... (No hate btw)

You guys heard of "FreakAngels"?

It's free, weekly comic that just started and it appears to be very Cyber+Steampunk influenced.

Could be interesting...

[napoleon]

There is a lot of just straight out scifi in this thread. Just noticed I posted one myself. Cyberpunk should be fairly near future, in a society that isn't too far from current, with tech that is potentially in reach. You should be able to believe how the world could get where it is in the story from where it is today and feel in it today's society but skewed by global power shifts and new tech. What I like most are the little details, the small personal stories instead of world saving escapist stuff; and usually gritty characters and gritty environments.

[cyberPUNK]

i completely agree with napoleon's description of cyberpunk. that seems to be the appeal to me. the fact that's is grounded in some sort of not-too-distant reality.

i could see what alf was trying to say, but couldn't kanye's music video be considered cyberpunk as well, i know i did upon first seeing it. after all he did lift the theme straight from akira. many times those sort of themed artists appear in cyberpunk works. to me that music video does more to disprove your point than prove it. maybe you're simply taking the "punk" aspect of cyberpunk a bit too literal, no reason "cyber hip hop" isn't cyberpunk. either way, i'm enjoying this discussion!

[Darkeside]

There is a lot of just straight out scifi in this thread.

While I agree with the bulk of what you are saying, this^^^ is a tricky point, as 99% of Cyberpunk would qualify as sci-fi, but not all Sci-fi is cyberpunk.

Which titles from this thread would you say are just plain sci-fi?

Also agree with cyberPUNK, enjoying this discussion.

[wiretapscars]

rejoice?

...torque/britney's toxic music video director + crap anakin skywalker...they just shouln't do it--especially if chris cunningham originally wanted to direct. it's going to suck.

I hope it doesn't suck. I'm just really excited that the movie is gettin made, but yeah i'm worried about the director too....the man actually made a movie called "absolute garbage" last year

To contribute to the thread, here's a pretty cool cyberpunk music video:

Fear Factory "Resurrection"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PBaNf6Jk5rM

[heBAY]

...Any movie/comic/anime that is mostly at night with fire shooting out of smokestacks.

Probably my favorite genre of "(science) fiction"...loved the commentary set in ultra-urban societal downfall...I'm also a bit biased, being from NYC.

Mucho anime (a lot of the late-80's, early 90's stuff was VERY cyberpunk, not Sci Fi...mostly ported by ADVision, Manga Ent., and US Manga Corps. and then later shown on, ironically, Sci Fi Channel's Saturday Morning Anime...right before MST3K):

-Battle Angel Alita/Gunnm

-Bubblegum Crisis (and Crash...but Crash was trash)

-Dominion Tank Police

-Armitage III

-Silent Mobius

Not anime but...AEON FLUX fit right into the cyberpunk genre IMO.

What about old cyberpunk games...the PC had a good amount of these...not to mention a pretty rad Blade Runner port. Used to be an old PC head when it was ruled by flight sims and Sierra/Lucasarts styled RPG games.

PC classics include:

-Beneath A Steel Sky (separated Dystopian society, super-polluted world with the megacorporation at the helm)

-Bloodnet (vampire gangs, NYC's a warzone, lasers, trenchcoats, all that good cyberpunk shit...probably one of my favorites)

-Syndicate and Syndicate Wars (corporation gang violence amidst art deco influenced city blocks)

-Mean Streets/Martian Memorandum/Under A Killing Moon/Pandora Directive (very Blade RUnner inspired...all of that good post-apocalyptic, corpo, future thriller stuff)

-Quarantine 1 & 2 (hover taxi driver in a post-apocalyptic city environ...Omnicorp runs the whole shit...probably one of the first of the drive-around-a-whole-city games...way before Carmageddon or GTA)

-System Shock

-Hell: A Cyberpunk Thriller (yeah)

-Rise Of The Dragon

-Snatcher/Policenauts (Blade Runner to the fullest...detective in a trenchcoat and hover car hunts cybernetic killing machine(s)...Konami at it's finest)

-Shadowrun for the Super Nintendo (a lot of the above)

Speaking of games...GURPS/RIFTS was for the cool people who said D&D was for nerds...cyberpunk RPG book series.

Ronin by Frank Miller is a glorious chunk of cyberpunk comic'ness.

[jeepster]

i forgot to mention game-wise:

Half-Life (all of them)

Deus Ex (all of them)

Blade Runner (pretty pathetic game, but the story is just as good as the one in the movie)

Neuromancer - i'm willing to see the movie, despite hayden christensen being possibly the worst actor... ever.

Shadow Run

System Shock (all of them)

and of course The Matrix (in both cinema and games)

oh yeah and...

http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/

[Darkeside]

Good list of stuff HeBay!

Neuromancer - i'm willing to see the movie, despite hayden christensen being possibly the worst actor... ever.

really? no, please god no.

The boy makes Mark Hamill look like Daniel Day Lewis!!!

[sybaritical]

I'm a big fan but it's tricky genre to pin down I think. One group who summise it for me with their successful isolation of the essential elements and the subsequent realisation of architectural projects are Lot-Ek.

Their work is imaginative, seemlessly constructed, and genuinely exciting to behold.

There's more but I'm on the run as well so I'll be back later.

[Double D]

If we're talking cyberpunk games, then I can't believe noone's mentioned the Fallout series.

Fallout 3 might just be the game that finally makes me buy a 360.

[cyberPUNK]

i just realized nobody mentioned "soylent green"

damn i haven't seen that movie in years. if that's not cyberpunk than nothing is, haha.

my personal favorite though would have to be "ghost in the shell," i know jeepster said it lacked realism because it's anime, but i feel the themes in play are more realistic than most others. the way in which the series seems to probe the development of the internet and explores the idea of the internet being a collective consciousness simply blows me aways. i could type pages on the "ghost in the shell" franchise but quite frankly it's the one that impresses me the most. maybe it's all about personal preference.

[heBAY]

i just realized nobody mentioned "soilent green"

damn i haven't seen that movie in years. if that's not cyberpunk than nothing is, haha.

my personal favorite though would have to be "ghost in the shell," i know jeepster said it lacked realism because it's anime, but i feel the themes in play are more realistic than most others. the way in which the series seems to probe the development of the internet and toy with the philosophy of the internet being a collective consciousness simply blows me aways. i could type pages on the "ghost in the shell" franchise but quite frankly it's the one that impresses me the most. maybe it's all about personal preference.

Good point. Great "classic" movie.

And yes...GITS 1 & 2 are great for this genre...fuck if it's anime...Akira is anime...but stands as a prime example of the genre (not to mention way more watchable than some filth like Demolition Man or Johnny Mnemonic).

[viv1984viv]

Soylent Green is a fantastic film, ive been pretty into CP for a while now.

GITS, Akira, Blade Runner, La Jetee, lots of cronenberg - videodrome being best....

Serial Experiments Lain

THX 1138

Tron

Metropolis

Pi

Anything by K DIck or Gibson,,,,

Sky Blue

Atwood novels

Biopunk....... a bravenew world..... all these sorts of things of orwellian dystopias...

http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/cyberpunk-movies-by-decade/

is a good place for movies but there are loads that are not there

Alphaville!

Cyberpunk is tricky because there are many different facets of it, "a dystopic, world where technology runs riot and big conspiratorial powers control the masses' ... is often to broad a description - sometimes people say it has to contain an anti-hero but many 'classic cp' films dont have a straight anti-hero...

I think its easy to fall into the trap of seeing any future dystopia as a cyberpunk situation... or a subgenre anyhow.

I actually regard cyberpunk as a quaint and horrendously dated form of punk sci fi - in the future there will be more wires.......

There is some really interesting lectures at berkley about CP, and some good books about the realm between occidentalism and orientalism that CP explores - kinda Sufu i guess?

[heBAY]

Soylent Green is a fantastic film, ive been pretty into CP for a while now.

GITS, Akira, Blade Runner, La Jetee, lots of cronenberg - videodrome being best....

Serial Experiments Lain

THX 1138

Tron

Metropolis

Pi

Anything by K DIck or Gibson,,,,

Sky Blue

Atwood novels

Biopunk....... a bravenew world..... all these sorts of things of orwellian dystopias...

http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/cyberpunk-movies-by-decade/

is a good place for movies but there are loads that are not there

Alphaville!

Cyberpunk is tricky because there are many different facets of it, "a dystopic, world where technology runs riot and big conspiratorial powers control the masses' ... is often to broad a description - sometimes people say it has to contain an anti-hero but many 'classic cp' films dont have a straight anti-hero...

I think its easy to fall into the trap of seeing any future dystopia as a cyberpunk situation... or a subgenre anyhow.

I actually regard cyberpunk as a quaint and horrendously dated form of punk sci fi - in the future there will be more wires.......

There is some really interesting lectures at berkley about CP, and some good books about the realm between occidentalism and orientalism that CP explores - kinda Sufu i guess?

Good list and points made...

I can't believe I forgot THX-1138. Not only a great movie...but Lucas' first attempt at many of the "special effects" seen in the original Star Wars (teleporting objects).

Wait, did I say Ronin as a Frank Miller cyberpunk graphic novel? I meant Hard Boiled. But Ronin I think applies too. Shit, even the Dark Knight Returns applies in many ways.

[heBAY]

Also...to add to the list...can't believe I forgot to mention this...

A Clockwork Orange is a good piece of cyberpunkdom. Read the book before I seeing the movie...easily gave me that Brave New World'ish imagery.

Liquid Sky...nuff said.

[alf]

i just realized nobody mentioned "soilent green"

damn i haven't seen that movie in years. if that's not cyberpunk than nothing is, haha.

my personal favorite though would have to be "ghost in the shell," i know jeepster said it lacked realism because it's anime, but i feel the themes in play are more realistic than most others. the way in which the series seems to probe the development of the internet and explores the idea of the internet being a collective consciousness simply blows me aways. i could type pages on the "ghost in the shell" franchise but quite frankly it's the one that impresses me the most. maybe it's all about personal preference.

I never got into the series, because the bootleg I bought had terrible subtitles haha. But the second movie, the scene with the cyborg anti-virus/firewall things, that is like the coolest moment in a movie that I've seen in a long while.

I'm not really worried about strict genre classification, but there are a lot of shows that have influences from cyberpunk. I'd throw Babylon 5, Firefly, and some episodes of X-files out there just off the top of my head...

Cyberpunk to me is distinguished by its emphasis on biological, information and communications technologies. It's not about spaceships and exploring the unknown and aliens. It's very much a product of/reaction to postmodernity, globalization, the information age, etc etc.

But I agree with the poster above who called it quaint and outdated. Cyberpunk cliches inform and permeate the mainstream culture, society, economy, etc. We're living it more or less. What's next? What about critiquing 'cyberpunk'? What about alternative voices, styles, narratives, etc? That's what I was trying to get at in my incoherent first post suggesting a hiphop and cyberpunk.

[GregEnemy]

my personal favorite though would have to be "ghost in the shell," i know jeepster said it lacked realism because it's anime, but i feel the themes in play are more realistic than most others. the way in which the series seems to probe the development of the internet and explores the idea of the internet being a collective consciousness simply blows me aways. i could type pages on the "ghost in the shell" franchise but quite frankly it's the one that impresses me the most. maybe it's all about personal preference.

Ghost in the Shell is also one of my personal favorites, it perfectly sums my vison of what cyperpunk is. Great thread by the way, cyberpunk is my favorite form of sci-fi.

If you want to know another good cyberpunk anime, check out Ergo Proxy: http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_Proxy

Its kinda cerebral, but it think its dope.

[isoform]

I think cyberpunk is cool but, its punk element notwithstanding, i feel like it comes from a white, military/industrial/academic trained and employed, upper middle class perspective's reaction to techno/social change. that's a clumsy way of putting it, but its late and im in a hurry.

what about cyberhiphop [lame word, just making the point of comparison] as a new or different cultural reaction to techno/social change? i know of a few examples, and the kanye/daft punk performance at the grammys hinted at an aesthetic combination... though that was mostly superficial.... but still

blah blah blah, just throwing that out there

i don't agree, but i'd rather flip it over to Octavia E. Butler rather than "cyberhiphop"...especially if that is being interpreted mostly as what kanye west has been up to...coz he sucks. a lot.

Also, from what I understand "cyberpunk" was criticized from the get-go as being way too ambitious of a word/concept. it was spoof'd and ridiculed. and all these spinoffs 'genres' are more or less named such to be cheeky (e.g. splatterpunk).

[Charlie Delta]

Sorry to keep going on about Steampunk, would maybe be interesting to start another thread for sub/spinoff genre's?

Anyway, wanted to share this with guys and gals:

Steampunk Starwars (links to a concept art forum thread)

and this blog (I'm not sure but I believe this was the first guy to come up with that mix, it's gotten quite some attention on the internets already)

[2000dB]

Argh, can't believe they're actually making a movie of neuromancer this time. So scared it's going to suck. Speaking of Gibson movie adaptations, there's johnny (the jap version has I think 6 min more and it's more violent) which is fine and also New Rose Hotel which I think is highly underrated.

What about the other Mamoru Oshii movies? Im not very big on anime, but I enjoyed his live action movies (red spectacles, stray dog, avalon, etc).

I dont understand steampunk... is there any interesting novels or movies incorporating it nicely or is it just nerds making case mods?

[Charlie Delta]

^I hope to have some time next week to make a specific steampunk thread...

[viv1984viv]

Also...to add to the list...can't believe I forgot to mention this...

A Clockwork Orange is a good piece of cyberpunkdom. Read the book before I seeing the movie...easily gave me that Brave New World'ish imagery.

Liquid Sky...nuff said.

See - for some people there is a strong case for Clockwork Orange and Sky Blue to be considered dystopic sci-fi and not cyberpunk..... both have punk elements but a lack of technology/cyber network etc...... so although they share similar themes with lots of CP there could be an argument made for seeing them as not CP...... that said there are alot of films and books not considered CP due to a distinct lack of PUNK.... which both the aforementioned movies score highly on! I kinda feel its important to not just see any punk sci fi or dystopic sci-fi or cyber story as CP..... although I dont really know where the parameters should be.....

Another thing is that Blade Runner doesnt contain is any of the cyber elements that Lain or Neuromancer have...... hmmmmm its tricky - but im interested in all of the above themes.

Greg Niemeyers Berkley Cyberpunk Course is great.

[heBAY]

Viv1984...I'ma give you a more thought out reply when I have some time...

I just wanted to say that I owe you guys some pics of some mint condition boxes I still have in my cribbo.

[viv1984viv]

I never got into the series, because the bootleg I bought had terrible subtitles haha. But the second movie, the scene with the cyborg anti-virus/firewall things, that is like the coolest moment in a movie that I've seen in a long while.

I'm not really worried about strict genre classification, but there are a lot of shows that have influences from cyberpunk. I'd throw Babylon 5, Firefly, and some episodes of X-files out there just off the top of my head...

Cyberpunk to me is distinguished by its emphasis on biological, information and communications technologies. It's not about spaceships and exploring the unknown and aliens. It's very much a product of/reaction to postmodernity, globalization, the information age, etc etc.

But I agree with the poster above who called it quaint and outdated. Cyberpunk cliches inform and permeate the mainstream culture, society, economy, etc. We're living it more or less. What's next? What about critiquing 'cyberpunk'? What about alternative voices, styles, narratives, etc? That's what I was trying to get at in my incoherent first post suggesting a hiphop and cyberpunk.

Just thought id ramble on and expand on this - william gibson said on his turn to present time fiction that he couldnt write about the future because we were already living in it - I think anyone who looks into cyberpunk ( and remember- the most CP works are essentially very dated and 80s ) will see CP in real life - many areas of life are so sci fi its a joke. I think Biopunk, which is often mixed with CP, is actually going to be seen in a similar manner in 40 years time - the cheapest foods are GM, ( and this example just shows how much the components of genres and subgenres mix ) remember in Neuromancer how Case described the luxury hotel where people were soooo rich they could even buy real naturally grown leather!!!!! Not GM product!

My girl actually told me about the most expensive steak in the world being genetically created and grown... But im losing my points, firstly that CP is an 80s vision of the future, and some parts are now just life, other just as defining elements are cheesy and stupid ( e.g. - physically life has less technology in than expected back then, rather than computers dominating life and rooms they have seeped into the background holding a much more abstract and fundamental position ).... secondly i wonder if the later Biopunk themes will contain just as many false assumptions about how life will turn out....... No one has mechanical eyes, I wonder what aspects of Biopunk ( things like Oryx and Crake I guess too ) will totally never happen and come to be seen as dated misconceptions about the future.....

Wish I was at home, then I could go through my stuff and mention sooo many more films and books and stuff.

Rick - if your reading this - id so buy a laboratory grown leather jacket if you could make one, guess it would be kinda aligned with that cool dichotomy of luxury and apparent scruff / hidden opulence thing you sometimes have....

[Charlie Delta]

Gattaca mentioned already?

[jeepster]

See - for some people there is a strong case for Clockwork Orange and Sky Blue to be considered dystopic sci-fi and not cyberpunk..... both have punk elements but a lack of technology/cyber network etc...... so although they share similar themes with lots of CP there could be an argument made for seeing them as not CP...... that said there are alot of films and books not considered CP due to a distinct lack of PUNK.... which both the aforementioned movies score highly on! I kinda feel its important to not just see any punk sci fi or dystopic sci-fi or cyber story as CP..... although I dont really know where the parameters should be.....

Another thing is that Blade Runner doesnt contain is any of the cyber elements that Lain or Neuromancer have...... hmmmmm its tricky - but im interested in all of the above themes.

Greg Niemeyers Berkley Cyberpunk Course is great.

i'd disagree that Clockwork Orange lacks the cyberpunk edge. many of the stories that later cyberpunk films were based on came from the same fertile period of writers such as Burgess, Dick, Burroughs, and the like. in essence, the concept of a dystopian future, aside from the orwellian base, has been there. the 80's, which saw one of the greatest technological booms since the early days of the industrial revolution, was obsessed with filling everything with gadgets and wires and creating an atmosphere of superiority simply by having more wires than the next thing over. you see this from the late 70's on with films like The Alien and eventually culminating in the best example of Blade Runner. kubrick decidedly left the technology somewhat ambiguous in the movie adaptation of A Clockwork Orange and rightfully so. it focuses more on the inherent pyschosis that exists in the future, rather than the psychosis technology creates (and how they try to repress it with that technology). the who genre-fication of the concept takes away from its overarching theme, and i think its important that we discuss all the forms and conceptual permutations that it has become, steampunk, biopunk, etc. etc. by turning each seperate entity of it into a microcosm, you sorta lose the base for a good discussion.

[jeepster]

also, while it does rely on more of a sci-fi basis, the Dune series and Foundation series are both enormously influential to all science fiction writers, cyberpunk especially.

[viv1984viv]

All im saying is people sometimes people have very general definitions of CP and others have very narrow definitions..... some might say it has to have an anti hero using tech know-how to over come the powers that be ( Case? ) - a kind of strict "cyber"-"punk" definition. Also I think its important to realize all these genres approach similar themes and concerns from differing angles.... so while its interesting to try and position the many parts that make up CP ultimately I dont want to discuss genres and what is and isnt biopunk or whatever. I think the wider, more socio-polical elements of CP are whats of interest.

That said - thinking about the genres, especially in a more narrow context of regarding the films or books as art within a time IS interesting too.

hebay - awaiting your post.

Anyone have any thoughts on the post 911 eroding of our freedom, or the cyber thought control etc - the new legistlation for extreme pornography? Chinese Google?? My Space? Paypal? - all interesting

Or the influence of this genre on fashion???

[Charlie Delta]

[heBAY]

hebay - awaiting your post.

Anyone have any thoughts on the post 911 eroding of our freedom, or the cyber thought control etc - the new legistlation for extreme pornography? Chinese Google?? My Space? Paypal? - all interesting

Or the influence of this genre on fashion???

Yes...pics on the way this weekend I promise...

Man oh man...don't get me started. All I have to say is, they've engineered a really really good version of the flu this season. The whole city has been sick. Being in a band doesn't help the situation neither (the paranoia or the flu/tonsilitis).

Microchips in passports, driver's licenses, pets, people...

Myspace is a whole other topic...I read a really interesting article about the "background" workings in this zine. Plus all of these fake-life social networking sites (the one's that happen on the computer) are the early workings of the "log into my cyberworld personality" (ala Lain, GITS, Bloodnet, etc. etc. etc.).

What about Paypal? You can do some pretty interesting stuff with it (though I haven't had the money nor the care to experiment).