Retail Prices in the U.S.A.---"I'm a cool rocking Daddy in the U.S.A."

[blake]

I'm getting the impression that Kiya and Gordon probably pay wholsale prices that are pretty close to what someone would pay from a Rakuten shop. If that is the case, then their markup is completely justified. It's not like Skull, Warehouse, Samurai, etc... have a US distributor that would bear import duties, freight costs, etc. I've bought a couple of pairs of jeans from Blue in Green. One pair fit perfectly, and another was not the fit I wanted. It would have been no problem to return the pair I didn't like, but I'm fortunate enough to work with a fellow denim junkie, and he bought them from me the same day, and paid full pop for them. It's nice having the option of an exchange, and it's a big time plus to be able to correspond with people who speak English (no slam intended there). I haven't bought from Self Edge yet, but it's only a matter of time until I do. Service makes the sale.

I think gas is way cheaper in Iraq...

This was exactly what I was going to say. Generally, retailers are taking a standard markup. This markup is applied to the wholesale price. If Kiya is retailing the jeans for 280, I am assuming this is based on a specific wholesale and markup. I can assure you (as another retailer who has some similar product) that he is not screwing you guys. The thing that people forget is that out of your "profit" from a pair of jeans you have to subtract three things. Expenses (rent, employees etc), markdowns(when shit does not sell) and shortage (theft). I can assure you that by the time you subtract these things out of the profit that you make on each jean, it is not a fortune. I think his prices are very fair based on all of those factors and what he must be paying for each jean...........

[Guest StuckOnStupid]

You should visit some cool guy stores in Toronto that mark things up 100-200% more than retail.

HA! kidding, you aint.

this is why i refuse to buy a fucking thing from these sheisters.

[gimmegimme]

You should visit some cool guy stores in Toronto that mark things up 100-200% more than retail.

I guess its morally wrong of me to go to stores and try shit on and then order it online for 1/2 the price...off to hell I go. (I'm specifically speaking of purchasing items in Canada...we get ripped off here...so even shopping at SE, BiG, Context, etc. saves us money)

[LA Guy]

HA! kidding, you aint.

this is why i refuse to buy a fucking thing from these sheisters.

Well, not sure exactly which stores you are talking about, but unless goods are NAFTA friendly, Canadian retailers have to pay hefty tarriffs on top of freight if the distributor is based in the US (which, more often then not, it is.) So, landed, product often cost a lot more for Canadian retailers than for US ones. That is why retail prices are generally higher in Canada than in the US.

[eldave04]

LA Guy, he s talking about the Toronto stores.

While we all understand that retail is higher in Canada, some of these guys are on some next level reseller shit. They are definitely as bad or worse as eBay resellers. I have even been to one Toronto store that was selling fake bape as real bape with the markup.

I still do not try shit on in Canada then order it from the internet, I did that once, and felt so dirty after. I take my chances with sizing.

Sorry to derail this thread, but if you don t want to pay for the service kiya is providing, then don t. Just don t make threads against someone that is helping sufu, and that many people on this board find beneficial.

[sidneylo]

This was exactly what I was going to say. Generally, retailers are taking a standard markup. This markup is applied to the wholesale price. If Kiya is retailing the jeans for 280, I am assuming this is based on a specific wholesale and markup. I can assure you (as another retailer who has some similar product) that he is not screwing you guys. The thing that people forget is that out of your "profit" from a pair of jeans you have to subtract three things. Expenses (rent, employees etc), markdowns(when shit does not sell) and shortage (theft). I can assure you that by the time you subtract these things out of the profit that you make on each jean, it is not a fortune. I think his prices are very fair based on all of those factors and what he must be paying for each jean...........

Blake you make a good point. The previous posts too by hollaforadolla and eldave04 were on point. As strong as some people's opinions are on the pricing, it does not ignore the fact that the math adds up. In fact, everything everyone says makes the price more than worthwhile.

I look at it this way--there was an awesome venue where I met a lot of the folks here, made new friends, and got to learn more about some denim I had not previously seen in person. Along with that, the service was impeccable (same goes for BIG) and Kiya's one of the friendliest guys out there. He even got my dad to shill for a denim jacket that pretty much looks completely badass (and is 21 oz. selvedge .)

It is cheaper through Rakuten, but my experiences in the past with retail here has made my experience in Japanese denim a lot more enriching and worthwhile, not to mention the incredible wealth of camraderie that has been built from being able to interacte with a local stateside store--not just with the employees, but with other patrons who are interested in the same thing.

[Tarmac]

keyko just buy from rakuten then.

[tweeds]

okay just to set things back on point here--i'm not saying anything about selfedge because BIG's prices are equally high relative to japanese prices. i don't think anyone has a right to say "okay, everyone should buy from japan and you're a fool if you don't" or "everyone should support our local stores and damned if you don't" because rationally one would expect each consumer to make a decision to the best of his/her (BTT/Anny, if you will ) knowledge and beliefs about price vs non-price factors.

what i am curious about is precisely what blake has supplied the answer to.

Generally, retailers are taking a standard markup. This markup is applied to the wholesale price. If Kiya is retailing the jeans for 280, I am assuming this is based on a specific wholesale and markup. I can assure you (as another retailer who has some similar product) that he is not screwing you guys. The thing that people forget is that out of your "profit" from a pair of jeans you have to subtract three things. Expenses (rent, employees etc), markdowns(when shit does not sell) and shortage (theft).

because i'm interested in knowing is what goes into determining the prices for the pair of jeans. and to follow up on that, why is there the price differential between singapore and USA B&M stores? is it shipping, or customs, different markups, or a different wholesale price/min. quantity?

why start this thread? it was because this discussion was shitting up the flat head thread, and because i felt that instead of having little skirmishes all over the board, why not have a thread of its own to hear some quick answers.

[Dogfarm]

Sorry I should clarify. I don't think the premise for the thread is ridiculous but the logic behind and argument advocating online purchasing(rakutan/mil-mil etc) VS Selvedge/Big/bluegreen etc is flawed.

The value of being able to try on and feel clothing as well as a store's employees, lease, insurance, tax, duty and tariffs, as well as stocking and loss expenses; more than accounts for the price difference you would see between online purchases and in person retail stores.

As a PS I have been charged duty on jeans purchased overseas and sometimes I have not it seems very hit and miss. When I have been charged duty on jeans from overseas it is about 30% you can find a duty calculator on the revenue canada website clothing is one of the highest duties for us.

[super]

Well kiya didn't open up SE so people can just go in, try shit on, and not buy anything (and have the audacity to come back again with their rakuten purchase and ask for a hem). I'd be pretty pissed off if I was in kiya's position. People who do this are remind me of hypebeasts who only show up at Supreme when they release something new, buy out the entire stock, and never come back. Talking with the owners and being a cool dude pays off.

[sidneylo]

because i'm interested in knowing is what goes into determining the prices for the pair of jeans. and to follow up on that, why is there the price differential between singapore and USA B&M stores? is it shipping, or customs, different markups, or a different wholesale price/min. quantity?

I don't think anyone would give out hard numbers, but from the previous posts I think there's a combination of all these factors in tax, shipping, and wholesale that is the reasoning for the markup.

Kiya mentioned before there is a near 20% tax on the entire value of a wholesale order, along with freight fees. If, suppose, a pair of jeans was $130 a pop (as a random figure) by a minimum of 100 jeans, that's $13,000 that would be taxable by 20% (which is $2,600.) I don't know about the freight but it would seem that 100 jeans would be cost quite a lot as well.

But of course... that's just speculation...

Well kiya didn't open up SE so people can just go in, try shit on, and not buy anything (and have the audacity to come back again with their rakuten purchase and ask for a hem).

Yeah. There are people who do that, which I think is a slap in the face to Kiya and others who risk a high overhead to provide a service for people who wouldn't otherwise have any option buy to buy blindly.

[sneakeraddict]

Just to add another dimension to this topic.

For those of us who live in Great Britain, Selfedge and BiG do not seem that expensive in comparison to buying directly from Japan.

However, this is because the value of the US $ is crumbling on the international market, so basically US imports into UK are currently very cheap.

Yes, I buy direct from Japan because it still works out a little cheaper - not much - and I really research the product and its sizing before I buy, to avoid any potential heartache. I would describe myself as a confident buyer who can buy with confidence from Japan, whereas the American stores are great for US citizens who arent so sure of what they need, and like to have all the usual Western 'options' of retailing. returns etc.

Personally, I would definitely love to order from BiG or SE if they would start concentrating on hooking up with Samurai, Ironheart FlatHead etc to produce the same jeans but in more Western body based sizes (e.g. longer inseam for me, wider waist sizes for others who need I guess) however, I did enquire about this and was told it wasnt possible.

[LA Guy]

2.2-2.3x the landed priced (wholesale+duty+shipping) is a pretty standard retail markup. As Blake says, the markup pays for overhead, shortage, as well as (hopefully) generating some profit, and it is also based on a projected sell through. A landed price of $120 is probably pretty reasonable for a small order of jeans from Japan (say, 50 pairs, assorted sizes and styles).

[kiya]

This will be my last reply to this thread, as i just want to clear up a misconception about mark ups..

In response to LA Guy's comment about "2.2x to 2.3x the landed price is a standard markup"

This is correct in the fashion/clothing/retail world.

But this is not correct when it comes what Self Edge is stocking.

My average markup on about 70% of my Japanese Denim stock has a 1.4x to 1.8x mark up. That is FAR lower than what i think most people think we mark up our products after all the fees/taxes/etc associated with importing the product.

Thanks all for the PM's regarding supporting our store, we appreciate your support.

[tweeds]

thanks for that post, kiya, and

also to L.A. Guy for that little tip about standard markups.

also, on a sidenote: that kiya, blake, sam, etc take the effort to add pictures, specs, and generally work up the buzz here is very much appreciated. the stores in singapore have no clue what they're selling, apart from the fact that they are skinny jeans (in the case of skull) or that they're a sugarcane blend (SC), basically when i'm talking to the people instore i get the feeling they're just there to sell stuff rather than care about what they're selling; and even though i'm sure some of them lurk on the forums--the choice of brands is too coincidental--only one store owner i know actually comes on and keeps us updated.

[keyko]

Thanks for your insights on this topic to everyone who posted.

The only thing I can't understand is the "support" being the prime motivation when it comes to purchasing something like Japanese jeans, ESPECIALLY when we are talking about online purchasing.

I've bought 4 pairs of jeans in Take5 during the last year. I like to go there and Benny the owner is a great guy and true denim head but these are not the factors that define my purchasing decisions. The prices a bit higher than direct from Japan but I am paying that little premium for the opportunity to take the jeans home immediately. Am I supporting Benny by doing so? Probably, yes. Do I want to support him? Yes. Because he is a great guy and doing a risky business which I like? No. Because the premium I pay to take jeans now is like a couple of drinks in a pub? Yes. So by the end of the day, I feel like my support to Benny's business is quite reciprocal, and hope you guys feel the same reciprocity for your support wherever your buy your jeans.

[Dick Danger]

let it die man, buy where you want, this is getting old

[parachutes]

you ought to start a proxy service if things are that cheaper in HK.

im sure you will have a very personal understanding of "mark ups", and also a bit on consumer mentality as well.

[Bijan]

2.2-2.3x the landed priced (wholesale+duty+shipping) is a pretty standard retail markup.

This formula isn't the case with more specialized, non mass produced merchandise.

[derdankhund]

It is also important to note that many of the retailers in Japan have a much larger and longer established clientele base. Why are these jeans coming from Japan? Because that is where they are made, and that has been their primary market. BiG and SE are two of the pioneers in the states, and as such, can expect a much less steady flow of business, precisely because they are relatively unknown and are defining what is still indisputably a niche market compared to overall designer denim sales in the US. To expect similar pricing taking into account shipping, VAT, rent, employees, etc, especially when these businesses are just starting up is unrealistic at best.

[Blackplatano]

this thread is full of unsupported conclusions, shitty premises and overall bad logic.

NO jeans discussed in SF are worth their price. $300 for a pair of jeans that takes $30 (or less) to make is ridiculous. Why?

1) They are raw.

Raw jeans require less effort to make than distressed jeans. This, in an ideal world would make raw jeans cheaper. Rawness should not be a selling point to drive up the price since in essence they are "unfinished".

2) Lacking details.

Most of the jap jeans are repros. they lack individuality, good hardware, details, or a lot of things that could potentially distinguish them. It does not take creativity to make those jeans. After all, they are just copies.

3) Construction

The construction on jap jeans is not the selling point. I have seen cheaper cheaps put together better. I would consider the construction average.

4) Original levi's were cheaper

I might not have any receipts from 1947, but my understanding is that jeans were used by the poor working class. Farmers, construction workers, etc. Old timers have told me that the original levi jeans (that the jap companies copy) were very afffordable when they were kids (1940's +). These are the same people that still think $50+ for a pair of jeans is alot of money. Since those original Levi's were the quality standard that the jap companies try to reproduce, it makes no sense that repros are way more expensive.

Why are the jap jeans so damn expensive?

Because people are willing to buy them. If you take the bussiness side out of the equation, A pair of dyed cotton trousers would no way be worth over $100.

Sevens and true religions are also not worth their price. That is probably the only sentence that SuFu would agree with me on. SuFu would probably argue that 7's and TR's are inferior because of the quality of the denim, etc. SuFu would say that marketing is what drives the price of mainstream jeans. SuFu would say that jap jeans are different.

Unfortunatly, SuFu doesn't realize that not marketing is a form of marketing. Yes, jap jeans have been fed to you in the same marketing sense as mainstream jeans. How? By you being conditioned by your peers in superfuture.com. Visiting superfuture is an extreamly good way of being conditioned. Why? Being exposed to the same community will eventually lead to you sharing believes with that community. So basically, people will start believing something just because "everybody" else believes it.

Don't believe me? Need some example?

1) zippers

People here like buttoms despite the convinience of zippers. Some people even admit but that they think zippers are more convinient. Others give LAME reasons for liking buttoms. They simply prefer buttom fly because others do.

2) Nudie

Nudie used to be hailed in SF. Great fit, good construction, good denim and overall quality. BLA BLA BLA. then all of a sudden some key members get tired of nudie and guess what. It suddenly sucks. Some say it's because it started to be too popular, but plenty of people have never seen nudies in person and have no real reason to think that it is mainstream,other than that they heard it on SuFu.

Also, popularity does not change the quality of jeans. So all the good qualities nudies had did not disappear just because your neighbor wears them now. This proves my point.

Eventually jap jeans will suffer the same fate as nudie and all of a sudden all the justifications for wearing stiff, generic looking jap jeans will disapear.

I like repros. That point might seem contradictory to this post, but i like them. They have a lot of good things going for it. But let's not forget that distressed denim exist for a reason.

I just realised this post went a little off topic from the original subject, but fuck it. Im not editing it right now, i have shit to do. Spelling be damned.

P.S I expect to be flamed since that's exactly what a group of deeply committed followers would do. So flame away, prove me right

[derdankhund]

this thread had nothing to do with whether or not three hundred dollar jeans are worth the money. it was about price differences between retailers in the states vs. japan.

no one needs to flame you...you just did it yourself...

[Blackplatano]

this thread had nothing to do with whether or not three hundred dollar jeans are worth the money. it was about price differences between retailers in the states vs. japan.

no one needs to flame you...you just did it yourself...

And im saying the prices are BOTH unfair...Read between the lines.

[Bijan]

Okay. Sure, Levis were cheaper than the repros are. BUT- new 501s are not made like they used to be. Period. Things were made a lot differently in the 40's. Here's the quickest analogy I can make right now.

this is my bathroom:

Now, 60 years ago, this was a normal, routine bathroom. No big deal, right? You were having an apartment built, this was how a lot of bathrooms were built out. The price wasn't an arm and a leg. Fast forward to 2007. To get this kind of tilework done would cost an arm and a leg.

Think about a typical pair of shoes from the 40's, and how much an equal pair would be.

[derdankhund]

And im saying the prices are BOTH unfair...Read between the lines.

so you went on such a long rant in an attempt to make a subtle point, rather than just saying it in one sentence like you just did? that doesn't quite follow...

[poly800rock]

this thread is full of unsupported conclusions, shitty premises and overall bad logic.

Eventually jap jeans will suffer the same fate as nudie and all of a sudden all the justifications for wearing stiff, generic looking jap jeans will disapear.

your whole post is unsupported conclusions, shitty premises and overall bad logic.

saying raw jeans will go out of style is like saying a white t-shirt will be uncool next month.

[polishmike]

Yeah. There are people who do that, which I think is a slap in the face to Kiya and others who risk a high overhead to provide a service for people who wouldn't otherwise have any option buy to buy blindly.

If Kiya is offering hem service (which I'm not even sure he is) he shouldn't care where the jeans came from. Unless he specifies that he will only hem jeans bought at SE. I tired jeans at BiG and wanted to buy them a week after but they were gone so I got them on rakuten. I took them to Gordon to get them hemmed, paid the man for his service and I don't see any problems with that.

In this business there will always be people who come in and try things on to later buy them somewhere else. If I can save $100 bucks I might get something online but if I'm not sure about the fit or want to have it right away I might be willing to spend some extra. I bought some thsirts at AA back in the day but now that I know my size I order them from a cheaper place online.

[sidneylo]

If Kiya is offering hem service (which I'm not even sure he is) he shouldn't care where the jeans came from. Unless he specifies that he will only hem jeans bought at SE. I tired jeans at BiG and wanted to buy them a week after but they were gone so I got them on rakuten. I took them to Gordon to get them hemmed, paid the man for his service and I don't see any problems with that.

In this business there will always be people who come in and try things on to later buy them somewhere else. If I can save $100 bucks I might get something online but if I'm not sure about the fit or want to have it right away I might be willing to spend some extra. I bought some thsirts at AA back in the day but now that I know my size I order them from a cheaper place online.

Yeah I think he offers hem service regardless. I think it's very disrespectful in the sense that the people who do that are from a demographic that does not hold as much value in a relationship with owners and employees of shops/establishments. Call me old-fashioned, but I've noticed, from the time I was able to hang out at Self Edge, that there were people without much intent on buying--just to use the store as a fitting room and then leaving to buy it online.

I think Kiya mentioned once how kids will do that, then come back a few weeks later to try on another pair of jeans, wearing the ones he was trying on last time but obviously bought online. Getting a deal is one thing, but c'mon, save some damn face.

</chinese>

I'm starting to sound more and more like my parents.

[polishmike]

I agree it might feel disrespectful but he will never be able to stop it. I also think that sometimes people just don't have the cash and have to save for jeans for few months. So if they have a chance to save $100 they will. I also want to support BiG cause I really like everyone that works there but if I see the same pair of jeans in the supermarket for much less the same day that I was going to get them at BiG I will buy them here. At the end my satisfaction is more important.

[sidneylo]

That's definitely true.

I wonder how the disconnect between consumer and retailer has changed with the availability we've been able to have with online markets? Also, is this the reason for a shift in behavior with younger consumers who are using the Internet as a primary tool?

I feel as though this dichotomy is the reason why there's a lack of respect. I agree with you, mike, that it can't be stopped--after all, the customer just wants to be satisfied. I find this thread more interesting for the reasons of my upbringing and how communications have changed over time. Terms like brick and mortar shops are a bit foreign to me up until I started buying things on the Internet, since I was used to buying things from stores with live, human customer service.

Also, this trend may or may not be applicable to other markets as well. What does this say for retail in general? Since we're talking about Japanese denim now, should we consider the availibility of almost everything elsewhere for a better price? I've noticed with streetwear hitting a plateau and slumping, that I can only imagine stores are suffering as well.

I'm rambling, but yeah... feel free to keep me in line or chime in.