Japanese language and career

[horriblyjollyjinx]

So I've been thinking about doing an exchange year in Japan and looked it up yesterday and it seems like I can get a scholarship and go to Waseda for one year.

What I want to know, though, is how well speaking Japanese and/or having experience from the country would benefit me, and certainly know how well it would compare to Chinese in terms of $$$$$$$.

Obviously Chinese is THE language to learn, but I'm hoping that Japanese will also attract [western] employers.

I'm studying Industrial Engineering and Management which is basically engineering + economy & management. I'm completely indifferent to the engineering part though.

It seems that I can choose to either study something that relates to my program, liberal arts, or the Japanese language for one year. I'm leaning towards learning Japanese. If I could take some management or economic courses that would also be interesting.

Obviously no one can predict the future and tell me how it'll work out if I decide to take Japanese, so let's put it this way; how has knowing Japanese affected you and your career? Would you recommend it to someone else?

[mwrenchd]

One of my wife's majors was Japanese. She studied there for a total of about 2 years and, while not fluent, was certainly quite proficient in a conversational and academic context. She managed to swing a sweet Japanese society fellowship out of it for law school, but when it came time to go job-hunting, it didn't really amount to much. Not being of Japanese descent and not being able to speak Japanese well in a male-domniated business context, which is quite different from the Japanese that is taught in universities, did her in. Most American men w/o Japanese-speaking family sound very effeminate, I'm told.

I do think if you want your Japanese training to be a significant professional benefit, you really have to buckle down and study it seriously for a number of years, and *make sure* that you get serious business Japanese training. The fact is, there will be plenty of Japanese-Americans who will be better positioned than you, so you will need to work that much harder.

That said, I would say that Industrial Engineering is a good major to pair with learning Japanese. Japan is where a lot of modern manufacturing practices originated or popularized - supply chain management/just-in-time, quality control/six sigma, lean manufacturing, etc. And aside from a few exceptions in the U.S. and maybe South Korea, leading Japanese companies are still considered the best at it, too.

Oh, as for $ - Japanese companies typically pay better. Plus as hard as Japanese is, Mandarin is much more difficult for Westerners (I studied Mandarin for 3 years + time in China and can't use it for shit now).

[djrajio]

If you're going to start studying Japanese/Chinese/any foreign language, do it with so much passion and hard work that you'll literally live and breath it everyday. Why do I say that? Because if you're going to half ass it, its not worth the time investment. Both languages have incredibily hard learning curves and require huge dedication. Is Chinese THE language to learn? It's debateable. First off, you need to realize that if you're interested in dealing in domestic business, you'll need to be of Japanese / Chinese descent. If you're white/another race/etc., its not gonna happen. Stick to dealing with foreigners in Asia regions. Trust me, I see it everyday from experience. Japanese and Chinese corporates are still incredibily loyal and discriminatory and only want to deal with liasons of business companies with similiar likes. If you're a woman, count yourself out. It's possible but will be incredibily hard, especially with the afterhours smoozing at the hostess bar. Japanese DO NOT pay better than foreign companies. The pay is worse and benefits shittier. Stick to foriegn companies based in Japan/China. Engineering is a good profession but with increasing globalization/technological progression, any manufacturing industry has the potential for commodization and eventual outsourcing and automation. You want to be an a service sector, a middleman taking a portion of the profits between the business-to-business or at the cutting edge of new services. The hottest areas are industries that add value and efficiency to already existing businesses. Personally I would recommend consulting or finance, but I'm biased. For the original poster, I would NOT recommend you work for a Japanese manufacturing company. If you aren't Japanese, it'll be increasingly difficult to move up in the ranks, especially if you can't speak Japanese.

[Kasper]

if you're only gonna take one year of japanese, it won't do anything to your career. one year will only bring you to have real basic conversation and writing/reading skills so unless you want to continue with your studying for an extra 2 to 4 years (depending on how good you are, how much time you spend on it), it'd say it's worthless. i was at Waseda last year and for those student how started from scratch, most of them were quite disapointed at the end of the year because they were nowhere as fluent as they thought they would (even though they worked real hard).

the problem with learning foreign languages is that unless you go on to work in the country where you learned the tongue, it's pretty much useless for most ppl at an early stage of their career.

BTW, the CIA regularly do studying about languages learning (i'm too lazy to look up the link), but anyway, they put most languages in 5 categories depending on the difficulty of learning from an english speaker point of view. not surprisingly, arab, korean, mandarin and japanese form the hardest category. and they say that japanese is especially harder for english speaker because of the pronounciation (which i agree, i've seen so many english speakers speak really good japanese, but with awfull accent). anyway, they state that it takes a normal person 88 weeks of full-time (40 to 50 hours a week) studying in order to become fluent. say the average person will at most give 15 hours a week, you do the math...

[mwrenchd]

^^ good points djrajio & Kasper. I guess I wasn't clear though, as I think you misinterpreted a few things. I wasn't recommending working in manufacturing, just that the disciplines associated with good manufacturing companies (many of which are Japanese) can be valuable.

To echo your point re: working in services, those areas of expertise are absolutely valuable in the consulting world. There is a lot of high-dollar advisory work in old-line industries, and for the mid-level consultant to junior partner folks who are truly good, it is not unheard of to switch over to a plum operating role for one of the many private equity firms throwing money everywhere. Sure, not any consultant can do it, but the ones who have turnaround experience don't go begging.

As for the pay statement, sorry, poorly worded. I was comparing Japanese companies to Chinese companies, though for all I know, that has changed in recent years. In any case, no domestic Japanese or Chinese firm will pay more than the ex-pat packages that American or European companies will to work at an overseas location. No argument there.

[poly800rock]

It lists language difficulty according to The FSI (Foreign Service Institute) Rating Scale

It lists estimated learning times and things of that nature, and groups languages according to difficulty, as follows

Group 1

French

German

Indonesian

Italian

Portuguese

Romanian

Spanish

Swahili

Group 2

Bulgarian

Burmese

Greek

Hindi

Persian

Urdu

Group 3

Amharic

Cambodian

Czech

Finnish

Hebrew

Hungarian

Lao

Polish

Russian

Serbo–Croatian

Thai

Turkish

Vietnamese

Group 4

Arabic

Chinese

Japanese

Korean

I think anywhere in asia and trying to live/work with a non native skin color is very difficult. Have you considered other parts of Asia? Not to discredit Japan and China, but Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, etc are full of jobs and are all expanding their markets for the future as well. Ideal would be to get a job with a foreign company in those areas as your pay would be great and your cost of living pretty low. I've considered moving to Vietnam and working there many times since graduating, just haven't sat down and tried out the options yet. SF member Analyst just said fuck it and moved to Bangkok from the states and he's still there like a year or so later now.

[Tisswat]

I studied in Asia as part of an exchange project and did a local language course and some other economics courses. In the end, I regret not having gone for an intensive language course instead of some courses that I could have done anywhere in the world as well as at my home university. In other words, management courses are just management courses. The only thing that varies is probably the the level. The opportunity to study the local language however is unique.

And what is a 'better' language to learn? I'd say ANY language is worth learning. I learned how to speak Malay and although it doesn't seem very interesting from a business point of view, just being able to have basic conversations has opened many doors for me. Actually it still does to this day.

I think the most important thing is to try to make your time in Asia an unforgettable experience. Go for the country/culture/city/people that interests you the most and the courses that seem the most fun to do. Being happy in the place that you are is the best motivator there is. Just have fun! All the unimportant stuff (like a career) will then follow automatically.

[horriblyjollyjinx]

Hey guys, thanks a lot for your input.

I don't wish to work for a Japanese company, but a western one, not necessarily Swedish or in Sweden. I don't even really feel the need to be based in Japan either, just go there a few times a year maybe, or live there for a while.

What I'm hoping to do in the future is to work in fashion in some way, preferrably with denim. I was thinking that it might be good to know a little Japanese and about the society and customs/manners, and that I could act like the contact with the factories, mills, customers or whatever. Probably not speak Japanese with them all the time, but just knowing a little could perhaps make them feel more comfortable?

I am aware that my Japanese will not be all that useful in itself after just one year.

I also do NOT want to work with the technical aspects but rather the business/management side.

I am going to choose which field to specialize in soon, and I've narrowed it down to production & logistics, energy, and bio.

I've been thinking that production would also be attractive in fashion since every sector needs to produce and transport products, but the courses are quite heavy on the technical side, which is only a problem because I find it boring, and mainly targeting industrial companies.

Bio is a bit heavy on the technical part too, but at least it's more interesting. Dunno about usability, but it really doesn't seem like what I've actually learnt in school will matter at all, because no one from my program actually works as an engineer.

Energy is more focused on the business side, which is of course good. Only 3 courses are of technical nature.

But as I said, I'm hoping to work in the clothing industry. What do you think, would a little Japanese benefit me then?

[mwrenchd]

If you're sticking with industrial engineering with an interest in the apparel industry, I would suggest focusing on operations management, supply chain, and lean manufacturing, assuming you have courses that cover those topics. Try to get some basic accounting and finance course work too, if you can. If manufacturing companies are going to continue outsourcing, automating, and downsizing (particularly acute trends in apparel for the last 20 years), then you might as well be the guy making a buck off of it rather than ending up being one of the "redundancies".

[poly800rock]

Hey guys, thanks a lot for your input.

I don't wish to work for a Japanese company, but a western one, not necessarily Swedish or in Sweden. I don't even really feel the need to be based in Japan either, just go there a few times a year maybe, or live there for a while.

What I'm hoping to do in the future is to work in fashion in some way, preferrably with denim. I was thinking that it might be good to know a little Japanese and about the society and customs/manners, and that I could act like the contact with the factories, mills, customers or whatever. Probably not speak Japanese with them all the time, but just knowing a little could perhaps make them feel more comfortable?

I am aware that my Japanese will not be all that useful in itself after just one year.

I also do NOT want to work with the technical aspects but rather the business/management side.

I am going to choose which field to specialize in soon, and I've narrowed it down to production & logistics, energy, and bio.

I've been thinking that production would also be attractive in fashion since every sector needs to produce and transport products, but the courses are quite heavy on the technical side, which is only a problem because I find it boring, and mainly targeting industrial companies.

Bio is a bit heavy on the technical part too, but at least it's more interesting. Dunno about usability, but it really doesn't seem like what I've actually learnt in school will matter at all, because no one from my program actually works as an engineer.

Energy is more focused on the business side, which is of course good. Only 3 courses are of technical nature.

But as I said, I'm hoping to work in the clothing industry. What do you think, would a little Japanese benefit me then?

you might want to start getting your hands dirty now.....isnt sweden full of jean companies?

[apu]

anyone got some tips for someone who studies Biotechnology and Engineering but want to work in the commercial side?

[artificialsky]

anyone got some tips for someone who studies Biotechnology and Engineering but want to work in the commercial side?

quit school and start a t-shirt brand.

[apu]

quit school and start a t-shirt brand.

i AM out of school

and with no artistic/design talents, starting a tee shirt brand wont be fruitful

[apu]

with regards to learning foreign languages, I consider myself lucky, as i was able to learn both Mandarin and Cantonese when young, and i started learning English in primary school grade 4. and after spending 10 years in Australia, luckily my engish is functional

as with learning japanese, it was too hard to learn by my own (which i did in high school for a year) as no practice leads to no-good

[insomaniac]

my thought on the whole 'learning a new language' thing.

japanese is a difficult language, and although i am a native japanese- i still get confused at times when dealing with people on the business level.

but i do think that if you are trying to go into a career field that deals with japanese businesses in the future, it is always good to experience the cultural aspect of japan by living there for a bit.

there are some things text books or guidebooks can't teach when it comes to japanese culture (and subcultures), and i believe you are able to learn these things only by living there.

[horriblyjollyjinx]

you might want to start getting your hands dirty now.....isnt sweden full of jean companies?

how do you know I'm not?

If you're sticking with industrial engineering with an interest in the apparel industry, I would suggest focusing on operations management, supply chain, and lean manufacturing, assuming you have courses that cover those topics. Try to get some basic accounting and finance course work too, if you can. If manufacturing companies are going to continue outsourcing, automating, and downsizing (particularly acute trends in apparel for the last 20 years), then you might as well be the guy making a buck off of it rather than ending up being one of the "redundancies".

Yes, if I decide to take production as my field I will definitely be learning about Just In Time etc, and I'll have relevant economic courses no matter what field I choose.

The courses in production are very technical though, I'll actually have to even learn a little about the tools and machinery , but I understand that it could perhaps be the most useful route to go for me.

I am thinking from the perspective that I'll be involved with a clothing company and what would benefit me the most in such a situation, but I also have to consider that I may not be in that situation also.

If I am, I think that Japanese would be a good thing to know a little of, when communicating with Japanese high-end mills and factories as I understand that they don't do business with anyone. Therefore I think the language and knowing how to act would give me an extra edge. It certainly would if I start my own brand and need to go look for factories.

If I don't end up in the clothing industry, I'd rather see myself having chosen the energy program as it is more based on the business side. I do think that even if I choose this, I will still definitely be able to work with apparel companies, as I know that barely anyone who's graduated works within their field.

It'll take some time deciding this, I'll have to weigh interesting vs useful, and chance of different outcomes.

[mizanation]

HJJ, if you have a goal and follow it with all your heart--without giving up--you will eventually get where you want to be, man.

[Pandemonium]

Learning the Japanese language as a foreigner is by no doubt difficult, and it takes a lot of time and dedication to become fluent.

If you can, take every chance possible to utilise the skills that you learn, be it in the field of Chinese, Japanese, French, German -- whatever.

However, Chinese isn't the ONLY language of choice to learn. It is a language that you CAN learn. It's solely a matter of choice. The choice that you make, be it Chinese or Japanese should reflect on solely your interests.

I personally chose Japanese because it was mysterious - ancient and modern - at the same time. I don't know how it will benefit me in the long run, but there's a hidden joy of learning another language that never bores me.

Good luck, horriblyjollyjinx.

[horriblyjollyjinx]

Ohoy!

I've been selected by my school to go to Waseda for one year. I still have to complete the application and be approved by Waseda so it isn't 100% set yet, but hopefully and probably there is only a formality between me and Tokyo.

I'm trying to decided whether to just study Japanese for one year or study economics and business at Waseda's School for International Liberal Studies.

I'm currently leaning towards SILS since I will be able to take pretty much the same courses there as I would have taken here next year. If I choose SILS I would also take a few courses in Japanese.

What do you guys think? How much Japanese would I learn by studying Japanese full time and living in Japan for ten months? I believe I would be able to speak Japanese pretty well if did this, but I certainly wouldn't be able to read because of kanji.

What do you guiys think? How big is the reward/effort ratio for doing this?

How much would it help me get a job in Japan or in a country that does business with Japan?

And likewise for studying economics and taking just a few courses in Japanese?

Also taking general advice. I'll probably live in a school dorm, sounds like a good idea to meet people, right? I hope to hang out more with Japanese than exchange students though.

[2000dB]

Pro tip: Get drunk every night in Japanese, school is optional.

Seriously though, be careful of ghettoizing yourself with other foreign students. A lot of people seem to do that and it certainly won't help learning a new language. Go out as much as possible with japanese people who know as little english as possible. Alcohol will make you not realize how much you suck at first.

Learning a fair amount of kanji won't be as hard as you think... it wasn't for me at least and I hardly studied. I do suck at jap, but now I can decipher both chinese and japanese writing.

[horriblyjollyjinx]

Pro tip: Get drunk every night in Japanese, school is optional.

Seriously though, be careful of ghettoizing yourself with other foreign students. A lot of people seem to do that and it certainly won't help learning a new language. Go out as much as possible with japanese people who know as little english as possible. Alcohol will make you not realize how much you suck at first.

Yes, this was exactly the approach I had in mind.

But I also need help figuring out where to go out. I want to go to the same places the Japanese do and I don't like high profile or uptight stuff, like that Black List party in the Tokyo thread. I want to go to places where the number of people with a degree in economics are as close to zero as possible.

I'm guessing I would like to go to the same kind of places you do? If you want to you can pm me the names of those places or areas.

Are you still in Japan? Can I ask what and how you're doing?

[cyberPUNK]

i say go to waseda, join a circle, and leave the other exchange students in the dust. you'll get drunk with the members in the circle on a semi-regular basis and your japanese will definitely get better, but like other people said, studying it for one year in japan will not do anything of significance to your background. even if you take it as a major it largely depends on how fluent you are, and the way to prove that is to take the proficiency test. after about a year in japan you can expect to pass the level 4 and 3, but i doubt you could make it to level 2 proficiency (sorry, just being very realistic).

in my case i picked up a japanese major because funnily enough i wanted to read murakami haruki's novels in japanese someday. graduation is around the corner now and i'm looking to go to law school and specializing in international business law, hoping to make use of japanese as well as one other foreign language. the goal is to someday enter a company in the u.s. and transfer to their japanese branch.

[2000dB]

Yes, this was exactly the approach I had in mind.

But I also need help figuring out where to go out. I want to go to the same places the Japanese do and I don't like high profile or uptight stuff, like that Black List party in the Tokyo thread. I want to go to places where the number of people with a degree in economics are as close to zero as possible.

I'm guessing I would like to go to the same kind of places you do? If you want to you can pm me the names of those places or areas.

Are you still in Japan? Can I ask what and how you're doing?

Figuring out where to meet people and where to go is up to you. It just happens. As to places, it really depends, I had a few favorites, but anywhere can be quite fun, even the more uptight stuff is good and that's not particularly what I'm into. I'll PM you map to get to one of my favorite spots.

[herpsky]

what is your favorite spot?

Langerie pubs in ikebukuro?

[salaryman]

If you're going to start studying Japanese/Chinese/any foreign language, do it with so much passion and hard work that you'll literally live and breath it everyday. Why do I say that? Because if you're going to half ass it, its not worth the time investment. Both languages have incredibily hard learning curves and require huge dedication. Is Chinese THE language to learn? It's debateable. First off, you need to realize that if you're interested in dealing in domestic business, you'll need to be of Japanese / Chinese descent. If you're white/another race/etc., its not gonna happen. Stick to dealing with foreigners in Asia regions. Trust me, I see it everyday from experience. Japanese and Chinese corporates are still incredibily loyal and discriminatory and only want to deal with liasons of business companies with similiar likes. If you're a woman, count yourself out. It's possible but will be incredibily hard, especially with the afterhours smoozing at the hostess bar. Japanese DO NOT pay better than foreign companies. The pay is worse and benefits shittier. Stick to foriegn companies based in Japan/China. Engineering is a good profession but with increasing globalization/technological progression, any manufacturing industry has the potential for commodization and eventual outsourcing and automation. You want to be an a service sector, a middleman taking a portion of the profits between the business-to-business or at the cutting edge of new services. The hottest areas are industries that add value and efficiency to already existing businesses. Personally I would recommend consulting or finance, but I'm biased. For the original poster, I would NOT recommend you work for a Japanese manufacturing company. If you aren't Japanese, it'll be increasingly difficult to move up in the ranks, especially if you can't speak Japanese.

all true.

Even a decent grasp of Japanese doesn't amount to much as far as job prospects, etc. (Low-level translators sold separately) If you want to learn and study Japanese so you can be a competent member of society here, thats fine, at least you can hit on girls, read signs and menus, and watch TV. But if you think you want to work for a Japanese company, think again. Foreign employees get type-cast in "international" positions that amount to little responsibility and are often focused on your "native-English" ability. Japanese businesses don't buy things from foreign salesmen, and they don't put non-Japanese people on the career track--upward mobility is limited. You will never speak Japanese like a native-Japanese person and you have to accept that, but employers won't. Any chinks in your keigo armor will be obvious to everyone but you. I'm not saying there aren't jobs out there, I'm just saying they're not worth the studying you would have to do.

Work for a foreign company that does business Japan. (Get hired in your home country, and come here as an expat). You can make way more cash and dodge the tired bureaucracy of Japanese companies.

[2000dB]

what is your favorite spot?

Langerie pubs in ikebukuro?

Don't hate on my hood! gotta rep 東池袋. The best spot was my upstairs neighbor apt, but she was usually busy with other men. Next time you're there don't forget to hit on the 3 chinese whores in front of the family mart. Only 3,000Â¥.

[horriblyjollyjinx]

Yeah, I'm not expecting to get a good job with a Japanese company and I'm not sure if I'd want to either because of the cultural differences.

I probably won't even work in Japan after I've graduated. I'm just thinking of maybe prolonging this stay with another year or so by finding a job/internship.

[dismalfuture]

Don't hate on my hood! gotta rep 東池袋. The best spot was my upstairs neighbor apt, but she was usually busy with other men. Next time you're there don't forget to hit on the 3 chinese whores in front of the family mart. Only 3,000Â¥.

Damn, that's cheap. Many years ago I waited for like an hour at this payphone in Shin-Okubo next to the Lawson that's up from the McDiddlies at some ungodly hour once, and I finally clued in to the fact that the lady hogging the phone was a Chinese hooker from the massage house next door and she was calling home to China or something I guess. She got off the phone finally and spun around and offered up her services before I got my chance on the phone, by which time I was freezing and just wanted to make my call and get back in. She was polite about it though so it gave me this image of 'everyone in Japan is polite' that has stuck with me to this day...

[cyberPUNK]

Damn, that's cheap. Many years ago I waited for like an hour at this payphone in Shin-Okubo next to the Lawson that's up from the McDiddlies at some ungodly hour once, and I finally clued in to the fact that the lady hogging the phone was a Chinese hooker from the massage house next door and she was calling home to China or something I guess. She got off the phone finally and spun around and offered up her services before I got my chance on the phone, by which time I was freezing and just wanted to make my call and get back in. She was polite about it though so it gave me this image of 'everyone in Japan is polite' that has stuck with me to this day...

haha +rep if i could.

[Kasper]

Ohoy!

I've been selected by my school to go to Waseda for one year. I still have to complete the application and be approved by Waseda so it isn't 100% set yet, but hopefully and probably there is only a formality between me and Tokyo.

I'm trying to decided whether to just study Japanese for one year or study economics and business at Waseda's School for International Liberal Studies.

I'm currently leaning towards SILS since I will be able to take pretty much the same courses there as I would have taken here next year. If I choose SILS I would also take a few courses in Japanese.

What do you guys think? How much Japanese would I learn by studying Japanese full time and living in Japan for ten months? I believe I would be able to speak Japanese pretty well if did this, but I certainly wouldn't be able to read because of kanji.

What do you guiys think? How big is the reward/effort ratio for doing this?

How much would it help me get a job in Japan or in a country that does business with Japan?

And likewise for studying economics and taking just a few courses in Japanese?

Also taking general advice. I'll probably live in a school dorm, sounds like a good idea to meet people, right? I hope to hang out more with Japanese than exchange students though.

been meaning to post in this thread for a while.

as i've said in other thread, i did spend a year a Waseda at SILS so here's a few advice concerning the school. there's a huge difference in between the stand-alone japanese program and the classes you get at SILS. the pace of learning is much much quicker in the stand-alone japanese program and you cover so much more during a year than you would at SILS. i had taken 2 years of japanese prior to going there and the classes i had in montreal were much harder (but we also learned much more) than what i had at SILS. anyway, if you are serious about learning japanese, i would definitely advise you to get into the japanese language only program, even though you would most likely have to do some extra classes at your home uni. if you decide to go with SILS, try to do an intensive course prior to going (if you have time/can afford it) so you wouldn't be put in the lowest level. another thing to keep in mind about SILS is that although pretty much all local students speak japanese fluently, pretty much everyone uses english and do not give a shit about helping you improve your japanese (especially if you are a beginner). also, international students are put with other international students in the dorms, not japanese students.

otherwise, i would like to reinforce what everyone else said that unless you are ready to commit 3-5 years of your life to learning japanese, you'll never get any benefit out of it, except to be able to tell people you studied abroad. i've been around many many people that learned japanese, but only a handful out of literally hundreds of them have ended up really benefiting and using their language skills and they were usually the ones that ended up fluent for real (which is a very tiny minority of all the ppl who start).

i hate to quote this, but there's a lot of truth to it. http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wordpress.com/2008/02/22/72-study-abroad/

studying abroad is a wonderful experience which i definitely recommend to everyone (i personally did a semester in norway and a year in japan and definitely would do again), but i think many university students have unreasonable expectation of what it'll bring to them in terms of experience, opportunities, etc. as long as your expectations are in line with what is possible and that you realize that learning japanese will require extreme dedication and hard work, then i'm sure you'll have tons of fun.

last advice, like people said earlier, joining a circle is probably the best think you can do.