football: the beautiful game

[LaiShin]

PES 2008 is out here in the UK/Europe. Not that impressed really ... still managed to spend enough time playing it to win the Master League though. Awful lag on the Xbox Live too, which is most disappointed; hopefully thats only temporary. Maybe I'm just beyond my student days of sitting around banging in goals with Adriano, I dunno but the gameplay just isn't quite as good to me.

If u're still relying on Adriano to score, u better look for alternatives. He is nerfed to a mortal now

[plongin]

I think Ferguson pales in comparison to Wenger who can spot emerging youngsters discarded by other big clubs and make them into the soon to be mega stars they are. And he doesnt scream at them either.

Duff? Is he still at Newcastle? He has been injured so long everyone forgot about him.

hmm. lets evaluate that now.

Ruud, Cantona, Schmeichel, Giggs, Beckham, Stam, Ole Solskjaer, Neville, Keane, Ronaldo, Rooney,

Henry. Fabregas. Viera. Ashley Cole. Anelka. Ljungberg. Pires.

How does that compare?

[beast]

hmm. lets evaluate that now.

Ruud, Cantona, Schmeichel, Giggs, Beckham, Stam, Ole Solskjaer, Neville, Keane, Ronaldo, Rooney,

Henry. Fabregas. Viera. Ashley Cole. Anelka. Ljungberg. Pires.

How does that compare?

Young stars. Nobodies. Rooney and Ronaldo were rising stars. Beckham - yes. Giggs, Neville and Scholes - Maybe. Cantona was shining in Leeds already.

[polishmike]

Stam was the most expensive defender in the history (until Ferdinand I believe) when he came to Utd from PSV. When Ruud was joining them the fee was a British record and I'm pretty sure it's still a Dutch record. Schmeichel was a very successful keeper at Brondby and was already voted in top 10 keepers in the world when he joined Utd.

Wegner buys youngsters by the dozen (Ferguson and Rafa are doing the same now) and he was always the best at not only finding the talent but polishing it. He's a geography teacher by trade and maybe those skills helped him with the youngest players.

[fatchino]

Ah we could argue about this until the two of them retire....

Bobby Pires and Thierry Henry were hardly unknowns when Wenger signed them. He's had the odd moment of poor judgement when it comes to signs too ... who could forget Francis Jeffers or Igor Stepanovos. Looking at the team he has assembled now Fabregas, Flamini, Eboue, Toure, Sagna, etc etc etc were all relatively unknow youngsters when he bought them and they all seem to be developing brilliantly. You have to admire his youth policy, especially the way he handle the Carling Cup last year. The youngsters got themselves to the final therefore they got the chance of winning some silverware all on there own.

Fergie has his own policy going on there too ... it may involve spending a bit more cash but when he can I think he should. He's created an exciting young team that has the potential to be together and winning for the forseeable future. I am not sure exactly what part he had in the famous 'you can't win things with kids' team that went on to win numerous trophies, but he was certainly the one who gave them their opportunity to begin with. His success with youth recently might not be as stark as Wenger's in that he hasn't managed to find so many hidden gems but you have to give Sir some credit.

[plongin]

Young stars. Nobodies. Rooney and Ronaldo were rising stars. Beckham - yes. Giggs, Neville and Scholes - Maybe. Cantona was shining in Leeds already.

Stam was the most expensive defender in the history (until Ferdinand I believe) when he came to Utd from PSV. When Ruud was joining them the fee was a British record and I'm pretty sure it's still a Dutch record. Schmeichel was a very successful keeper at Brondby and was already voted in top 10 keepers in the world when he joined Utd.

Wegner buys youngsters by the dozen (Ferguson and Rafa are doing the same now) and he was always the best at not only finding the talent but polishing it. He's a geography teacher by trade and maybe those skills helped him with the youngest players.

ok so lets talk youngsters then.

what young stars did wenger buy that he polished into mega stars? if you want to talk abt potential, fabregas was talked about even before he signed for arsenal, so you could put him in the same category as ronaldo and rooney and cancel him out as a rising star.

you can't say that he's polished and nurtured youngsters to be stars. because he didn't always have a buy young policy (his first few championships were won with an old aging backline, and a midfield completely bought but no youngsters) i wouldn't even consider anyone on this current arsenal team stars (besides fabregas)....they havent come close to winning anything!

until arsenal wins something proper,

ferguson nurturing giggs, scholes, becks, butt, nevilles, brown, scholes is the only credible option here...all from academy level aged 17 onwards, and all played integral parts in securing many major trophies.

"Wegner buys youngsters by the dozen (Ferguson and Rafa are doing the same now) and he was always the best at not only finding the talent but polishing it." - haha, what has he found in dozens?... just because he found one thierry henry in dozens and dozens of pascal cygans doesnt make him a good polisher. (lets also take into account that henry was signed at the age of 22 - which is not a youngster, at the price of 10.5 million pounds - which in 1999 was still a pretty big transfer fee).

so I really don't think you can even make this a comparison, unless arsenal starts winning trophies this year. I think some of the youngsters that wenger has bought does have potential, but until they prove their worth, they will never be stars.

[polishmike]

ok so lets talk youngsters then.

what young stars did wenger buy that he polished into mega stars? if you want to talk abt potential, fabregas was talked about even before he signed for arsenal, so you could put him in the same category as ronaldo and rooney and cancel him out as a rising star.

No you can't. Fabregas never played for the Barcelona's first team. Wegner got him before he signed a professional contract. Most of Arsenal fans had no clue who he was when they heard that he signed. Rooney was the youngest scorer in the premierleague and was the one who scored on Arsenal and broke their unbeaten 30 game run. Rooney is also the most expensive teenager ever. Ronaldo was less known but a year before Utd got him he was at trial at Liverpool and was sent back to Sporting for another year. He also played in champions league before he joined Utd. Everyone was aware who Rooney and Ronaldo were before they joined Utd. they were one of the most exciting young players at the time (with Rooney generating more talk than even Messi). Fabregas was just some youngster from Barcelona reserves who had potential but besides Barca fans and Spaniards following the youth teams not many people knew about him.

Buying Cesc also started a new tread of buying young players before they sign the first professional contract. I don't follow Arsenal or Utd. buying but I can tell you that Rafa signs 3-4 youngsters each year that are pretty much stolen from their teams right before they put the pen to paper.

I never said that Wegner finds superstars. I just said that he finds young players with big talents that are fairly unknown. I'm not gonna get into the star debate here but from what you listed I don't consider phil neville, brown or butt stars. I agree about giggs, scholes, becks and maybe ever gary 'the cunt' neville but all of them are pretty old now.

I also never said that Henry was brought as a youngster cause he wasn't. He was bought by Juventus as an unknown future prospect from Monaco and since he never really got a chance at Juve, Wegner scooped him up. Wegner also coached him in Monaco so I guess Wegner also discovered his talent, just not at Arsenal.

[beast]

Stam was the most expensive defender in the history (until Ferdinand I believe) when he came to Utd from PSV. When Ruud was joining them the fee was a British record and I'm pretty sure it's still a Dutch record. Schmeichel was a very successful keeper at Brondby and was already voted in top 10 keepers in the world when he joined Utd.

Wegner buys youngsters by the dozen (Ferguson and Rafa are doing the same now) and he was always the best at not only finding the talent but polishing it. He's a geography teacher by trade and maybe those skills helped him with the youngest players.

I didnt know he was a georgraphy teacher. I only knew he coached in Japan previously.

[beast]

ok so lets talk youngsters then.

what young stars did wenger buy that he polished into mega stars? if you want to talk abt potential, fabregas was talked about even before he signed for arsenal, so you could put him in the same category as ronaldo and rooney and cancel him out as a rising star.

you can't say that he's polished and nurtured youngsters to be stars. because he didn't always have a buy young policy (his first few championships were won with an old aging backline, and a midfield completely bought but no youngsters) i wouldn't even consider anyone on this current arsenal team stars (besides fabregas)....they havent come close to winning anything!

until arsenal wins something proper,

ferguson nurturing giggs, scholes, becks, butt, nevilles, brown, scholes is the only credible option here...all from academy level aged 17 onwards, and all played integral parts in securing many major trophies.

"Wegner buys youngsters by the dozen (Ferguson and Rafa are doing the same now) and he was always the best at not only finding the talent but polishing it." - haha, what has he found in dozens?... just because he found one thierry henry in dozens and dozens of pascal cygans doesnt make him a good polisher. (lets also take into account that henry was signed at the age of 22 - which is not a youngster, at the price of 10.5 million pounds - which in 1999 was still a pretty big transfer fee).

so I really don't think you can even make this a comparison, unless arsenal starts winning trophies this year. I think some of the youngsters that wenger has bought does have potential, but until they prove their worth, they will never be stars.

Fergie was good at nurturing youngsters from Man U academy. But that was years ago when Becks and co rised to the top. Brown a top prospect? No way.

Henry was a speedy winger in Juve. Wenger converted him into an all out striker (which is another story on how Wenger can play players from their normal position) who was one of the best players in BPL.

If you measure stardom by the amount you will pay for them, then Fabregas and Van Persie will be stars because at their age and ability now, they can be worth more than 20 million pounds easy if they are for sale. Even Flamini and Sagna and Walcott looks good.

[beast]

No you can't. Fabregas never played for the Barcelona's first team. Wegner got him before he signed a professional contract. Most of Arsenal fans had no clue who he was when they heard that he signed. Rooney was the youngest scorer in the premierleague and was the one who scored on Arsenal and broke their unbeaten 30 game run. Rooney is also the most expensive teenager ever. Ronaldo was less known but a year before Utd got him he was at trial at Liverpool and was sent back to Sporting for another year. He also played in champions league before he joined Utd. Everyone was aware who Rooney and Ronaldo were before they joined Utd. they were one of the most exciting young players at the time (with Rooney generating more talk than even Messi). Fabregas was just some youngster from Barcelona reserves who had potential but besides Barca fans and Spaniards following the youth teams not many people knew about him.

Buying Cesc also started a new tread of buying young players before they sign the first professional contract. I don't follow Arsenal or Utd. buying but I can tell you that Rafa signs 3-4 youngsters each year that are pretty much stolen from their teams right before they put the pen to paper.

I never said that Wegner finds superstars. I just said that he finds young players with big talents that are fairly unknown. I'm not gonna get into the star debate here but from what you listed I don't consider phil neville, brown or butt stars. I agree about giggs, scholes, becks and maybe ever gary 'the cunt' neville but all of them are pretty old now.

I also never said that Henry was brought as a youngster cause he wasn't. He was bought by Juventus as an unknown future prospect from Monaco and since he never really got a chance at Juve, Wegner scooped him up. Wegner also coached him in Monaco so I guess Wegner also discovered his talent, just not at Arsenal.

Ferguson confirmed his intent to buy Ronaldo when he displayed his silky skills infront of Old Trafford with Sporting Lisbon. Even Nani and Anderson cannot be considered unknowns though they are young.

[polishmike]

Ferguson confirmed his intent to buy Ronaldo when he displayed his silky skills infront of Old Trafford with Sporting Lisbon.

Yep, but a year before he was already on trial at Liverpool. It looks like we agree on all this.

Just to add some players that Wegner signed/discovered: George Weah (world player of the year), Youri Djorkaeff and probably the best deal ever Nico Anelka who was bought for 500k and sold for over 22 million. From current team Fabregas, Toure, and Robin van Persie are pretty big stars and so was Vieira.

[beast]

Yep, but a year before he was already on trial at Liverpool. It looks like we agree on all this.

Just to add some players that Wegner signed/discovered: George Weah (world player of the year), Youri Djorkaeff and probably the best deal ever Nico Anelka who was bought for 500k and sold for over 22 million. From current team Fabregas, Toure, and Robin van Persie are pretty big stars and so was Vieira.

Wenger is also smart in letting go of his oldish players at the right time to at least get some money from them like Pires and Viera of late. Although I never expected him to dump Henry especially after he signed the big contract.

Ferguson is learning from him by dumping his stars van Nistlerooy but I think it that is not solely a commercial reason as Ruud was making life difficult for Ronaldo.

Speaking of him, he is looking good despite his age in 2 seasons at Real. Anyway saw the first half demolition of Valencia away. What a joke. No wonder Chelsea can beat Valencia so easy in Champions League. They looked like they are not even putting up any resistance at all.

[polishmike]

Second half was also a joke. I wonder if now when Schuster is rotating a lot of players at Real and they are playing pretty well people will finally start bitching about Rafa rotating at lfc.

[beast]

Second half was also a joke. I wonder if now when Schuster is rotating a lot of players at Real and they are playing pretty well people will finally start bitching about Rafa rotating at lfc.

I couldnt watch 2nd half without being late for work. Turns out I was late for work after watching the first half anyway. I found that match after watching Sheffield v Arsenal which turned out to be a bit boring in first half. They should have showed the Chelsea match which turned out to be another 7 goals thriller but not as one sided as the City match.

As for Real, Shuster should keep Raul, Ruud, Robinho, Snejder, Sergio Ramos, Diarra and maybe Guti playing at all times. Robinho's influence is really underrated. I wonder which young stud plays the best and is the heart beat for their team in La Liga? Messi? Aguero or Robinho?

[plongin]

I have to disagree with your initial assessment of fabregas. I follow barcelona quite closely, and I can tell you that he was showing potential even before he moved to arsenal. As a youngster, he might not have generated the same kind of interest as rooney or ronaldo, but it is unfair to say that he was a virtual unknown.

I think its impossible to compare wenger and ferguson and how good they are at nurturing young players.

true, rooney cost alot and ronaldo played first team at lisbon, but they were still diamonds in the rough, and also needed nurturing. they went from wonderkids to true stars.

wenger bought alot of youngsters, turning them into decent players yes, but not key players. most of those players won't even stand out if they were sold from arsenal to lesser teams. and wenger never had the opportunity to work with a potential wonderkid and turn him into an actual wonderkid. Lets see what happens with walcott; he's supposedly the brightest wonderkid in the arsenal squad now.

You might be right that wenger deploys a policy to sign players before they sign their first pro contract (I take your word for this, learn something new everyday), but that doesn't mean that he's better with the youngsters; its just the way he works.

some might argue that its harder to make good players out of average youngsters, some might argue that its harder to make wonderkids become world greats (especially with criticism for not living up to potential and probably a big transfer tag).

I just don't think you can compare their abilities to nuture youth. This argument could become insane and go right down to deployment and ability of scouts etc, ultimately, ferguson did something with kids and it worked out for him, wenger's trying, and we won't know until this current team matures, but its looking quite bright.

[plongin]

Yep, but a year before he was already on trial at Liverpool. It looks like we agree on all this.

Just to add some players that Wegner signed/discovered: George Weah (world player of the year), Youri Djorkaeff and probably the best deal ever Nico Anelka who was bought for 500k and sold for over 22 million. From current team Fabregas, Toure, and Robin van Persie are pretty big stars and so was Vieira.

anelka, weah and fabregas were superb spots.

djorkaeuff average, van persie was a potential star before signed, and toure is super overrated.

[polishmike]

I have to disagree with your initial assessment of fabregas. I follow barcelona quite closely, and I can tell you that he was showing potential even before he moved to arsenal. As a youngster, he might not have generated the same kind of interest as rooney or ronaldo, but it is unfair to say that he was a virtual unknown.

What I was saying is that unless you follow Barca closely it would be hard for you to hear about him. I also heard about him cause I watch fifa youth tournaments and read many articles but I didn't see him play for Barcelona's second team since thats not available to me and only saw him playing for his national team. I think many people were at the same position as me since there is not much coverage of the reserves. How many people knew about Giovani dos Santos a year or two ago and how many know now when he's already playing for the first team? He was great for Mexico in U-20 this year but not many heard of him before that.

[polishmike]

toure is super overrated.

i think he's way better than wes orange (i mean wes brown)

[beast]

wenger bought alot of youngsters, turning them into decent players yes, but not key players. most of those players won't even stand out if they were sold from arsenal to lesser teams. and wenger never had the opportunity to work with a potential wonderkid and turn him into an actual wonderkid. Lets see what happens with walcott; he's supposedly the brightest wonderkid in the arsenal squad now.

I just don't think you can compare their abilities to nuture youth. This argument could become insane and go right down to deployment and ability of scouts etc, ultimately, ferguson did something with kids and it worked out for him, wenger's trying, and we won't know until this current team matures, but its looking quite bright.

1. Birmingham got I think 2 Arsenal players (Djourou?) on loan and they were key players in their promotion. By most players who wont stand out I hope you dont mean Fabregas?

2. Whatever the future may hold, Wenger's system had produced (a) flowing football and great goals the envy of many clubs, ( good players who are cheap to buy and didnt cost million of pounds which the top 3 and others like Spurs, Newcastle cant say and © Gave Arsenal a huge profit second to Real. Of course part of the reason is due to Emirates having a huge capacity as well as (a) because if the football sucks, no one will come. Just look at clubs like Bolton and Boro which have plenty of empty seats every match.

[beast]

i think he's way better than wes orange (i mean wes brown)

Toure is a good centreback. One of the best in BPL. Brown is not going anywhere and will at best be a squad player. Fergie should just sell him unless he needs someone as backup in case of injuries or fatigue.

[plongin]

1. Birmingham got I think 2 Arsenal players (Djourou?) on loan and they were key players in their promotion. By most players who wont stand out I hope you dont mean Fabregas?

2. Whatever the future may hold, Wenger's system had produced (a) flowing football and great goals the envy of many clubs, ( good players who are cheap to buy and didnt cost million of pounds which the top 3 and others like Spurs, Newcastle cant say and © Gave Arsenal a huge profit second to Real. Of course part of the reason is due to Emirates having a huge capacity as well as (a) because if the football sucks, no one will come. Just look at clubs like Bolton and Boro which have plenty of empty seats every match.

Djourou didn't play for birmingham last year, and if you wanna talk about key players, danny simpson & jonny evans were key for sunderland too. and read carefully, i've already stated that fabregas is an exception.

and who cares about good players who are cheap to buy and didnt cost millions of pounds? they didnt win wenger anything! the last time he won stuff was when he paid pretty decent sums for pires and the likes.

looks like we've got a die hard arsenal fan on our hands or something, because as I said before, you're comparing apples and oranges. They don't scount the same way, they don't buy the same type of players with the same potential. You absolutely cannot compare. Say what you want, but if you really really wanna compare, you have to set the levels straight - which means - quantify. one trophy cabinet against the other. of course, i'll take this back in 2 years if arsenal wins the league, an fa cup and the champions league.

Toure is a good centreback. One of the best in BPL. Brown is not going anywhere and will at best be a squad player. Fergie should just sell him unless he needs someone as backup in case of injuries or fatigue.

i think he's way better than wes orange (i mean wes brown)

wow, whats with the personal attack. now we're comparing toure and brown?hahahahahahah.

yeah, i think he's better than brown too. but see, brown's not first choice in the starting back 4 at united, neither would toure if he got bought over.

[beast]

Djourou didn't play for birmingham last year, and if you wanna talk about key players, danny simpson & jonny evans were key for sunderland too. and read carefully, i've already stated that fabregas is an exception.

and who cares about good players who are cheap to buy and didnt cost millions of pounds? they didnt win wenger anything! the last time he won stuff was when he paid pretty decent sums for pires and the likes.

looks like we've got a die hard arsenal fan on our hands or something, because as I said before, you're comparing apples and oranges. They don't scount the same way, they don't buy the same type of players with the same potential. You absolutely cannot compare. Say what you want, but if you really really wanna compare, you have to set the levels straight - which means - quantify. one trophy cabinet against the other. of course, i'll take this back in 2 years if arsenal wins the league, an fa cup and the champions league.

wow, whats with the personal attack. now we're comparing toure and brown?hahahahahahah.

yeah, i think he's better than brown too. but see, brown's not first choice in the starting back 4 at united, neither would toure if he got bought over.

Time will tell who got the right approach. For sure all the spiralling transfer fees are getting so out of control, even Abramovich is unhappy about it. For sure Arsenal havent won any trophies but at the way they are playing, its only a matter of time.

But if Arsenal's approach is right, my other clubs do not have Wenger's golden touch in spotting good up and rising players and getting them cheap. Needless to say his methods are not 100% and not all will make the mark but those who do, will make up for the flops.

[plongin]

Time will tell who got the right approach. For sure all the spiralling transfer fees are getting so out of control, even Abramovich is unhappy about it. For sure Arsenal havent won any trophies but at the way they are playing, its only a matter of time.

But if Arsenal's approach is right, my other clubs do not have Wenger's golden touch in spotting good up and rising players and getting them cheap. Needless to say his methods are not 100% and not all will make the mark but those who do, will make up for the flops.

ok shebby singh, lets leave it at that.

on a separate note.

what's wrong with liverpool? their purchases are suspect, their rotation system is suspect, and even their fitness (as seen in the last 10 mins against arsenal) is suspect. whats going on?

[beast]

ok shebby singh, lets leave it at that.

on a separate note.

what's wrong with liverpool? their purchases are suspect, their rotation system is suspect, and even their fitness (as seen in the last 10 mins against arsenal) is suspect. whats going on?

Purchases suspect? Not really. Torres may not be at the calibre or as prolific as Eto'o or Ruud as a striker, but he has his upside. Babel is a good prospect. Benayouin good wide player. Pennant OK as a winger. Too bad they couldnt clinch Malouda but they just lack 1 or 2 top notch winger if Kewell cant recover full fitness and ditch Crouch. Mascherano is good and Alonso and Sissoko suit their purpose. Maybe a good central defender to support Carragher but with how stingy their defence is, you cant really fault them.

Fitness? Maybe due to their fitness coach ie. Rafa's bosom buddy leaving, but I dont really think thats the cause. In that match, Torres and Alsono were rushed back from injury and Mascherano got injured halfway I think. Other than that, they shouldnt have played that way against Arsenal but Rafa has to, due to all the heat on him. He has to be offensive and get an offensive line-up. If Pennant is there, he should use Pennant. If not, when Torres was injured, replace Torres with Kuyt, get Babel and Voronin as wide players. Pass the ball to Kuyt to make those runs to beat the offside trap. I think Rafa should be pleased with his attacking diamond and he should use it again when all the right players are fit.

Rotation system is wrong? Dont think there is anything wrong with it. As I said, you want to challenge for all trophies, you have to rotate.

Who is shebby singh?

[fatchino]

Moving on I know its old news now but everyone seen this?

Only way I can react is to treat it as comedy; otherwise i think I'd cry ...

JAR wotht hat much ... please!!

[fatchino]

Moving on I know its old news now but everyone seen this?

Only way I can react is to treat it as comedy; otherwise i think I'd cry ...

JAR worth that much ... please!!

[beast]

Moving on I know its old news now but everyone seen this?

Only way I can react is to treat it as comedy; otherwise i think I'd cry ...

JAR worth that much ... please!!

Gerrard is getting close to 4 times as much. Definitely more than 3 times as much.

I wonder how Riise feels knowing that.

[fatchino]

3 X 80,000 would be 240,000 British pounds weekly ... you sure?

I thought Terry was getting paid the most and he's on £150,000 supposedly.

[beast]

3 X 80,000 would be 240,000 British pounds weekly ... you sure?

I thought Terry was getting paid the most and he's on £150,000 supposedly.

Riise pay is for the entire month. He gets 80,000 pounds sterling after tax. His monthly pay is about 130,000 pounds. Gerrard is rumoured to get 100,000 pounds or more a week and Terry is 130,000 pounds a week. Sports Minister Sutcliffe said it was 150,000 but Chelsea corrected him. Both after their last big contract negotiations.

[fatchino]

80,000 per month would make more sense but the slip says pay period: week 24.