Gap Selvedge Denim Critique...

[kiya]

While reading my following post, please keep in mind that i'm just being nit-picky,

i don't truly

believe that a company as large as the Gap is going to properly represent a niche

item like Selvedge

Denim. Ironically enough, Gap spent their first five years in business selling

only Levi's jeans

from 1969 to 1974.

=-=-=-=--=

I've been very curious about the Gap Selvedge Denim that was released last year,

but hadn't gotten a

chance to see it in person. A friend bought a pair on sale for about seventeen

dollars just so we

can analyze it and see Gap's take on selvedge in person.

Just like i expected, the denim is strange.. They claim it's raw, but it definitely

has to be one

wash because not only do the denim fibers seem a slight bit broken but the rear

patch is slightly

worn in. The cut is shapeless and baggy and the inside waistband has the obligatory

kanji

characters silk-screened onto it.

There's a metal disc attached to the belt loop, this is where the misinformation

is printed which

i'm going to break down line by line. Here goes..

"Selvage seams are a sign of high quality denim."

Ok, so while this is not totally wrong, it's very misleading. It says to the

general public that

just because a pair of jeans are selvedge, that they are of a higher quality. This

is a common

misconception among people just new in the denim world. You can have selvedge denim

that is

absolute garbage in many senses, and you can have NON-selvedge denim that is unbelievable

in weave,

quality, color, etc...

"They're extra durable and designed to keep the fabric from unraveling."

Once again, totally false. There is no scientific proof that selvedge denim will

last any longer

than non-selvedge denim. Besides the durability statement, selvedge denim was not

"designed" to

keep the fabric from unraveling. Denim made on projectile looms do not unravel

because they're not

selvedge. I find it very funny that they boast their selvedge denim doesn't

unravel.

"Our selvedge jeans are made with premium ring-spun yarns on narrow vintage

shuttle looms"

How many denim geek terms can they throw into one sentence to confuse the general

public into buying

their poorly made and poorly cut jeans?

"more sizes at gap.com"

No thank you.

=-=-=-=--=

Discuss.

[__3xL]

I heard that the only reason they sell them so cheap is that the Gough have a tracking device built into them where the gvmnt can track your every move without having to load up the spy satellites ..

Hemmed into the coin pocket deep within

[fade to black2]

I don't know enough about denim or have seen Gap's selvedge denim to comment, but thanks for schooling me on this stuff...i could've been misleaded. Hell I remember seeing some Gap jeans that looked like one-wash ($98) a few months ago and was surprised they were going in this direction.

[Roflcopterpwnsyou]

I actually tried on two pairs of their selvedge jeans in the past two weeks, I work in a mall here in New Jersey so I stop in there every now and then. I actually heard a discussion going on from other people that even after they were finished reading the tag still could care less, so Gap's attempts to impress seem to be ignored. The prices also seem to be dropping rather quickly. They recently dropped the price on their PRODUCT RED line selvedge jeans cutting it basically in half from $198 to $98 along with the rest of the line, I guess it's just not doing that well. The fit on the RED jeans I actually liked, but I'm still going to wait till the price plummets some more.

Also, my girlfriend used to live in California and while she lived in huntington beach she spent some time up in sf over the past two years and when she said she wanted to go back, I tried to convince her we should go there instead of huntington, but only cause I wanted to visit your store haha. Unfortunately it didn't work out but I hope to make the trip one day!

[mvn]

I just bought a pair of Gap selvedged denim for like $25 (canadian). They're made in Macao and judging by some of the sewing techniques like how the belt loops are sewn underneith the waist I'd suspect that they were made in the same factory as APC's but thats just going out on a limb. That being said the denim is ok quality and really light but they're ugly as fuck. They're over washed and like sandblasted (hence the grainules of sand still in the pocket) and have some kind of brown shit thrown on them to give them the "garage wash" essence that the tag proclaims. But again $25 Canadian ($21.17 American)... you decide.

[abstraktgeformt]

I think it's totally unnecessary to rip Gap apart like that... As you stated, you can't expect them to do things right in the denim-head kinda way, so why even start...

I for one find it nice to have a cheap alternative, be it raw or one-wash. I don't really care about that little metal plate stating some bullshit.

ALD said their denim was selvedge but it's not (most of the time) and nobody really lost their mind over it.

When Uniqlo came out with selvedge denim, everybody was like "wtf? I need to cop those!" I bet they didn't get any flack (at least they didn't from what I read in the encyclopedia) because they are a Japanese brand........

Keep on discussing.

[transactionfee]

gap ceo fired today cuz kiya made this post exposing gap =/

[whodini]

I don't expect people at the Gap to know what selvage is other than what they see and have been told by boutique manufactures, from the exec's that cleared it to the whizzes at the marketing dept. The garbage bag fit really shows how they think using selvage denim is like using any other material and that they're not even trying to distinguish this "premium" line in terms of detail, cut, construction, etc. from their regular stuff. Same cookie-cutter design for everything.

That tag alone sounds like the copying/pasting from various brands' explanations of selvage, an utterly generic and utterly misleading (or wrong) mess.

But if one didn't know any better and had seen the term "selvage" in other high-end brands, I'm sure those words would look pretty and the price cheap.

[artificialsky]

THIS JUST IN: GAP INC SUES SELF EDGE, IRON HEAT, BLUE IN GREEN, SAMURAI, D'ARTISAN.

[diewhitegirls]

Erm, selvege IS designed to keep the fabric from unraveling. That doesn't necessarily mean that non-selvege will unravel (thanks to the fancy serging), but that still is the intent. While you can get nitpicky about the quality issue, fact of the matter is that all jeans on the planet as a constant, you will find higher quality denim with selvege as opposed to non-selvege 9 times out of 10. There are exceptions to this, but that doesn't make it as misleading as you make it out to be. Quite frankly, I picked up a pair of Gough's and the denim itself is quite nice (especially for $20), although the cut is admittedly horrific. I really don't get your gripe about the ring-spun/ shuttle loom comment. It's true, why the hell wouldn't you advertise that fact?

o_0

All in all, I find this post to be borderline useless.

[Larry!]

Yeah, cuts not that great, but the denim is good stuff. I actually just discovered they had coin pockets. It was a revelation. And they were selvage as well. Odd.

Anyways, I like them, they're breaking in nicely, and I didn't find any sand in any of my pockets?

[antirabbit]

Ill chime in for a buck three eighty's worth of hot air....

First, I totally respect Kiya, and most likely will patronize his store, most likely for years and years.

Gap fucked up on this, I think they saw a trend (raw or something like raw, japanese denim) and wanted to ride the wave. The unfortunate part is most denim heads care very much about other things (the things they left out for the most part on the Goughs), like cut, treatment of rivets and the pristine nature of the denim its self. BUT....these were never $300 jeans, they were not small scale production, and for $15 a total deal. For those of us that can not spend several hundred dollars on a pair of denim right now, it gets their feet wet, an appetizer for the tasty lines that SelfEdge and BIG deal in....Like wearing french cuffs on a shirt, or the waterfall effect of a Neopolitain sleeve head (copied to death, but aint nothing like the real thing), these "fake" "Japanese" "selvedge" "jeans", that I am currently wearing, serve their purpose well, I feel they are a good value, they wear and look different than oh, say 99.908% of all the shit people wear.

I cant wait for my financial climate to allow me to wear what you sell, and I will buy from you, I totally agree with your philosophies and most of your attitude of exclusivity and appreciation for the artistry that is put into the denim you sell.

BBBUUUTT

I would recomend a little graciousness Kiya, as the Gough, at least in my case, have helped to create a lusty customer for you when the finances warrant...

My BUCKTHREEEIGHTY

sorry for the spelling...haha.

[diewhitegirls]

Gap fucked up on this, I think they saw a trend and wanted to ride the wave.

Gap's been doing selvege for a long time.

[kelvin]

I have to say I agree with diewhitegirls. It's the gap! Can we say, huge marketing team and budget. Not much else, other than Paul got the boot today.

[Guest bigsink2]

How about a real critique? The cut is definitely not shapeless and baggy. They are a straight fit very similar to Edwin Sen or APC rescues. They run about 1-2 sizes large. Not everyone prefers tight thigh hugger denim. If I lay them over my APC's the cut is nearly identical. The Gaps being slightly wider throughout.

Like I said before come back when you have a real critique on the denim instead of the marketing coin.. The jeans are on sale for about $40 allover the united states. When I put them next to my Baggy Bjorns it makes me wonder why I spent $200 more on the Nudies.

We understand you are trying to deter customers from this cheap alternative to the brands you sell but atleast be reasonable with it.

[kiya]

To those that thought i was being harsh, i warned you in the first line of my post...

Like Kelvin said, this was the outcome of a multi-million dollar business' marketing team on a huge budget that turned out to a bit of a flop; especially considering they're now marked down to under $40 and they still have them in full size runs everywhere.

I was just having some fun and making a few observations.. nothing to get worked up over.

[blank]

Like Kelvin said, this was the outcome of a multi-million dollar business' marketing team on a huge budget that turned out to a bit of a flop; especially considering they're now marked down

Sure, but these things happen. And really, what determines when a multinational store issues a failed product? The fact that the literati don't like it? That it gets discounted? I saw dude on the street wearing the Gough's today, and they looked really great on him. I'm yet to encounter a guy wearing anything like SDA, Cane, Samurai, and I live in Boston, not hicksville USA.

So something failed, so what? It becomes everybodys opportunity to say, "look, someone did something wrong, let me point out what went wrong"

[dasman989]

Yeah, cuts not that great, but the denim is good stuff. I actually just discovered they had coin pockets. It was a revelation. And they were selvage as well. Odd.

Anyways, I like them, they're breaking in nicely, and I didn't find any sand in any of my pockets?

Most repro jeans have selvage coin pockets. Usually you have to look inside the pocket though, because the selvage line is folded over once.

[diewhitegirls]

To those that thought i was being harsh, i warned you in the first line of my post...

Like Kelvin said, this was the outcome of a multi-million dollar business' marketing team on a huge budget that turned out to a bit of a flop; especially considering they're now marked down to under $40 and they still have them in full size runs everywhere.

I was just having some fun and making a few observations.. nothing to get worked up over.

If you're in the retail world and you truly believe that this selvege line (which as I've said, they've been doing for a long time) is a "flop", you must not grasp how multi-national corporations work. When items are priced at a huge chain like Gap, or Abercrombie, etc., everything is priced to counterbalance clearance items. Not to mention the fact that almost every single item that you will ever see on clearance will STILL be showing a profit for the company, due to the low cost of production/labor.

Basically, you're taking a boutique mindset to a corporation that could buy and sell every small retailer in America. It doesn't work the same way.

[kiya]

If you're in the retail world and you truly believe that this selvege line (which as I've said, they've been doing for a long time) is a "flop", you must not grasp how multi-national corporations work. When items are priced at a huge chain like Gap, or Abercrombie, etc., everything is priced to counterbalance clearance items. Not to mention the fact that almost every single item that you will ever see on clearance will STILL be showing a profit for the company, due to the low cost of production/labor.

Basically, you're taking a boutique mindset to a corporation that could buy and sell every small retailer in America. It doesn't work the same way.

I understand how the corporate retail system works, i did consulting before starting my small boutique stores.

May i ask, do you have experience in the corporate retail field?

The reason i refer to the Gap's selvedge line as a "flop" is because that is how my two colleagues that are employed by the Gap's corporate office refer to the line as. The jeans did not perform as expected, hence them being available at such a low cost in full size runs at stores all around the country.

[diewhitegirls]

I understand how the corporate retail system works, i did consulting before starting my small boutique stores.

May i ask, do you have experience in the corporate retail field?

I was a whore for the flagship Abercrombie store. We learned entirely too much about the business there.

edit: I should probably also add that I spent a little over a year as a shill for Wilhemina. I've been around the block once or twice.

The reason i refer to the Gap's selvedge line as a "flop" is because that is how my two colleagues that are employed by the Gap's corporate office refer to the line as. The jeans did not perform as expected, hence them being available at such a low cost in full size runs at stores all around the country.

As much as I'd love to respect their opinion, it really doesn't reflect the views of the company. They still made money, just not as much as they might have hoped to. Hell, I remember getting clothing at Abercrombie (new items, mind you) that came with clearance pricing, because they knew it wouldn't sell at "normal" price. So, the few people that bought it at the "normal" price actually boosted the numbers. Is this indicative of what happened with the Gap selvege? No, of course not. But if I know anything about the corporate retail world, the prices would not fall through the roof as drastically as these did unless they planned on selling them at a much lower price point. Hence, the term "flop" is a misnomer by your colleagues.

[zelah]

the goughs are nicer than the ones you've 'critiqued'

[BTT]

the goughs are nicer than the ones you've 'critiqued'

so they have two different models of "raw denim"....I went to go check the Gap store the other day and saw one selvedge "raw denim" but does anybody got pics of both of them? How much quality change can be from a Gap collection line?

[zelah]

so they have two different models of "raw denim"....I went to go check the Gap store the other day and saw one selvedge "raw denim" but does anybody got pics of both of them? How much quality change can be from a Gap collection line?

they have atleast 3 models. "straight fit", gough, morrison. all different

[cultpop 0217]

shit. are people really coming to the aid and defense of the gap? i tried on the gough and they definately fall under the "shapeless" catagory in my book. i admit the gap has been doing better than in the past but trying to pass off terms like "left hand twill" and "selvedge" to the mall shopping masses was bound to fall on deaf ears. kudos to those of you who bought the hype.

and if you picked these up at the massive discount and you dig them: more power to you. lets see some evo pics soon.

also, when an entire run of a certain item goes on 75% discount almost immediatly it is either "a flop" or part of some kind of insideous marketing maneuver (see uno x3's post).

[LA Guy]

The original intect of selvedge was to prevent the material from unravelling. I've never seen a pair of completed jeans unravel, but I've certainly seen pieces of projectile loomed denim unravel. I've pulled out a few waft threads myself.

As for the GAP, it has, imho, rebranded itself quite well, after a number of "lost years", and the premium "Red" and selvedge denim lines are a good part of this rebranding. It's price on the NYSE has definitely shown steady improvements over the last 2 quarters, after an (expected) decline from the initial bit of rebranding. Certainly, even their premium products are not meant to appeal to people posting on a fashion forum, nor is the fit of their jeans. I gather that the average waist size here is about a 32 or so (no hating, I have a 30 waist myself.) However, the average American man has a size 36 waist, and a belly and body to match. And he doesn't like tight anything... In fact, what is considered "normal" fit here (and on Styleforum, though to a lesser degree) is considered really tight by your average American. I've taken a good look at the Goughs. I'd say that they don't hold a candle to a pair of Sugarcanes, or 5EPs, or Kicking Mules, or even Nudies and Acnes and APCs. However, at the

As for the selvedge jeans being a "bust", I don't think that any of us have enough info to really say one way or the other. GAP and other mass market retailers (and especially vertically integrated companies like GAP, H&M and Zara) rely on volume sales and rapid inventory turnover, and we just don't know what GAP calculated the sell through at retail, at first, second, and third mark down was going to be. Could be that if they just moved 30% at retail, they were going to consider this a success. I pulled that number out of a hat. I simply don't have access to enough information to make a decent assessment of the performance of their selvedge jeans. Could be that they meant the jean to be a loss leader to begin with, and if they sold enough units of other products X,Y,Z, they would (and did) spray the Champagne.

[son2silver]

so they have two different models of "raw denim"....I went to go check the Gap store the other day and saw one selvedge "raw denim" but does anybody got pics of both of them? How much quality change can be from a Gap collection line?

Yes, if you do more research on different GAP selvedge jeans this season (simply by reading the dedicated thread on this board), you'll know that the denim used in those models are remarkably different from one another.

The "Gough" jeans are made of fairly impressive, sturdy denim (for the price, that is), and the quality has been compared to non-selvedge Nudies denim. It seems to me that kiya got his hands on 1 of the other 2 model, the "straight selvedge", which is made of very lightweight material.

[sexualharrasmentpanda]

shit. are people really coming to the aid and defense of the gap? i tried on the gough and they definately fall under the "shapeless" catagory in my book. i admit the gap has been doing better than in the past but trying to pass off terms like "left hand twill" and "selvedge" to the mall shopping masses was bound to fall on deaf ears. kudos to those of you who bought the hype.

and if you picked these up at the massive discount and you dig them: more power to you. lets see some evo pics soon.

also, when an entire run of a certain item goes on 75% discount almost immediatly it is either "a flop" or part of some kind of insideous marketing maneuver (see uno x3's post).

i think the fit is good, until the knee...then it's just horrible. above the knee is good though

[BTT]

Yes, if you do more research on different GAP selvedge jeans this season (simply by reading the dedicated thread on this board), you'll know that the denim used in those models are remarkably different from one another.

The "Gough" jeans are made of fairly impressive, sturdy denim (for the price, that is), and the quality has been compared to non-selvedge Nudies denim. It seems to me that kiya got his hands on 1 of the other 2 model, the "straight selvedge", which is made of very lightweight material.

Why would I do research on jeans that I would never buy? and I'm guessing you own a pair of Goughs? I saw them once at the Gap store, didn't seem as nice as you are describing them...

[RustyRyan]

What's the fit like on the gap Red jeans?