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keri

By keri
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keri

keri

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a partial quote:

I don't have extensive knowledge...

dye properties:

Adding dips is just increasing the concentration of indigo on the yarn, so you're completely correct that it gets to a point of diminishing returns. I think the general concensus is that 6 dips gets a a pretty good quality denim and 16 dips gets you to a point whereby the indigo is actually around 30% of the yarn weight - ie very dark indeed.

As you have surmised, there will be many variables involved, so not every dye vat will ever achieve the same performance. So perhaps what can be achieved in 16 dips by some, is achieved in 20+ dips by others. For instance, the differences between a modern slasher dye set up and an artisan rope dyeing are so great that it would be perfectly reasonable to expect there to be significant variation.

If some marketing claims have been exaggerated then I guess it wouldn't be the first or last time in the world of fashion. After all, aren't all the shuttle looms in Japan supposed to have been bought off Levi's in the 80s?

Ultimately, most people don't get hung up on the dip count & just judge the denim on it's appearance, performance and if they represent value for money for their spending power.

Vinegar doesn't set indigo. That's a misconception that springs from dyeing animal fibres (wools & silk) using acid dyes - where salt & vinegar have been traditionally used.

Indigo is an alkaline dye and in the case of denim, the fibre is cellulose rather than of animal origin. Different types of dye and dyeing methods.

Originally Posted by sneakeraddict

Yeah, but I cant believe in 100 + years of jeans making no one has marketed a 'stay blue' jeans? (that we know of)

They have. You can get coloured jeans (not just blue, but all colours) in a type of denim regularly known as 'bull denim'. It's just fabric woven in classic denim weave (typically 3x1 RH twill), where the warp is coloured by a non-indigo dye. Some of these are designed to fade a bit, usually with a little encouragement from enzymes & stonewashing - but nothing like true indigo denim.

Otherwise, you can just buy jeans made from piece dyed or garment dyed cotton twill. Many companies make them. You get one solid colour that doesn't crock like indigo.

It's worth remembering that indigo, whether natural or synthetic is extremely colourfast - to light. If you look at old tapestries, carpets and costumes, indigo is often the colour that has outlasted all others. The actual colour doesn't fade so much as rub off.

So the challenge was to produce a dark blue dye that didn't rub off.

Indanthrene blue was introduced at the turn of the 20th century and shared indigo's talent at having very good light fastness and the ability to dye cotton well. The difference was that Indanthrene didn't suffer the easy crocking that is a 'fault' of indigo.

There's speculation that dyes like Indanthrene would have killed off indigo if it wasn't for the popularity of jeans in fashion.

Not poisonous. Has been traditionally used as medicine, antiseptic, skin & hair colourings, tattoo 'ink'.

It doesn't mean to say that you should eat a kilo of the stuff.

The Smurf's were a pretty healthy bunch too.

"is the color difference between the jomons and the sorahikos based on the difference between natural and synthetic, or is it based in the number of times the jomon's strands were dipped, or both???"

That would be narrowing the cause of colour difference down to 2 possibilities (synth v natural and/or dip count). But there are far more variables than that and each will have a bearing on colour. You would have to assume both jeans had the same:

cotton

pre-dyeing preparation of cotton

same spinning

same reducing agent in vat

same PH in vat

same dip time

same yarn volume and circulation in vat

same vat

same oxidation time and climate

same finishing methods

etc.

That's not taking into account other stuff they may throw into the vat. (eg Madder in a natural vat).

There's a very high chance that none of those are the same for the two denims in question.

"I have heard indigo saturation in denim quanitified by both "dips" as well as "percent concentration", does concentration refer to the concentration of the indgo IN the yarn or the conentration of indigo in the dye the yarn is dipped into"

Counting the number of dips is a common way to describe the amount of indigo one can expect on denim. More dips = darker denim. Measuring the actual amount of indigo on denim would be to determine the weight of indigo as a percentage of the weight of yarn. Each dip will roughly add a couple of percent of indigo per weight of yarn.

fabric properties:

in reference to LHT v RHT

Summary - yes, it's softer, but only if you're judging like-for-like denims. Otherwise not all left hand denims are softer than RH denims.
"the weave of the fabric, where the fabric is produced etc. etc. don't mean a thing on a suit unless it it makes the suit look better on you"

The fabric and the stitching are both of enormous significance in tailoring. Whether you go to a tailor and pick your own fabric out or whether you trust a designer brand like Armani to pick out the fabric for you, it's just as important, if not more so, as the denim on jeans.

And what looks better on you is highly subjective , as your two examples of Armani & Versace illustrate. They are almost polar opposites. Same goes for jeans. It's a broad church with room for many tastes and interests.

cleaning:

Save your tears. Wash them with a mild soap, and do as little scrubbing as possible. Or take them to the dry cleaners.
Just buy the mildest you can. Most health food shops will sell pure vegetable soap (sometimes called Castille soap - which is what Bronner's is).

Otherwise, buy handwash detergent or the stuff they market for washing baby clothes in. Avoid anything that promises to make your wash 'whiter than white' etc, as they will contain phosphates, bleaches etc.

"I wonder what the DENIM TREATMENT does.

No rinse after the treatment? Is it a starch?"

Antibacterial.

assorted knowledge and wisdom:

Originally Posted by red

welcome back jesus. while your here, can you explain to me why the sc40300 cost 300 dollars, and the sc40105 only cost 200? is it just the bag? same goes with the two hawaiis.

Totally different fabrics. The cheaper are plain weave. The more expensive ones are twill. Also the 40300 may be constructed differently (I can't recall right now, but there prices seem to reflect the 40400s), like the SC40400 Hawaii's - which are hand felled, rather than made using felling machines. It's a much, much more laborious process.

And then the bag & scarf will add to the retail price

"will wearing dry denim just dye the entire wallet a gross blue color and kill the leather?"

It will certainly turn the leather blue, but whether it's gross or not is subjective. I don't mind my RM wallet being stained blue at all.

The leather is dead already.

" in lay man's terms is there any premium natural indigo dyed jeans deserve over synthetic indigo dyed?"

Where natural indigo has it's value is it's historical heritage. You're directly connected with probably the most important dye ever discovered, with a deep and widespread history from ancient Egypt to the present day. Natural indigo will have graced Viking raiders to Napoleon's armies, Persian rugs to Medievel tapestries, the Emperors' of China to the blue collar (term derived from indigo) workers that made Levi Strauss his fortune. So if you have an historical and/or botanical interest in plant derived indigo, then the premium may be worth it.

That's not to say that synthetic indigo doesn't have a fascinating history of it's own - albeit much, much shorter. And of course there are plenty of jeans that use fantastic quality, synthetic dyed denim.

Again, many brands may use their natural indigo jeans as their flagship styles - so they make take extra care over them - again adding perceived value.

But if you're not interested in indigo's provenance, then I'm not convinced that natural indigo will have necessarily a better colour or fade better than synthetic indigo. (the extra care taken to produce some natural indigo denim notwithstanding).

This is only a small portion of the knowledge passed on to us by ringring, but I thought I'd let someone else add.

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JesseJB

JesseJB

Posted
Posted

Someday he will show his face and the world will be stunned. Does he walk among us daily? Of course he does. But RingRing is no man. Oh no. RingRing is the sum of every SFers denim knowledge molded into one being. It is that very denim spirit in each one of us that gives RingRing his power. If we should ever lose that passion for denim, well, the world would explode.

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tweeds

tweeds

Posted
Posted

the monty python troupe has something to say on the subject, i think

FOLLOWERS:

Oh! Oh! Ohh! Oh! Ah! Oh!

ARTHUR:

He has given us a sign!

17_shoe.jpg

FOLLOWER:

Oh!

SHOE FOLLOWER:

He has given us... His shoe!

ARTHUR:

The shoe is the sign. Let us follow His example.

SPIKE:

What?

ARTHUR:

Let us, like Him, hold up one shoe and let the other be upon our foot, for this is His sign, that all who follow Him shall do likewise.

EDDIE:

Yes.

SHOE FOLLOWER:

No, no, no. The shoe is...

YOUTH:

No.

SHOE FOLLOWER:

...a sign that we must gather shoes together in abundance.

GIRL:

Cast off...

SPIKE:

Aye. What?

GIRL:

...the shoes! Follow the Gourd!

SHOE FOLLOWER:

No! Let us gather shoes together!

FRANK:

Yes.

SHOE FOLLOWER:

Let me!

ELSIE:

Oh, get off!

YOUTH:

No, no! It is a sign that, like Him, we must think not of the things of the body, but of the face and head!

SHOE FOLLOWER:

Give me your shoe!

YOUTH:

Get off!

GIRL:

Follow the Gourd! The Holy Gourd of Jerusalem!

FOLLOWER:

The Gourd!

HARRY:

Hold up the sandal, as He has commanded us!

ARTHUR:

It is a shoe! It is a shoe!

HARRY:

It's a sandal!

ARTHUR:

No, it isn't!

GIRL:

Cast it away!

ARTHUR:

Put it on!

YOUTH:

And clear off!

SHOE FOLLOWER:

Take the shoes and follow Him!

GIRL:

Come,...

FRANK:

Yes!

GIRL:

...all ye who call yourself Gourdenes!

SPIKE:

Stop! Stop! Stop, I say! Stop! Let us-- let us pray. Yea, He cometh to us, like the seed to the grain.

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