Denim Experts topic: Indigo dye / Plain old blue dye

[sneakeraddict]

I think I have this correct:

Indigo dye, whether synthetic or natural has some sort of magic composition so that it basically sits on top of the fabric rather than bonding with it, hence over time all indgo dye products fade greatly due to dye rubbing off.

Ok so - is there a 'non' indigo dark blue dye that can be used on jeans?

I hope I explained that well.

What I am asking is, in the same way that your red t shirt pretty much stays red forever (obviously with some fading), are there any jeans that would basically look 'raw' forever by not using indigo dye, but dark blue dye?

Is this a stupid question?

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[mizanation]

no, it's a good question.

is it possible to make a sythetic indigo color dye that is super-fade resistant? is this what sulpher topping/bottoming is?

http://mizanation.blogspot.com

[obsessis]

yeah, that's actually an interesting question.

[spiveyt2]

Quote:

no, it's a good question.

is it possible to make a sythetic indigo color dye that is super-fade resistant? is this what sulpher topping/bottoming is?

--- Original message by mizanation on Jun 9, 2006 08:20 AM

From what I remember ring^2 saying about sulphur use is tat it makes the color look darker without needing to dip it a whole bunch of times, but it does not make it so that indigo won't fade. Is that about right?

[mizanation]

Quote:

Quote:

no, it's a good question.

is it possible to make a sythetic indigo color dye that is super-fade resistant? is this what sulpher topping/bottoming is?

--- Original message by mizanation on Jun 9, 2006 08:20 AM

From what I remember ring^2 saying about sulphur use is tat it makes the color look darker without needing to dip it a whole bunch of times, but it does not make it so that indigo won't fade. Is that about right?

--- Original message by spiveyt2 on Jun 9, 2006 07:53 PM

yeah, that right...

http://mizanation.blogspot.com

[horriblyjollyjinx]

sulphur is a black dye, so you probably don't want blue jeans with a sulphur bottom since it means they contain less indigo and will not fade as very well because of that, and because sulphur wont fade the same way as indigo.

fullcount 1310

notice how it isn't jet black?

what you guys were thinking about is resin. jeans are coated with resin to retain their color. unfortunately it doesn't look exatly the same as raw denim, but it's pretty close and still looks good. resin'd http://www.rakuten.co.jp/hinoya/141935/219455/326606/

http://repeattofade.blogspot.com/

Edited by horriblyjollyjinx on Jun 10, 2006 at 12:16 PM

[Yet Fung]

Doesn't resin also get used for the baked in creases? I wonder how many washes it would take to get the resin out? Does anyone know?

[ringring]

no, it's a good question.

is it possible to make a sythetic indigo color dye that is super-fade resistant? is this what sulpher topping/bottoming is?

http://mizanation.blogspot.com

It's worth remembering that indigo, whether natural or synthetic is extremely colourfast - to light. If you look at old tapestries, carpets and costumes, indigo is often the colour that has outlasted all others. The actual colour doesn't fade so much as rub off.

So the challenge was to produce a dark blue dye that didn't rub off.

Indanthrene blue was introduced at the turn of the 20th century and shared indigo's talent at having very good light fastness and the ability to dye cotton well. The difference was that Indanthrene didn't suffer the easy crocking that is a 'fault' of indigo.

There's speculation that dyes like Indanthrene would have killed off indigo if it wasn't for the popularity of jeans in fashion.

[red]

welcome back jesus. while your here, can you explain to me why the sc40300 cost 300 dollars, and the sc40105 only cost 200? is it just the bag? same goes with the two hawaiis.

[6MT]

well, what about dry clean your jeans, a nd perhaps you could try to purchase natural indigo, as they fade into lighter shade of blue instead of fade into a white-ish blue.

[mizanation]

It's worth remembering that indigo, whether natural or synthetic is extremely colourfast - to light. If you look at old tapestries, carpets and costumes, indigo is often the colour that has outlasted all others. The actual colour doesn't fade so much as rub off.

So the challenge was to produce a dark blue dye that didn't rub off.

Indanthrene blue was introduced at the turn of the 20th century and shared indigo's talent at having very good light fastness and the ability to dye cotton well. The difference was that Indanthrene didn't suffer the easy crocking that is a 'fault' of indigo.

There's speculation that dyes like Indanthrene would have killed off indigo if it wasn't for the popularity of jeans in fashion.

hey, good to see you, ringring. i see that indanthrene blue is also used as a food coloring and a pigment for paints and enamels as well as a fabric dye.

i guess indigo for bath towels wouldn't work too well, huh? you'd end up looking like a smurf after every shower!

[sneakeraddict]

Yeah, but I cant believe in 100 + years of jeans making no one has marketed a 'stay blue' jeans? (that we know of)

Basically that was my original question

[dongeri]

Thinking out loud, this could be because in the early 1900's, when denim was workwear, miners wanted a quality _fabric_ and the indigo color fading problem wasn't really a concern for them. As bluejeans became the rebel symbol of the 50's and 60's people didn't mind the fading because it added to the whole rebel "theme". As jeans went into the 70's, people were doing painting, stitching and god knows what to their jeans, and as the 80's came there certainly wasn't a problem with fading indigo as most people walked around in acidwashed denim. Enter the 90's and pre-worn jeans became popular.

And now, everyone WANT'S their indigo to fade so we can make our own fades.

[sneakeraddict]

yeah but I am surprised even someone like Gucci or whatever havent made a pair that would stay dark, in keeping with a particular 'designer' aesthetic

[cheapmuthafukr]

well... if they stay dark you wont have to buy another pair once they fade.

[sneakeraddict]

dont think thats the reason to be honest.

Navy wool trousers always stay the same colour.

Maybe no one ever thought of it?

[Lars]

welcome back jesus. while your here, can you explain to me why the sc40300 cost 300 dollars, and the sc40105 only cost 200? is it just the bag? same goes with the two hawaiis.

I`m also very curious about this. I tried in the "faded okinawas/hawaiis" thread, but failed. I hope to learn it someday though..

[ringring]

Thinking out loud, this could be because in the early 1900's, when denim was workwear, miners wanted a quality _fabric_ and the indigo color fading problem wasn't really a concern for them. As bluejeans became the rebel symbol of the 50's and 60's people didn't mind the fading because it added to the whole rebel "theme". As jeans went into the 70's, people were doing painting, stitching and god knows what to their jeans, and as the 80's came there certainly wasn't a problem with fading indigo as most people walked around in acidwashed denim. Enter the 90's and pre-worn jeans became popular.

And now, everyone WANT'S their indigo to fade so we can make our own fades.

I don't think that up until the early part of the 20th century that there was not much choice available. If you needed a light fast, dark blue dye that would dye cotton then until the mass adoption of synthetic dyes, indigo was best available.

Yeah, but I cant believe in 100 + years of jeans making no one has marketed a 'stay blue' jeans? (that we know of)

They have. You can get coloured jeans (not just blue, but all colours) in a type of denim regularly known as 'bull denim'. It's just fabric woven in classic denim weave (typically 3x1 RH twill), where the warp is coloured by a non-indigo dye. Some of these are designed to fade a bit, usually with a little encouragement from enzymes & stonewashing - but nothing like true indigo denim.

Otherwise, you can just buy jeans made from piece dyed or garment dyed cotton twill. Many companies make them. You get one solid colour that doesn't crock like indigo.

[ringring]

welcome back jesus. while your here, can you explain to me why the sc40300 cost 300 dollars, and the sc40105 only cost 200? is it just the bag? same goes with the two hawaiis.

Totally different fabrics. The cheaper are plain weave. The more expensive ones are twill. Also the 40300 may be constructed differently (I can't recall right now, but there prices seem to reflect the 40400s), like the SC40400 Hawaii's - which are hand felled, rather than made using felling machines. It's a much, much more laborious process.

And then the bag & scarf will add to the retail price.

[mizanation]

yeah, i was a little disappointed that BIG only had the "basic" versions of the okinawa and the hawaii.

btw, i just read that indanthrene dying is very expensive. however, that wouldn't be too much of a factor in premium jeans.

now that i think about it, i don't know if i would buy a jean that didn't fade...

[6MT]

but essentially this question is like asking " is there a car that will never break down and the paint never chip"

[sneakeraddict]

No that is grossly misintepreting my original question.

I asked if there were jeans that stayed dark blue 'forever', in the same way that a red t shirt will (pretty much) stay the same colour for its lifespan.

[Yet Fung]

I've seen a pair of overdyed costello's that were quite old but hadn't faded a bit. They didn't look that great... more like a 5-pocket khaki.

[Ahlvahroe]

I remember reading once that someone was trying to genetically modify blue cotton for use in jeans production. I was wondering if anything ever became of this?

[TaylorMADE]

Ok I'm going to give this a try with a poor response.. feel free to chime in with some extra knowledge...

Indigo dye is a dye that is applied through the process of vat dyeing. Because of the chemical structure of vat dyes, the dye itself must be reduced in order to be applied to the fabric as there is no natural affinity fo indigo dye to cotton by itself. The dyes themself are relativly color fast but this is only AFTER the the poorly adhered dye molecules are removed. This is the effect that you see with nicer denims after long periods of wear.

Now to create a denim that is more resistant to wear, you would either have to use a different type of dye such as a direct tye or possible an azo dye... but im not sure how this would effect the feel of the denim... as said before you could coat the denim with some sort of resin to retain the dye, however that would make the fabric EXTREMELY stiff and also would wash out after time... so in a long answer, I dont believe its possible to create this type of denim using indigo dye... but you can correct me if im wrong

[TaylorMADE]

bump to the top to get some responses?

[Whodinihimself]

Ok I'm going to give this a try with a poor response.. feel free to chime in with some extra knowledge...

Indigo dye is a dye that is applied through the process of vat dyeing. Because of the chemical structure of vat dyes, the dye itself must be reduced in order to be applied to the fabric as there is no natural affinity fo indigo dye to cotton by itself. The dyes themself are relativly color fast but this is only AFTER the the poorly adhered dye molecules are removed. This is the effect that you see with nicer denims after long periods of wear.

Now to create a denim that is more resistant to wear, you would either have to use a different type of dye such as a direct tye or possible an azo dye... but im not sure how this would effect the feel of the denim... as said before you could coat the denim with some sort of resin to retain the dye, however that would make the fabric EXTREMELY stiff and also would wash out after time... so in a long answer, I dont believe its possible to create this type of denim using indigo dye... but you can correct me if im wrong

I've got those resin coated Levis mentioned earlier..and youre right..when they first arrived they were extremely stiff...like wearing cardboard...but a handful of soaks and daily wear softened them up somewhat...although theyre still quite rigid. Its impossible for any garment to retain its colour forever, but these do seem pretty resistant to fading...they hardly bled at all during the soaks.........I'm guessing that the resin gets baked right into the denim or gets absorbed deep into the fabric. You cant really feel it..or see it...but you know its in there..