If, as some have said, there is not difference between selvage and non-selvage denim...

[damnIam]

when it comes to high end jeans, then why is selvage so much more expensive in so many cases. For example, the Nudies nonselvage vs Nudies selvage. Is there a huge difference in or is it because selvage is hot right now? I ask because I see so many nice jeans on this site that are not selvage.

Edited by damnIam on May 4, 2006 at 05:32 AM

Edited by damnIam on May 4, 2006 at 05:33 AM

[Guest Berget__]

I think that in this case Nudies selvage denim is a lot better than nudies non-selvage denim. But there is certainly non-selvage denim that has the same or even better quality than nudies selvage denim.

I aint gotta get money man money get me

[denimdestroyedmylife]

it costs more to make selvage denim, therefore it is more expensive.

[ringring]

Selvedge denim is roughly half the width of regular 'air-jet' denim, so you consume twice the yardage when making selvedge jeans.

Selvedge denim (shuttle) looms also operate far slower than air-jet looms and are less common. So the yardage produced per hour is less.

[ringring]

PS - selvedge denim, just like non-selvedge denim comes in many varieties and quality varies a lot. Not all is good.

PPS - to put the original statement into context, the ingredients of denim (yarn, dye, dyeing methods, finishing) are more important to the look and quality of a denim than the loom itself. So for mass produced denim (ie coming from mills that are producing tens of thousands+ of yards), the difference between selvedge and non-selvedge denim when using the same ingredients, is minimal.

Edited by ringring on May 4, 2006 at 09:44 AM

[damnIam]

Quote:

PS - selvedge denim, just like non-selvedge denim comes in many varieties and quality varies a lot. Not all is good.

PPS - to put the original statement into context, the ingredients of denim (yarn, dye, dyeing methods, finishing) are more important to the look and quality of a denim than the loom itself. So for mass produced denim (ie coming from mills that are producing tens of thousands+), the difference between selvedge and non-selvedge denim when using the same ingredients, is minimal.

Edited by ringring on May 4, 2006 at 06:51 AM

--- Original message by ringring on May 4, 2006 06:46 AM

Ring Ring, you have answered my question. Thank you. So, it appears that it is possible to get nonselvage jeans that have the potential to look better than a pair of selvage jeans. That makes sense, because I have seen pics on this site of nonselvage jeans with amazing character.

Edited by damnIam on May 4, 2006 at 07:00 AM

[Landy]

i'm curious to see what ringring's denim collection looks like.

[ringring]

"it appears that it is possible to get nonselvage jeans that have the potential to look better than a pair of selvage jeans. "

Absolutely.

[SoloC]

However, I think the price tag made you worry about the quality of a jeans. Yes, you can get good result in non selvage. However, how can you tell by just looking at it in a store. You can tell the difference on cutting, style and materials by the feels of it. However, you don't know anything about the dying untill you put one into the washing machine. Also, people will think non-selvage mass producing denim vs selvage limiting producing denim....slow....Then people will tend to think that company will uses better quality materials on producing a selvage since it is not a mass produce product. As of the non-selvage people will think other wise. However, it may not be true. I saw a few 1XX fake Levis with selvage in SF haight St........I would rather spend my money on something else......Selvage = good not necessary but it is tempating to have that thought.

[cheapmuthafukr]

plus selvage doesnt mean that rivits and buttons wont pop off, stiching wont come loose, or really anything else. i feel its mainly a marketing ploy.

If you've lost your faith in superfuture, Oh the end won't be long

Because if it's gone for you then I too may lose it, And that would be wrong

I've tried so hard to keep myself from falling

Back into my bad old ways

And it chars my heart to always hear you calling

Calling for the good old days

Because there were no good old days

These are the good old days

[Geowu]

not to contradict what was already said here, but some companies (45rpm , PBJapan) advertise that they slow down even further the already slow selvage looms to get a looser weave with more uneven appearance, so I would say it must be desirable to have denim woven slower (e.g. as in 45rpm JOMONS or Pure Blue Japan XX003), otherwise why would they advertise it, and, especially on the case of 45rpm, it's only on the more expensive models. of course this must be a minimal difference, which doesn't go against the arguments you people gave above.

[mizanation]

one could go even further and weave their denim on a 4 or 8 harness hand loom. now that's sloooooow.

you'd probably get a half yard a day if you are lucky.

[Seething Tortoise]

Quote:

i'm curious to see what ringring's denim collection looks like.

--- Original message by Landy on May 4, 2006 06:59 AM

I'd laugh if he didn't have any.

[Geowu]

Quote: one could go even further and weave their denim on a 4 or 8 harness hand loom. now that's sloooooow.

I believe Yen Jeans makes a hand woven ultra-expensive model

[snugglepony]

great thread - great timing...

i met with a local designer yesterday to talk about doing a pair of custom jeans. he pulled out a box of denim card samples from his distributor and we started to go through them. they were marked with the mill name, fabric content, weight, and a few other random style numbers. the samples were cut with a pinking shears, and none of them showed a selvage, but we couldn't be sure which samples were from shuttle looms and which weren't. i found some really, really nice samples of a 14oz kaihara indigo denim. i assumed it was a selvage denim because it was super slubby, and had a very irregular weave. it was a very dark indigo (i scraped at a corner of the sample to test how it would wear/fade and got that telltale royal blue coming through).

took the samples home to browse a little more and looked more closely at those seemingly random numbers on the sample cards -- they were bolt widths, and none of the samples were under 55" wide, basically eliminating the possibility that they were shuttle-loomed denim with selvage.

i'd been really hoping to get a selvage pair of jeans made, but the quality of these samples made it pretty obvious to me that denim can be of an extraordinarily high quality and not be shuttle-loomed...

Edited by snugglepony on May 4, 2006 at 09:57 AM

[__3xL]

Guys what do you think of this denim ?

Edited by numero_uno_3xl on May 4, 2006 at 11:31 AM

I plan on making some lightweight summer shorts and/or jeans out of it It's about 60 years old

Edited by numero_uno_3xl on May 4, 2006 at 11:34 AM

[mizanation]

wow. 60 year old selvage denim. what a find. how did you get it? is there any more?

please make jeans out of it, not shorts.

wow.

[__3xL]

I got it from a little ole lady who was a friend to my grandmother . She saw my jean cuff one day when I went over to my grandmother's before she passed and mentioned she had some material she never used that has the same white line edge .

I didn't quite get what she was saying , but asked could I see . She gave it to me though and told me how old it was , what she had planned to do with it when she was my age etc etc ..

No more she gave me all she had . I MIGHT have enough to do jeans and shorts , but haven't even pulled it out my storage room til a few days ago while organizing .

I like the idea of shorts with a mild cuff , but yes jeans would be the first creation of course if I had to choose . Then again I do not like tight clothing , so it's not like they would be " superdenim sexy " jeans by any stretch form fitting slim and all ...

The material is VERY light , I am not denim pro so I couldn't guess the weight , but generally it's about 1/2 as heavy as " normal jeans " ..

If I have any scrap I want to do some selvage levi signs for my back pockets of whatever pair I choose like Warehouse has if I can .. Should be cool ..

>>> does anyone know what company used this denim possibly ? I am curious - mayeb I can do a numero-repro :-)

Edited by numero_uno_3xl on May 4, 2006 at 12:08 PM

[denimdestroyedmylife]

that's a good story! i hope you have enough to make a pair of jeans...

[Whodinihimself]

WOW!...thats the kind of story that makes my day....i hope you make a pair of jeans with them...

[Landy]

you can make some kick ass headbands with the scrap material!

[mauxhall]

Quote:

PS - selvedge denim, just like non-selvedge denim comes in many varieties and quality varies a lot. Not all is good.

PPS - to put the original statement into context, the ingredients of denim (yarn, dye, dyeing methods, finishing) are more important to the look and quality of a denim than the loom itself. So for mass produced denim (ie coming from mills that are producing tens of thousands+ of yards), the difference between selvedge and non-selvedge denim when using the same ingredients, is minimal.

Edited by ringring on May 4, 2006 at 09:44 AM

--- Original message by ringring on May 4, 2006 06:46 AM

ringring's point is well taken. considering yarn, dye, dyeing methods and finishing, and ignoring cut, cost and style, i would love to have the really educated vets weigh in on their top brands in terms of pure denim quality alone, breaking it into two categories for selvedge and non-selvedge (if it's not too much to ask )

Would it be Japanese denim exclusively? My feeling is that while style may be subjective, quality should be an objective truth...

and if this has been discussed/listed to death already...please forgive my newbie-ness, and get on with the search-button screaming!

Edited by mauxhall on May 4, 2006 at 04:37 PM

[denimdestroyedmylife]

quality is far from objective AND it is a vague term that has many facets of meaning (e.g. a denim can have various qualities)

do you mean durability? value?

[Guest]

Well, I said "ignoring...cost...", so I don't mean value. Durability I imagine would be an important part of the quality equation, but my criteria was "yarn, dye, dyeing methods and finishing" (ringring 5/4/06 6:46am). Based on all that...stuff, I asked if any vets in-the-know could enlighten me (us) as to their opinions on the highest quality brands in terms of, well, yarn, dye, dyeing methods and finishing.

But if denim destroyed your life, then you are obviously a veteran of denim warfare and know a lot more that I do. And if you say quality is a vague and multifaceted thing, far away from objectivity, then I guess it was a silly request from someone who still isn't sure what "slubby" feels like.

................

In hindsight (I stopped writing and started thinking for a few, which is what those dots mean), I think you're right that it's not possible to distill all brands of denim to something so simple as say, a 5 star rating system of "quality" fabric. We're addicted to this stuff because of its complexity, uniqueness, and even unpredictability. So in terms of denim...I suppose all things are subjective. If I can sip a bottle of $500 wine, but prefer the taste of the $30 bottle of wine right next to it (true story), then it's all just fucking taste. And there's no accounting for it.

alright i'm done. sorry, but thinkin bout denim gets me all up ons.

P.S. just ordered "Denim: From Cowboys to Catwalks, A History of the World's Most Legendary Fabric"...so I can edjamucate myself a bit.

[mauxhall]

Well, I said "ignoring...cost...", so I don't mean value. Durability I imagine would be an important part of the quality equation, but my criteria was "yarn, dye, dyeing methods and finishing" (ringring 5/4/06 6:46am). Based on all that...stuff, I asked if any vets in-the-know could enlighten me (us) as to their opinions on the highest quality brands in terms of, well, yarn, dye, dyeing methods and finishing.

But if denim destroyed your life, then you are obviously a veteran of denim warfare and know a lot more about the subject than I do. And if you say quality is a vague and multifaceted thing, far away from objectivity, then I guess it was a silly request from someone who still isn't sure what "slubby" feels like.

............................

In hindsight (I stopped writing and started thinking for a few, which is what those dots mean), I think you're right that it's not possible to distill all brands of denim to something so simple as say, a 5 star rating system of "quality" fabric. We're addicted to this stuff because of its complexity, uniqueness, and even unpredictability. So in terms of denim...I suppose all things are subjective. If I can sip a bottle of $500 wine, but prefer the taste of the $30 bottle of wine right next to it (true story), then it's all just fucking taste. And there's no accounting for it.

alright i'm done. sorry, but thinkin bout denim gets me all up ons.

P.S. just ordered "Denim: From Cowboys to Catwalks, A History of the World's Most Legendary Fabric"...so I can edjamucate myself a bit.

Edited by mauxhall on May 4, 2006 at 08:44 PM

[Geowu]

it's not completely objective, but you can still compare as to higher and lower quality, even with a certain degree of subjectiveness. e.g. the brand which saves no expense to do precisely what they think is the ideal denim, and the brand which is heavily influenced by cost and profit. maybe you could not say objectively if natural indigo is better than artificial indigo - although the former costs more and gives a distinct color, the latter is purer and gives better contrast -, but it is possible for you to say that more dips in indigo and more care in the process is better. it is fairly objective, also, to say that dual ringspun denim has a higher quality than open-end; that African and US cotton is normally considered of higher quality than others; that cotton which has grown for 1 entire year is longer in length than cotton which has grown for 3 months or half a year, and consequently better.

all this being said, I think your request for a comparison between different brands in those aspects is valid. I don't have enough knowledge to answer it adequately but lets try:

I know 45rpm, Fullcount, Pure Blue Japan all use top quality cotton and denim production.

Most Japanese brands discussed here should be more or less in the same level, but I don't know what cotton and production they use. (Denime, Samurai, The Flat Head, Warehouse, Studio D'Artisan, 5EP, Yen, Dope + Drakkar, Eternal, Rag & Bone, Evisu, Iron Heart, Burgus Plus, etc. etc.)

Sugarcane uses some pretty different dyeing methods and also their (50% Sugarmillet + 50% Cotton) blend. Top quality too.

I'll stop here, maybe someone else can continue to answer.

[6MT]

i dont care, i still love my selvedge, and i just bought a shit load of it ha ahahahaha

[denimdestroyedmylife]

interesting post, mauxhall. you may have noticed my posts are usually pretty short, so i can see why you, and others, sometimes struggle with my tone and POV. if you ever speak to me in person, you'll find that this reflects how i speak.

you are right, if we could arrive at an objective rating system for denim, [untenable, we agree, but this is hypothetical] we'd all have the same pair of jeans, if we could afford them. and one pair of them at that. but we know it is not so cut and dry.

Take Nudie Regular Ralfs. the RR Dry Selvage are supposed to be better QUALITY construction and superior denim than the graycasts, and i do believe this to be the case (though not from experience). however, some folk prefer the way the graycast fades. we have wandered into taste-land, you see. but let's forget about the subjectivity/objectivity business. how can we agree how fade QUALITY ranks against the QUALITY of the denim and the QUALITY of the construction?

Already we have different uses of the word Quality that muddies this discussion.

QUALITY of construction would seem to have to do with durability, but beyond that, labor comes into play in a strange way. Hand-felled seams take more time than overlock or chainstitching, but it could be argued that this is over-construction on a garment that most people don't intend to wear on horseback or pass down as an heirloom. USE would seem to factor in somewhere. QUALITY of construction for what intended use, we should ask.

but back to nudies, take the RRDS and the RRDS Veggie---the use of vegetable indigo in the latter does indicate an increase in the QUALITY of dye in the sense that it is pleasing to the eye to some. the chemical structure is identical and there is no effect on the durability of the fabric, that i know of. And here we are back at labor, too.

value also has different meanings. not just cost, but how something is held in one's esteem. I value natural indigo, but it is not a value in terms of cost. beauty of color is not a value in the jeans, but in ourselves that we perceive it there. a person also has values---honor is one. karl marx, genius that he was, tried to arrive at how a notion of value was reached. how can a cd be the same cost as a bento box, for example. he tried to simplify the matter by saying that it was one thing: labor. But even he realized that this was not a sufficient explanation...

anyway, i'm no philosopher, marxist, nor even a denim expert. i just happen to have a [probably unhealthy] fixation on the fabric, in particular as it applies to clothing, more specifically, those clothes that start at the waist and end at the ankle. i am learning, though, thanks to the good people on this board.

as far as my handle goes, it is just a play on john fahey's book, how bluegrass destroyed my life. it didn't destroy his life and i can't blame denim for destroying mine. it justs feels good to say that something you love has ruined you. isn't that the essence of romance? anyway, i am sorry to have taken away the mystery, but i thought i should address it since folks may actually think that i'm physically crippled because of some apocalyptic encounter with the blue stuff. i'm okay-ish.

good thing you ordered that book. if i could, i'd put them in the hands of every man, woman and child. and like, hermaphrodites, eunuchs, and um... dolphins. we'd all be having more intelligent discussions up in here. mr. trynka doesn't solve riddles, such as the much-debated origin of the word denim, but lays out its convuluted history for the reader to assess. simplifying is too simple, though simpletons dig it. i can relate.

this rating system we are talking about would be just that. simplifying. flattening. let's not, okay? let's let the wildness, uncertainty, indeterminacy, doubt, fear, pain, confusion, delight and wonder grow and tangle like the roots of the cotton plants from which our blue pants are made. naaameen?

i know i haven't added much to this conversation, only muddled things even more. poor

[mauxhall]

Quote:

it's not completely objective, but you can still compare as to higher and lower quality, even with a certain degree of subjectiveness. e.g. the brand which saves no expense to do precisely what they think is the ideal denim, and the brand which is heavily influenced by cost and profit. maybe you could not say objectively if natural indigo is better than artificial indigo - although the former costs more and gives a distinct color, the latter is purer and gives better contrast -, but it is possible for you to say that more dips in indigo and more care in the process is better. it is fairly objective, also, to say that dual ringspun denim has a higher quality than open-end; that African and US cotton is normally considered of higher quality than others; that cotton which has grown for 1 entire year is longer in length than cotton which has grown for 3 months or half a year, and consequently better.

all this being said, I think your request for a comparison between different brands in those aspects is valid. I don't have enough knowledge to answer it adequately but lets try:

I know 45rpm, Fullcount, Pure Blue Japan all use top quality cotton and denim production.

Most Japanese brands discussed here should be more or less in the same level, but I don't know what cotton and production they use. (Denime, Samurai, The Flat Head, Warehouse, Studio D'Artisan, 5EP, Yen, Dope + Drakkar, Eternal, Rag & Bone, Evisu, Iron Heart, Burgus Plus, etc. etc.)

Sugarcane uses some pretty different dyeing methods and also their (50% Sugarmillet + 50% Cotton) blend. Top quality too.

I'll stop here, maybe someone else can continue to answer.

--- Original message by Geowu on May 4, 2006 09:49 PM

thanks for that Geowu! All told, there's A LOT to learn, and that's what i'm finding most frustrating. It's one thing to read about lefthand and righthand and dual ringspun and etc etc; it's another thing entirely to actually see it all and learn the difference. Since joining this "cult" (and i mean that in the best possible way!), i've been really shocked as to how little so many of the salespeople know about the stuff their trying to get me to buy. A manager at the Rogan store was finally able to really demonstrate and explain to me what selvedge was. I wish there was a big ol' glossary book on denim that had built-in swatches that you could touch. Oh well, guess it just takes time...I just hate feeling ignorant.

[denimdestroyedmylife]

scratch and sniff denim book----i like it.

this is the scent of a 10-month no-wash selvage denim worn by an incontinent vicar whilst on sabatical in manila. scratch, scratch, sniff!

this is a washed projectile-loomed skinny tapered denim worn by an aging female model with a costly cocaine habit. scratch, scratch...

this is a 100-year-old levi worn by a miner in nevada...

Edited by denimdestroyedmylife on May 4, 2006 at 10:36 PM