Ethical manufacturing and production

[dralfonzo]

Was watching this short documentary the other day for uni about cheap labour and garment production in India. It follows the footprint left by large swedish high street chains (such as H&M) but this also applies to many many high street and 'disposable fashion' companies around the world.

Underpaid workers, very poor working conditions, use of chemicals banned by many more 'developed' countries without the access to protective clothing. I think this is informative and an important thing for people to be aware of. It's not good enough to say that you're not aware or it does not concern you because you as a consumer are completely interlinked with the industry and the people who produce your clothes.

This also should make people contemplate the 'true value' of a garment. If you are buying a technical piece of outerwear for $30, you should question who is suffering because of it. It is also not valid argument to say that workers in these less developed countries can survive on these tiny wages as the cost of living is less - many cannot afford food on their tiny wages.

Obviously this is not the case all over. There are many factories in India, Bangladesh, China etc that have good working conditions and pay for workers, but they are unfortunately hugely outnumbered by the factories who ignore their workers rights.

WE SHOP, WHO PAYS;

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-3076138835044484743#

CHINA BLUE TRAILER (jeans)

Hopefully this is some food for thought, would like to hear other peoples opinions on this.

[geneticdrifter]

nice links. Saw a piece similar involving sweatshops in LA. do you think it is possible to move away from this type of production and still keep prices low?

i see this problem as window into the downside of capitalism. worker exploitation. Until we stop consuming more than we save, i think we will lust for cheap, and therefore mass produced, goods. we need a return to quality, not a focus on ever increasing sales.

[rnrswitch]

I will watch these when I am not on the boss's dime. Thanks for the post and I am happy that there are conscious consumers out there. I don't act with my feet (like I should), but I would like to think that my cash makes up for my inaction.

I completely get swept up sometimes when buying stuff and forget to think. Like I bought my son some $20 selvedge jeans from H&M and didn't even think about. I apply a standard to the clothes I buy for myself, but when it comes to my son it is really hard to pay $100 for jeans, when he will be growing out of them so fast. Its good that I found out that Pointer brand makes childrens clothes.

[rnrswitch]

nice links. Saw a piece similar involving sweatshops in LA. do you think it is possible to move away from this type of production and still keep prices low?

i see this problem as window into the downside of capitalism. worker exploitation. Until we stop consuming more than we save, i think we will lust for cheap, and therefore mass produced, goods. we need a return to quality, not a focus on ever increasing sales.

I think it comes down to just consuming less. Do we need to have a different wardrobe for every day of the month? Do we need to update our wardrobe each season?

I lived with the same set of 8 button up shirts for like 3 years and Levis STFs (one pair every 9 months). I have only recently, like last 5 years, been buying way too much stuff.

We are trend driven and until we get past that not much is going to change. Something like 40 to 50% of our GDP is spent on marketing to get us to buy shit we don't need.

[geneticdrifter]

i agree SenorSwitch. But how do we convince a populace to consume less, when there is no direct correlation between price and quality, for the average consumer's clothes. STF's are a great value, but LEVI's has to be one of the worlds greatest brands; an exception.

I guess what i am trying to say is that, as long as wal-mart sells crap for $10 (think cheap tshirt) with a new print on it, people will buy. Part of my attraction to, japanese denim for instance, was the need for quality. (i'm still looking, ) So, methinks if you give people an alternative, (a $15 shirt that isn't crap and will last) people will buy. This is just the humanist in me. hoping for the best in people.

The marketing expenditure is huge, and quite possibly the more direct causality for the issue at hand. But, How do we draw the line between honest product promotion (bringing products to new markets and etc) and the "hype" plaguing us now? is this line definable, or enforceable in some way? any ideas... (by hype i mean, the pushing of new items. at its base for me is replication and not new invention. same problem in business, we reward risk taking not ingenuity.)

/wall-o-text off

[JackCrank]

It makes me happy to see this point brought up on a clothing site. I'm still new here and haven't really figured out how stuff goes but at the heart of this site is the idea of having stuff/clothes. What makes me happy, especially about this particular section of the forum is that people are buying "investment" pieces that are meant to last, made by skilled craftsmen, and are being repaired and taken care of rather than chucked.

I'm looking at what I'm wearing right now and other than my socks and undershirt, everything is made to last. Red Wing boots, Iron Heart Jeans, an Outlier hoodie made in NYC out of swiss Scholler fabric, a belt I made myself, a returned patagonia jacket that I got as a hand me down from a friend who worked at the store and got it 2nd hand.

Now if only I could find cheap, bulk socks made in the us...

[fobsquad]

i don't think we will ever begin to consume less. as long as their exists a barrier between our(my) society and the society of a 3rd world country perse, there will be an ethical misunderstanding of work.

one must remember that although we may consider the working conditions poor or underpaid, to them it may be just as normal as our jobs.

not to say that they aren't being treated unfairly, but it's all subjective.

it's a matter of perspective. and i'm also playing devil's advocate.

[dralfonzo]

do you think it is possible to move away from this type of production and still keep prices low?

I think so, but it is about consumers assuming that a tshirt 'should' be $10. I think you can still pay factory workers properly and have competitive prices, probably only making each garment slightly more expensive.

But it is the 'true value' which many people do not really grasp. For example I was in Luisa via Roma in Florence (they advertise on those banners sometimes >>) in January and saw a dress by a designer whos collection they stock. It was a simple cotton sateen dress, not much to it and had a made in china label inside, and was priced at about 550 euros. It can't have been more than about 15/20 euros to make. And this is only possible because of

1) the store selling it

2) the brand name

3) human vanity

Another of the main problems which is apparent if you watch the WE SHOP, WHO PAYS film is that you have one of the corperate people from H&M saying that they won't pay the factory more than however much for a skirt or a dress. This means that if the factory doesn't agree to their often stupidly low price, they loose out on the business to the thousands of other factories. It's all well and good H&M having a 'code of conduct' for their factories, but they just have that to cover their own ass. They know that the factories cannot comply whilst selling at the price H&M wants.

What you need is these high street companies making their customers aware that a $10 tshirt is not ethical, and educating them about who is making their clothes. Instead of threatening the factories with low prices, build up a good relationship with a factory and pay them well and fairly for the clothes. Make your customers proud to spend a bit extra on a tshirt, instead of throwing 'green' and 'organic' recyclable bags in their face to keep them happy.

[dralfonzo]

i don't think we will ever begin to consume less. as long as their exists a barrier between our(my) society and the society of a 3rd world country perse, there will be an ethical misunderstanding of work.

one must remember that although we may consider the working conditions poor or underpaid, to them it may be just as normal as our jobs.

not to say that they aren't being treated unfairly, but it's all subjective.

it's a matter of perspective. and i'm also playing devil's advocate.

thats all well and good but its an easy 'clean consciousness' argument for the most part. The evidence of unethical working conditions is very easy to find from a quick search, people just don't want to think about it.

[Hendodo]

well, i think that the human vanity thing definitely is a big part, dralfonzo.

like ive seen friends buy hoodies from american apparel for $35 when old navy is selling an almost identical hoodie for $10. until people start caring about the materials and not the brand, its gonna go on like this.. i think we had a thread that also talked about japanese highly priced denim and this problem..

[geneticdrifter]

@jack crank - bravo for your "simplicity" and for buying investment pieces. (you too rnrswitch)

@fob - devil's advocate's are good. i agree its all relative and the idea(s) being thrown around should not lead to the knee jerk reaction of raising all garment workers wages. if we could inform consumers the way dralfonzo prescribed and then create regional products to compete, i think it might have the affect of raising wages overall. Think if each country had a privately owned sock manufacturer. It sounds like communism, but not government run. So guys like me and jack could pay a bit more for american made socks. and reduce the demand on foreign made socks.

@dralfonzo - awesome point about the higher end shop. do you think if these "runway-type" clothes were cheaper that it would decrease the price of the average garment; (would their relative values change, or would the market still support "non-runway" items at their current price?) also, at what point are we paying for clothes as art? at what point does the designer deserve the majority of the money, if ever, instead of the manufacturer or retailer? (Devil'sAdvocate questions for anyone really)

as far as the education campaign, i agree with that. but i worry that you will have a rush to be "green", i.e. that brands will rush to label their items as free-trade, or ethically manufactured and increase prices exorbitantly so like they did with many "green" products. and like they do with some organic food/beauty products.

as far a price, i think you are right only if the production amounts stay the same. meaning a company that used to sell 1mil socks a year, must still sell 1million pairs at the new "fair-trade-price" to make the socks only slightly more expensive. i think most entrepreneurs are scared of that. i would be.

great thread.