Hand Made

[Charlie Delta]

Hand made/Made by hand/Assembled by hand, same thing...

It's something that brands put on their labels to increase the value of their products.

This is someting I often think about but I can never come up with a definite answer, so I thought I'd throw it out there.

When is something considered hand made?

There is no such thing as a sewing robot, not for clothes nor for shoes.

Technically every piece of clothing could be considered man-made, there are ways to make the process less time consuming, there are computerized machines that cut the fabric, machines that embroider anything that is programmed into them as soon as you put a piece of fabric under them, but in the end every single stitch is done by a person behind a sewing machine.

Items asociated with this kind of production are generally not considered handmade.

So when is something considered truly hand made?

If every step within the process is done by one and the same person, from cutting the pattern pieces to sewing on the label?

If all the sewing is actually done by hand (trust me this is not pleasant...)?

Does it have to do with the time it takes to produce something?

Where do people draw the line?

Or is "Hand Made" in the end a fairytale that enough people believe in (atleast in the apparel industry)?

[goldengloves]

So when is something considered truly hand made?

If every step within the process is done by one and the same person, from cutting the pattern pieces to sewing on the label?

If all the sewing is actually done by hand (trust me this is not pleasant...)?

Does if have to do with the time it takes to produce something?

Where do people draw the line?

Or is "Hand Made" in the end a fairytale that enough people believe in (atleast in the apparel industry)?

Good topic.

I think you answered it in the above statement.

It probably does have something to do with the time it takes and how many people are associated in making one piece.

But I do agree that even Nike shoes are some what 'handmade'. There is no getting around human involvement in pretty much every article of clothing/footwear.

Handmade might also have to do with someone's credentials? For example; The dude who makes Thom Browne is some small Atelier in NY and he makes all the clothing himself. (Thus limited numbers, painstakingly long hours into one garment, etc.)

[Charlie Delta]

...

though ideally it would be hand made by the artist... needle pulling thread..by hand

This is crazy but an idea that I'm very much in love with.

However, like you said a sewing machine is only a tool in the hands of a person, no sewing machine would start making clothes by itself. It's just been created to make the actual process of sewing less time consuming and friendlier for you hands...

But to me, buttons attached with a machine are by far not as nice as when their put on by hand.

Oh and GG, maybe Thom Browne started doing everything alone, but I find it difficult to believe that this is still the case. But that's another discussion.

[goldengloves]

Oh and GG, maybe Thom Browne started doing everything alone, but I find it difficult to believe that this is still the case. But that's another discussion.

Ah, I don't think he makes every single thing (by the way, i'm not talking Thom himself but some old dude in Brooklyn or something..haha), but I'm pretty sure he is linked to a lot of runway outfits. And even that would be exceptional for one or even two men!

All I know is that the quality is far superior to a lot of clothing out there but the price definitely is there to match. (Price to quality ratio is probably still a little exorbant..)

[kiya]

This is an issue i've thought about for a long while.

I only consider something truly "hand made" if there were no machines used in the construction of the materials used that make up the item.

For instance...

This is handmade, it was hand sewn with the cow tendon thread and a needle; the leather was cut and finished by hand, not by a table saw and electric sander:

http://www.selfedge.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68&products_id=225

It's near impossible to find footwear or leather craft items anymore that are made without the use of machinery, even the smallest companies are using electric table saws and electric sanders to finish their footwear and leather items.

[LA Guy]

Ah, I don't think he makes every single thing (by the way, i'm not talking Thom himself but some old dude in Brooklyn or something..haha), but I'm pretty sure he is linked to a lot of runway outfits. And even that would be exceptional for one or even two men!

All I know is that the quality is far superior to a lot of clothing out there but the price definitely is there to match. (Price to quality ratio is probably still a little exorbant..)

I think that you are talking about Martin Greenfield, one of the oldest quality manufacturers in the US. He actually makes the Black Fleece Line, which is not surprising seeing as the Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece MTM program is also through him. I believe that Thom Browne.'s mainline suits and sportsjackets are made by Zegna in Italy, however. The TB stuff that I have seen all indicates Italian origin.

[leroi]

Don't you think that would contradict the fact that every single Thom Browne suit says "Handmade in New York"? They're not made in Italy by Zegna, they're made in Brooklyn, most likely by Martin Greenfield, although Thom is of course tight-lipped about who exactly is making his suits (and unlike Band of Outsiders, there is no tag sewn on the inside of the inside pocket from Martin Greenfield, so I'm assuming either he asks for them not to include that or it's not made there).

[Fuuma]

Don't you think that would contradict the fact that every single Thom Browne suit says "Handmade in New York"? They're not made in Italy by Zegna, they're made in Brooklyn, most likely by Martin Greenfield, although Thom is of course tight-lipped about who exactly is making his suits (and unlike Band of Outsiders, there is no tag sewn on the inside of the inside pocket from Martin Greenfield, so I'm assuming either he asks for them not to include that or it's not made there).

According to recent rumors it is not Martin Greenfield although that was the general concensus. At least we do know for certain his shoes are made by Trickers (and sold with a heavy markup-although to be fair he offers slightly tweaked designs).

I've never seen a made in italy tag on Browne's suits.

[ddohnggo]

martin greenfield doesn't make thom browne's stuff. it's someone else, but i've promised not to divulge.

[readytoignite]

i see it as being the fashion equivalent of organic or homemade - more marketing than practical. though i believe the intent is to say that the piece is artisanally produced

[jeepster]

haha, funny that tg should post in here - she, or one of her shirts (that in fact does not exist) showed up in my dreams last night. weird story/funny story, i'll pm you if you want to hear it sometime.

i had the handmade vs. produced discussion with my mom, who used to work in the garment industry and managed a fabric store when she was younger, and she told me that the main concept behind making something by hand is to make it authentic to your taste - in essence, be true to how you conceive of the piece, whether the design is taken from a pattern or if its your own take on something thats already made. if you can put a flourish into it that can make it most definitely yours and while may resemble something that has already been made, maybe on a small scale or a larger scale even, it can still be authetically "handmade" by you if you make it true to how you envision it.

[TEN CRACK COMMANDMENTZ]

martin greenfield doesn't make thom browne's stuff. it's someone else, but i've promised not to divulge.

SNITCH SNITCH SNITCH

i knew it wasnt him, though...

[Charlie Delta]

So Jeep, according to your mom's theory it doesn't have anything to do with the actual production of the pieces but more about the idea behind it?

[andewhall]

Yeah good topic cotton, I hardly ever read superfashion either. It is a murky subject. I think these days its more the size of the operation and machinery used. Its almost impossible to be 100% handmade if you wanna get picky...make your own needles...grow cotton and spin your own thread, weave your own cloth. Of course its not really feasable, don't get me wrong it would be awesome....however it would probably take 20 years to master all these seperate crafts first before making your first garment.

eg. cutting garments in large scale lays...where thre is 50-100 lays of fabric then cut with a huge ban saw as opposed to one person chalking up every pair from the pattern and cutting out with shears etc. A freind of mine is actually an old school trained cutter, however they did smaller lay ups than most big factories....but now that business is no longer in operation or rather it has changed to an import company. Another example is when sewing machines were gradually invented to perform specific tasks quicker. Twin needle chain stitch machines with felling feeder in place of single needle felled operation. Shank button holer machine in place of hand stitched button hole. Manual press machine, then power press machine in place of a hammer for rivets. Its pretty amazing what the sewing machine companies have come up with in the last hundred years....its all about making production faster. The flat feller is a prime example...it makes that one inseam operation about 10 times faster. Feed the inseam in and big strong walking foot claws feed it through and do it in one fast operation...and having the twin needle chainstitch set-up of 3 cones of thread and no bobbin means you can literally sewing for miles untill the large cones run out. You could probably do 200 inseams continously...where as in late 1800's you would have to change the bobbin on your single needle every 3 or so pairs.

Got a headache and typing like shit, but will come back to this one...see if I can find these pic's I have of super modern sewing machines....more like sprawling aparat'i.

[jeepster]

So Jeep, according to your mom's theory it doesn't have anything to do with the actual production of the pieces but more about the idea behind it?

thats the gist of what she said. i felt that though thats true, i do believe that its important to actually get down and dirty with the work itself. she was being a bit PC when she said all that stuff. i feel like that to authenticate your own work, there has to be considerable time and effort put into it, and the idea actually has to translate to reality, be it crappy or wonderful. i tried making a pair of pants back in like 8th grade after taking home econ. and, well, epic fail. but i feel like that i did accomplish something by purely trying and putting in my time and effort to create something that was wholely mine. i was rewarded with effort points by my home econ. teacher for attempting it though haha

[LA Guy]

According to recent rumors it is not Martin Greenfield although that was the general concensus. At least we do know for certain his shoes are made by Trickers (and sold with a heavy markup-although to be fair he offers slightly tweaked designs).

I've never seen a made in italy tag on Browne's suits.

Huh.

Wait, am I confusing TB with Lanvin? Lanvin stuff is made by Corneliani, right? I could've sworn about the TB jacket, but apparently, memory serves me wrong.

[Crillz]

Hand Made < Made with L<3VE

[peteyross]

I think that you are talking about Martin Greenfield, one of the oldest quality manufacturers in the US. He actually makes the Black Fleece Line, which is not surprising seeing as the Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece MTM program is also through him. I believe that Thom Browne.'s mainline suits and sportsjackets are made by Zegna in Italy, however. The TB stuff that I have seen all indicates Italian origin.

You sure you're not thinking of Tom Ford?

[peteyross]

Huh.

Wait, am I confusing TB with Lanvin? Lanvin stuff is made by Corneliani, right? I could've sworn about the TB jacket, but apparently, memory serves me wrong.

Lanvin is made by MA.CO (aka Raffaele Caruso Sartoria Parma). MA.CO also makes suits for Ralph Lauren Black Label and Brooks Brothers 1918 line. Corneliani makes suits for the Ralph Lauren Polo line. Martin Greenfield also makes suits for Freemans Sporting. Tom Ford uses Zegna for suits.

When people know something is made by hand, they quite often incorrectly assume that it is superior. Sometimes a machine can be used to produce a better result.

[l3ootlegs]

all i can think of..is MA+

[TEN CRACK COMMANDMENTZ]

FSC is truly a strange line and store...

[peteyross]

FSC is truly a strange line and store...

I can't figure it out either. Who shops there?

[TEN CRACK COMMANDMENTZ]

I can't figure it out either. Who shops there?

i can imagine perhaps Bill enjoying that store...but he'd probably just go for "real" vintage ya dig?

i like their suit idea though, it's interesting.

it's always the people you wouldnt expect. i saw this older guy (white hair) shopping at union. dude was freshin.

[andewhall]

When people know something is made by hand, they quite often incorrectly assume that it is superior. Sometimes a machine can be used to produce a better result.

This is correct, although I would rather have the tell tale signs of human-ness like the single needle arcurates on levis that are a little big wonky over robotic neatness. A buddy of mine is an antique bottle dealer, and actually digs in 150 year old pits...back in the days when they used to dig a whole in the back yard, chuck the rubbish in and cover it up when its full. He pulls out awesome stuff, really detailed pottery toothpaste lids, gingerbeer bottles etc. His catch phrase is..look at how crude and beautiful this bottle is, and you can tell there was much more of a hand in making stuff, a human element.

[TEN CRACK COMMANDMENTZ]

i like the impersonality and uniformity of line-made items.

i only appreciate human impact when it leads to a better product.

unfortunately this doesn't occur often. i love how the machine can only have certain states, the beautiful repeatability and standardization of it.

funny how we make something better and now we want to go back to the old, less efficient way.

[andewhall]

Does your favorite 'restaurant' start with Mc..? Just kidding man. At the end of the day its all personal preference of course.

Post your mass production dislikes.

Wine in plastic..then in a box, actually beverages in plastic full stop.

funny how we make something better and now we want to go back to the old, less efficient way.

New is not always better. Serged seams are a nice invention, fast and reliable way to finish seams, but they have nothing on a felled, turned in or bound seam.

[TEN CRACK COMMANDMENTZ]

mcdonald's keeps things too human. i like wawa's service because there is a machine interface which takes care of most everything.

[andewhall]

Haha classic, whats wawa's...a burger joint. I guess thats the ways its going, hardly ever get humans answering phones these days. When I order a taxi, this robots says...are you ready now (in robot-ish voice)...I yell yes, it hangs up and I wait for taxi.

[TEN CRACK COMMANDMENTZ]

no it's not a hamburger joint. it is a convenience store that also serves food. it's hard to explain if you haven't been there. anyway i am glad that i dont have to talk to anyone when i go there.

i dont like talking to humans on the phone either. unless they are following a script, then it's basically like talking to a robot.

[billiamgates]

so i found out that raf simmons shirts are made in macedonia. is that a like made in japan good, or a made in china bad?