SUFU Analog Audio-Philes

[heBAY]

Maybe that's a contradictory statement when talking about basic 4-track recorders.

I am tired of doing the digital thing all the time...used to have a Tascam (actually was a mid-grade analog 8-track) and a Fostex (after a bad experience with the Tascam, I went for the most basic $100 4-track...record, stop, play, change tracks, rewind, repeat...but that cocked out on me after prolonged use)...any SuFu engineer or audio heads here know about analog 4-tracks? I either sold or broke my joints many years ago...so I have no real recollection of what's "great" and what's "whatever."

I am looking to record live music...nothing special...just want a nice, warm, sound with the option to do a little more post first-take. Willing to spend little to a lot...so call out the best options for both basic and pro (although I'm not to sure about reel to reel).

I apologize for sounding a little like Steve Albini here...but I see the man's point.

[mrjuby]

was the tascam one that you had a bad experience with the porta 02? i was about to buy one but i backed out because i needed the money.

ive seen some nice used cassette recorders on ebay before. and used electronics stores carry some that have been fixed and are in working condition. one of these days i'm gonna get around to buying one.

heBAY what did you use to record digitally? im with you on digital recording. i wanna get more hardware instead of more software. i dont want to turn this into a digital vs analog debate though. but i do like reading the reading the different views from the people on either sides.

i know theres a user here who mentioned that he does this professionally. time to do some thread digging.

edit: josephr. http://www.superfuture.com/supertalk/showthread.php?t=32258&page=2

[keagan]

What do you want to do exactly? Record a whole 4 piece band?

I hate talking about warmth because noone really knows what it is. Analog vs digital debate is fucking stupid. It doesn't really matter.

Seriously, PSP vintage warmer sounds just as good, if not better than running my signal through my dads solid state logic mixdown compressors and preamps. Which are basically 4,000 dollar worthless pieces of shit.

His ssl mic preamp sounds great, yes. But it isn't anything that isn't unobtainable with a good mix and a few mastering vsts

If you want to go all analog, for whatever reason; it's all about your mic preamps

You could spend 500 to 10k on them. And of course there is no "best preamp" it's all about what sounds good to you.

then after investing into a couple of those I would recommend picking up cornish mixer- (ala A&H) depending on how many channels you need... I run everything into a a&h 464- which is a 6 channel dj mixer.

But that is just me, of course.

Then I mix down into a teac A-3340. But you said you don't want to work with reel to reel?

What else is there? If you're using cassettes because you think you're getting an "analog sound" you're fooling yourself.

[heBAY]

was the tascam one that you had a bad experience with the porta 02?

heBAY what did you use to record digitally? im with you on digital recording. i wanna get more hardware instead of more software. i dont want to turn this into a digital vs analog debate though. but i do like reading the reading the different views from the people on either sides.

i know theres a user here who mentioned that he does this professionally. time to do some thread digging.

edit: josephr. http://www.superfuture.com/supertalk/showthread.php?t=32258&page=2

Thanks for the info on the fellow SuFu'er to talk to as well as the reply. I think it was two steps higher than the Porta 02. It was significantly larger, with i think 8 tracks (or atleast 4 tracks with 6 channel slides)...some shit liek that. It just sucked for the job that I wanted it to do (which was something more for a digital, non-destructive editing sorta set up...track bouncing was a bitch on that thing).

My current digital set up consists of a Aardvark Direct Pro 96 soundcard and a pirated version of Cool Edit Pro from my freshman year in college (fuckin' '99). I have a few plug ins for it...but don't really record much at the crib anymore. I'm more of a hardware head anyways...if we were talking production...I'd be about an mpc2000xl or 3000 over Fruity Loops anyday (but that's already in a whole other thread and this isn't necessarily about analog vs. digital). I also have a dbx tube mic-pre which does the d/a conversion from my mixer to the soundcard, so that helps warm shit up. We usually head to my boy's professional lab where he's got the whole Pro Tools, trillions of plug ins, expensive pro mic in a sick vocal booth, clean signal, blah blah blah. But since I've been wanting to experiment, as well as add to my set up, I've been looking back into both cheap and pro analog recording options.

What do you want to do exactly? Record a whole 4 piece band?

I hate talking about warmth because noone really knows what it is. Analog vs digital debate is fucking stupid. It doesn't really matter.

Seriously, PSP vintage warmer sounds just as good, if not better than running my signal through my dads solid state logic mixdown compressors and preamps. Which are basically 4,000 dollar worthless pieces of shit.

His ssl mic preamp sounds great, yes. But it isn't anything that isn't unobtainable with a good mix and a few mastering vsts

If you want to go all analog, for whatever reason; it's all about your mic preamps

You could spend 500 to 10k on them. And of course there is no "best preamp" it's all about what sounds good to you.

then after investing into a couple of those I would recommend picking up cornish mixer- (ala A&H) depending on how many channels you need... I run everything into a a&h 464- which is a 6 channel dj mixer.

But that is just me, of course.

Then I mix down into a teac A-3340. But you said you don't want to work with reel to reel?

What else is there? If you're using cassettes because you think you're getting an "analog sound" you're fooling yourself.

Thanks Keagan...your opinion/input is definitely good for this thread. As I said before, I'm def. not about to start the pointless argument of digi vs. analog...I can say that I myself prefer hardware over software...so that'll probably mean that I will be "wasting" my money in the eyes of some readers...oh well...I honestly do believe that there's just something authentic/genuine that comes from hardware...don't care to elaborate on it though.

Yes...it's for a 4 piece, loud, band...just experimenting with the gritty and the clear warmth that you can get with both cheaper tape recorders to whatever the fuck the pro's use. Might I also add that I may continue to do some Hip Hop instrumental stuff with the analog method if I get some good results. Would the "all about the mic preamp" theory still stand for non-mic'd music?

Two more questions...are the ssl compressors and preamps worthless shit to you because you can achieve the same quality with a flip of a couple plug-ins (that won't run you near 4 g's)? Second, why would i be fooling myself by recording on cassette as an analog alternative (because much of the sound frequencies are lost or jarbled with such a primitive recording format...it would be better to lose a bit of the organic quality yet maintain clarity by going digital)?

I'm actually considering learning reel to reel now that you mentioned it. How easy is it to navigate from a first timer's perspective (haven't been around too many of those)?

[mizanation]

enh...

learning reel to reel, using an 8 track, etc., etc...

it's like learning an ancient form of kung fu. sure, it was the shit back in the day. sure, it's really cool looking and there's a sort of historical/traditional attachment and respect...

but there's a lot better ways to do things now.

keegan pretty much hit it right on head.

if you want to maximize your sound quality spend your money on a good tube mic preamp, like keegan said, but i would also suggest that you buy the best condensor mic you can buy. after that, it doesn't matter if you record digital or analog. it's all going to depend on how you control the mix.

[keagan]

Thanks Keagan...your opinion/input is definitely good for this thread. As I said before, I'm def. not about to start the pointless argument of digi vs. analog...I can say that I myself prefer hardware over software...so that'll probably mean that I will be "wasting" my money in the eyes of some readers...oh well...I honestly do believe that there's just something authentic/genuine that comes from hardware...don't care to elaborate on it though.

Yes...it's for a 4 piece, loud, band...just experimenting with the gritty and the clear warmth that you can get with both cheaper tape recorders to whatever the fuck the pro's use. Might I also add that I may continue to do some Hip Hop instrumental stuff with the analog method if I get some good results. Would the "all about the mic preamp" theory still stand for non-mic'd music?

It sounds like you're looking for a lo-fi sound rather than something with more "warmth" than digital.

If that is the case, just start experimenting, go down to a pawn shop or something and start buying everything that looks interesting- it doesn't really matter, it's not my concern... I can't tell you whats in your local pawnshop. Unfortunately.

Two more questions...are the ssl compressors and preamps worthless shit to you because you can achieve the same quality with a flip of a couple plug-ins (that won't run you near 4 g's)?

For music mastering, yes.

For television, radio and film (what my dad does), probably not.

Second, why would i be fooling myself by recording on cassette as an analog alternative (because much of the sound frequencies are lost or jarbled with such a primitive recording format...it would be better to lose a bit of the organic quality yet maintain clarity by going digital)?

as I said earlier, if you're going for a lofi thing it doesn't really matter. If you where making, say, house music, then I would say you're trying to hard to get away from the norm (the computer).

And this is a big thing with the dance music production community.

Guys are grabbing at everything that is remotely old school because they think it makes the whole project a bit more "real".

I'm actually considering learning reel to reel now that you mentioned it. How easy is it to navigate from a first timer's perspective (haven't been around too many of those)?

it's not hard really, just got make sure everythings clean and what not. I though I bookmarked a site that explained it really well. I can't find it right now though. I'll hit you up if I come across it again

[heBAY]

Thanks again for the input...

The cheapo tape 4-track would be for experimentation and bullshitting around with lofi'ness...not for anything but that.

The "pro analog" shit or whatever is for "warmth" or whtever the fuck makes me feel warm in the ears.

But say I'm doing hip hop production...would the focus on the mic preamp still apply even if I'm not live mic'ing the music? I understand that a real tube and strong d/a converter would help sexy up a signal no matter what it is...but I think Miz mentioning the condensor mic may be adding some confusion to that question. So for non-live mic'ing...still focus on getting a good mic preamp to run the sound through for what I'm talking about...rather than a premium compressor/limiter?

I ask that again since I'm also looking at getting the next piece of signal strengthening equipment (meaning to give me more body/umph to the production...really for my Hip Hop shit). Thanks again.

[poly800rock]

i just picked up a tascam 16 input 4 track cassette midistudio. I still can't get into the whole digital recording stuff. Its actually pretty hard to find cassettes now too. Had to go to multiple places to get anything.

if you're looking for lofi. It's basically sm57 all the way. what kind of music are you trying to do? If it's anything other than rock, I'd probably suggest digital.

or if you go reel to reel, i had an old 2 track i stole from my college radio station. It sounded phenomenal, would love to use a 4 or 8 track reel to reel. Kind of regret selling it though

[keagan]

Thanks again for the input...

The cheapo tape 4-track would be for experimentation and bullshitting around with lofi'ness...not for anything but that.

The "pro analog" shit or whatever is for "warmth" or whtever the fuck makes me feel warm in the ears.

But say I'm doing hip hop production...would the focus on the mic preamp still apply even if I'm not live mic'ing the music? I understand that a real tube and strong d/a converter would help sexy up a signal no matter what it is...but I think Miz mentioning the condensor mic may be adding some confusion to that question. So for non-live mic'ing...still focus on getting a good mic preamp to run the sound through for what I'm talking about...rather than a premium compressor/limiter?

I ask that again since I'm also looking at getting the next piece of signal strengthening equipment (meaning to give me more body/umph to the production...really for my Hip Hop shit). Thanks again.

No? If you're not using a microphone what are you going to use a mic preamp for? I think you're a bit confused. It goes

microphone

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preamp or effects

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effects or preamp

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mixer

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post effects/limter/compressor/secret weapon, ect

|

|

sequencer/recorder/computer, ect

I mean, you could run your signal through a microphone preamp, but im not sure what it would sound like.

What is your set up currently? I suppose you could get a exciter or something.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/204/

Remember, in a monitoring situation you don't want to colour the sound at all.

[keagan]

Of course simply running your signal through a quality mixer might give your stuff the umph you're looking for

[artificialsky]

who fucking cares?

[heBAY]

i just picked up a tascam 16 input 4 track cassette midistudio. I still can't get into the whole digital recording stuff. Its actually pretty hard to find cassettes now too. Had to go to multiple places to get anything.

if you're looking for lofi. It's basically sm57 all the way. what kind of music are you trying to do? If it's anything other than rock, I'd probably suggest digital.

or if you go reel to reel, i had an old 2 track i stole from my college radio station. It sounded phenomenal, would love to use a 4 or 8 track reel to reel. Kind of regret selling it though

Poly, I actually have a shitload of cassettes...30 mins, 60 mins, 90 mins...from back when I used to get them wholesale for recording and mixtape-making (the 90 mins). If you want, I can check out my "stock" and see how many survived the years...

Yeah...for lo-fi/hi-fi analog, it'd be a rock band...more like a loud, aggressive, rock band.

Thanks for the input famski.

No? If you're not using a microphone what are you going to use a mic preamp for? I think you're a bit confused. It goes

microphone

|

|

preamp or effects

|

|

effects or preamp

|

|

mixer

|

|

post effects/limter/compressor/secret weapon, ect

|

|

sequencer/recorder/computer, ect

I mean, you could run your signal through a microphone preamp, but im not sure what it would sound like.

What is your set up currently? I suppose you could get a exciter or something.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/204/

Remember, in a monitoring situation you don't want to colour the sound at all.

Right...I got you on that.

My set up for non-live shit is:

Akai MPC2000xl/Ensoniq ASR-10 (w/ Korg Triton rack)/Akai S-950

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A few options...I have a Presonus Compressor, a dBX Tube Mic Preamp, and THAT same Exciter...basically whatever I got sitting in the rack for A/D conversion (haven't tried the mic preamp yet)...the Exciter works great...the Compressor I'm iffy about.

|

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Direct Pro 96 soundcard (digital in)

Sorry if I failed to mention that earlier. I also have a Mackie 1402 VLZ (not VLZ3) mixer. It's cool...but I've stopped fuckin' with it since my og MPC2000 studio experienced "pad-death"...I was running my mixes from there since it had the 8 outputs (my 2000xl is just left and right outs).

I was actually told a while ago from my boy who is an engineer about using my dbx mic preamp for it's A/D conversion and tube processing (for a better, warmer sounding signal with direct input electronic production). The Presonus compressor is pretty "alright"...but honestly, I'm looking at selling that and getting an Avalon joint (yeah it'll cost...Sweetwater payment plan?).

This is slowly drifting away from analog recording...

Well shit...for Hip Hop...how did cats like the Fat Boys record back in '84? Not necessarily the vox...more so the Kurtis Blow production. I'm pretty sure it was analog...from the drum machines and synths to the Reel to Reel.

[mizanation]

cats in the 80s went to studios like 1212 in queens and recorded onto tape, just like rock bands. are you asking how they made their beats?

dude, you're getting confused over really easy shit.

sounds like you want to know what you need for the following...

live band setting

and

hip hop production

for live band, i am assuming you want to record everything at the same time. if so, you are going to need a mic for each instrument/voice and several mics for the drums. all the mics run to your VLZ which has mic preamps and your mixer runs it to your recording device, which can be your aardvark.

that's it. seriously, you should already know this by now if you have all this equipment, bro.

hip hop production:

bounce your mpc data to your multi-track recorder on your computer. if you want, you can run it through a preamp, but it's not necessary. you can run it through straight to your sound card.

you don't need to buy an avalon yet. learn how to use what you got first.

[heBAY]

cats in the 80s went to studios like 1212 in queens and recorded onto tape, just like rock bands. are you asking how they made their beats?

dude, you're getting confused over really easy shit.

sounds like you want to know what you need for the following...

live band setting

and

hip hop production

for live band, i am assuming you want to record everything at the same time. if so, you are going to need a mic for each instrument/voice and several mics for the drums. all the mics run to your VLZ which has mic preamps and your mixer runs it to your recording device, which can be your aardvark.

that's it. seriously, you should already know this by now if you have all this equipment, bro.

hip hop production:

bounce your mpc data to your multi-track recorder on your computer. if you want, you can run it through a preamp, but it's not necessary. you can run it through straight to your sound card.

you don't need to buy an avalon yet. learn how to use what you got first.

Miz...good looks on the bit about recording the live band...but honestly, your reply was a bit extra. The reason why I started this topic was to gain a better perspective about analog recording options...primarily for a LIVE band...which I have never done...not to get "schooled" on my current digital set up (sound card included).

Keagan DID hit it on the head for hi (classic) and lo-fi analog recording...but he, Poly, and you were also throwing some good side tips on general recording that didn't JUST pertain to the topic of analog recording...so I appreciate that. But definitely don't hit me with the "learn to use your equipment first" reply... maybe that's my fault for not making it super clear...whatever happened, it ain't the case for me, nor was it a question in the thread.

The hip hop recording in ANALOG biz was a secondary question that arose after getting my answer to the original question of recording the live band in both hi and lo analog. That's it, figgadiggadealsme?

But I'm glad everyone knows their shit...there's obviously a myriad of ways to record a single sound...rather, there's not just ONE right way to record a single sound.

[mizanation]

didn't mean to come off harsh.

i wouldn't get an avalon because for what you are trying to do, your VLZ should handle it even if you are recording to an analog recording machine--you'll have more control because there's a preamp on each input. with the avalon, it's great if you're recording track by track, but if you want to capture that live feel, you will want control over each input. the avalon is one of the best preamps period (i've been using mine for years), but your VLZ should take care of what you need. if you really want to get anal about the sound, you can record each track through your mixer and afterwards run it through the avalon, but this is probably overkill.

people still use tascam 4 tracks for recording demos because of it's ease of use and convenience. but, there are other options.

have you heard of s-vhs? you can record very high fidelity analog audio using s-vhs. i used to do this in the 90's. this is another option if you are looking for very obscure ways to record analog, but it might be hard to find an s-vhs audio recorder.

hip hop production back in the day was time consuming and knuckle busting.

the break beats that we use now have already been chopped, diced, compressed and processed to get that sound. for example, the "steezo" beat was actually made by paul c. paul c would chop up each kick and snare, compress, add reverb, and run it through the ssl board to get that classic hip hop sound. on top of that, it would get sampled through his sp12/1200 which would further filter the audio. now, we just take the sample (which is the result of all that hard work) and put it in a track, not knowing how much time went into making that specific feel.

[heBAY]

didn't mean to come off harsh.

i wouldn't get an avalon because for what you are trying to do, your VLZ should handle it even if you are recording to an analog recording machine--you'll have more control because there's a preamp on each input. with the avalon, it's great if you're recording track by track, but if you want to capture that live feel, you will want control over each input. the avalon is one of the best preamps period (i've been using mine for years), but your VLZ should take care of what you need. if you really want to get anal about the sound, you can record each track through your mixer and afterwards run it through the avalon, but this is probably overkill.

people still use tascam 4 tracks for recording demos because of it's ease of use and convenience. but, there are other options.

have you heard of s-vhs? you can record very high fidelity analog audio using s-vhs. i used to do this in the 90's. this is another option if you are looking for very obscure ways to record analog, but it might be hard to find an s-vhs audio recorder.

hip hop production back in the day was time consuming and knuckle busting.

the break beats that we use now have already been chopped, diced, compressed and processed to get that sound. for example, the "steezo" beat was actually made by paul c. paul c would chop up each kick and snare, compress, add reverb, and run it through the ssl board to get that classic hip hop sound. on top of that, it would get sampled through his sp12/1200 which would further filter the audio. now, we just take the sample (which is the result of all that hard work) and put it in a track, not knowing how much time went into making that specific feel.

All good fams...these types of topics can be confusing since you're trying to help through your personal experience and knowledge of sound and different equipment, all while guessing what the person actually wants to achieve (and since there are so many different ways to getting that result...it can be a mindfuck).

Which Avalon piece do you have...the mic preamp? You work with mostly live jazz stuff right?

Which brings me to a very important thing that you mentioned...I totally fuckin' forgot about S-VHS...off to eBAY I go. That is definitely an option I'd consider.

Very true words about old school Hip-Hop production methods...thank goodness for Paul C, Kurtis Blow, Sam Sever/Mantronix, etc. Nowadays, it's sample the old rap record or a disk full of LINN drums for your MPC and throw 'em through a reverb box (if you're talkin' those huge old school boom bap bap drums). I can't say that I'm jealous of what they had to go through to achieve that sound...not to mention that any samplers from back then only had around 8 seconds of sampling time.

[mizanation]

yeah, i have the vt-737sp. i run a neumann U87 into it.

actually, i do almost completely hip-hop and r&b, man. there's not too much money in jazz.

i don't think they make a multi-track S-VHS analog recorder, and i just looked right now. now that i think of it, i'm pretty sure we were recording onto S-VHS for digital, so it's probably not what you want.

theoretically, you could make a multi-track S-VHS analog recorder using the linear track for a time code to sync up the tracks and record the audio on the hi-fi soundtrack. why you would want to do this is beyond me, but it would be a 4-track on crack.

[josephr]

yeah, i have the vt-737sp. i run a neumann U87 into it.

actually, i do almost completely hip-hop and r&b, man. there's not too much money in jazz.

i don't think they make a multi-track S-VHS analog recorder, and i just looked right now. now that i think of it, i'm pretty sure we were recording onto S-VHS for digital, so it's probably not what you want.

theoretically, you could make a multi-track S-VHS analog recorder using the linear track for a time code to sync up the tracks and record the audio on the hi-fi soundtrack. why you would want to do this is beyond me, but it would be a 4-track on crack.

SVHS tapes are used with the alesis ADAT format. they are usually 8 track machines that get synched together for more tracks (usually 3 for 24), but totally digital.

[mizanation]

yeah, but S-VHS has an analog hi-fi soundtrack. not multi-track though.

[josephr]

one of the problems with the analog vs digital or hardware vs software debate is that a lot of people don't consider the quality range within each approach. in analog you have shitty sounding cassette 4 tracks and also very high end mastering reel 2 reels. in digital you have the soundblaster vs. an apogee.

for me, i use computers and digital because i want high quality recordings and i'd rather backtrack and master to tape / bounce stuff out/etc for the sound than try to work with a strictly analog multitrack situation because i can't afford (and no one else would pay for) tape.

it is much much harder to get high quality recordings using analog equipment than digital due to issues of cost, tape, maintinence, etc. but this is only one part of the equation. the recording medium could be one of the least important links in the chain at the end of the day if you have shitty mics, pre, desk.

all this having been said there are lots of nice 4 track otari mx 5050 reel2reels that can be made to sound super nice floating around.

[josephr]

yeah, but S-VHS has an analog hi-fi soundtrack. not multi-track though.

i just sayin that you can use ADAT machines to record multitrack onto SVHS but as you mentioned it's digital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADAT

why would you go to the trouble of using the analog soundtrack on svhs tapes. that's like someone read tape op and took it too far.

[heBAY]

As I just told Miz...

For the live shit...I think I may just try to go with a tascam 4-track or just one-takes into the hi-fi s-vhs tape.

The reel to reel shit IS gonna get pricey...and can get fucked up pretty easily.

Thanks to everyone who gave input...it definitely helped me confirm my doubts and my ideas on experimenting with the recording medium.

[poly800rock]

4 track ftw. You already know you won't get professional with the stuff, so why not just experiement? I've been using 4 track cassette records for like 10 years now, I end up doing a lot of direct in, simply because I'm lazy and actually think the natural distortion sounds great for the stuff i record. As far as 4 tracks sounding "warm". I think the only thing that sounds warm on cassette is vocals. Drums always sound kind of trashy in a good way.......My rig is fostex 4 track, with either an sm57 and shitty shure on one track. the 57 directly on the speaker and the multidirectional further a bit away (robert smith used to do this). It's either that or direct in. Bass, vocals, and even guitar sound decent that way. No need for pre-amp

[mizanation]

one of the problems with the analog vs digital or hardware vs software debate is that a lot of people don't consider the quality range within each approach. in analog you have shitty sounding cassette 4 tracks and also very high end mastering reel 2 reels. in digital you have the soundblaster vs. an apogee.

for me, i use computers and digital because i want high quality recordings and i'd rather backtrack and master to tape / bounce stuff out/etc for the sound than try to work with a strictly analog multitrack situation because i can't afford (and no one else would pay for) tape.

it is much much harder to get high quality recordings using analog equipment than digital due to issues of cost, tape, maintinence, etc. but this is only one part of the equation. the recording medium could be one of the least important links in the chain at the end of the day if you have shitty mics, pre, desk.

all this having been said there are lots of nice 4 track otari mx 5050 reel2reels that can be made to sound super nice floating around.

yup.

10chars

[heBAY]

4 track ftw. You already know you won't get professional with the stuff, so why not just experiement? I've been using 4 track cassette records for like 10 years now, I end up doing a lot of direct in, simply because I'm lazy and actually think the natural distortion sounds great for the stuff i record. As far as 4 tracks sounding "warm". I think the only thing that sounds warm on cassette is vocals. Drums always sound kind of trashy in a good way.......My rig is fostex 4 track, with either an sm57 and shitty shure on one track. the 57 directly on the speaker and the multidirectional further a bit away (robert smith used to do this). It's either that or direct in. Bass, vocals, and even guitar sound decent that way. No need for pre-amp

Exactly the words I was looking for...distorted and trashy...kinda reminds me of some 7"'s I had...one from Spazz I think was pretty crazy in that sense...or was it Smile (a world of difference between the two bands)...either way...it had that good ole crunch to it.

I gotta get my fuckin' sm57 back from my boy...but knowing him...I'm better off buying a new one.

[poly800rock]

the entire "get action" record by teengenerate was recorded on a 4 track. that's the garage rock and roll trashy that's great. wolfie's awful mess mystery is also 4 track and sound better than their "where's wolfie" album which was an 8 track cassette. That's my frame of reference for lofi pop.