What happened?

[skecr8r]

This is actually a spin-off of a thought that hit me when I was browsing the submitted t-shirt designs.

What happened? Really. Since when have all the people on this board had such a compassion for selvage jeans? It might just be a current trend, but this is really weird. This should be about fashion, and its about jeans. Everybody even thinks this board is only about jeans and just look at the designs.

Whatever happened to make people feel like they are vintage experts? Most doesn't even know who did what back in the days and only want all the new "fancy" selvage jeans. THIS IS HORRIBLE.

Why is it that everybody is so turned on with selvage? I don't get it... What is it that makes you feel so good about having a selvage pair of jeans instead of regular Diesel?

I'm writing this to try to comprehend. I'm a vintage jeans fanatic, but 98% of this board aren't. What happened?

Denim Fanatismé.

[hahnstch]

skecr8r,

i think there's a difference between having a compassion for selvage and claiming to be vintage experts. i dont think most people here qualify to be vintage experts, i myself am not definitely. as for compassion for selvage, i second that it might be just a current trend and there's some element of hype. for me, my interest is not solely limited to selvage jeans, i still go back and forth between premium jeans and street labels, as long as they don't look fag

[skecr8r]

You're probably right, but its just interesting that there suddenly is this hype created.

Denim Fanatismé.

[themdouble]

Why so strange? if it seems anoying, just ride it out (like Dunk SB's or A Bathing Ape, etc.)...

Surely you've read "The Tipping Point".

I'm with you though... I mean I like my denim but freak...

-Dub

[Guest]

I feel you on the hype. I think someone posted somthing that selvedge denim will never get too mainstream, because many of the brands that make this are dry or one-wash, and the majority of the market wants washed & treated denim. It seems that a bunch of denim people concentrated here though.

I think the T shirt thing spun in that direction because people thought (myself included) that the T shirt design was supposed to be for the subset of supertalkers that were into denim. So that's why all the t shirts ended up looking like that.

A few more points:

1. A lot of people, myself included, found Superfuture from doing a general search of denim and selvedge. That would explain the high concentration of people who are into that.

2. The point of this forum should be to share knowledge. And I think this forum has successfully done that by virtue of many passionate people who love to share what they know. I think this shared knowledge has led many to understand more about denim and maybe get into it more. Or maybe some people think the opposite: that it's all really stupid.

3. I don't think many people are claiming to be experts here or anything, but I do see where you're coming from. It's kinda wierd to be really into something that's a little obscure and then have it get really popular all of a sudden. Happens in music all the time. So, I feel you on that, it kinda sucks.

4. I think that while most poeople wear jeans everyday, 99% of them don't know anything about them. Denim is like the most ubiquitous fashion piece of clothing there is really. People who are into putting care into what they wear, want to learn more about the clothes they spend so much time and money on so they can be a more informed buyer.

As for myself, I've had a pair of selvedge denim before superfuture, and also have 'street' brands, or more fashiony brands too. I must admit this forum has peaked my interest for denim just by educating me on how it is made and sold. It is very interesting, and I am grateful for the knowledge I've learned. I have admittedly gotten more into well made jeans due to this site (many of which happen to be selvedge). But at the same time, I don't think I'd ever rock a t shirt that explicitly said I was into selvedge, and nor would I cuff my jeans just to floss the selvedge either.

Sorry for the long post, I think the coffee just had me goin..

[Yakboy Equals Nurturer]

Quote: You're probably right, but its just interesting that there suddenly is this hype created.

How is it sudden? People have been hyping repros of classic styles using selvage denim since Evisu first became a big deal outside of Japan. It may have reached saturation with the addition of labels like PRPS and 5EP, but it's nothing new.

[Yakboy Equals Nurturer]

Quote: What is it that makes you feel so good about having a selvage pair of jeans instead of regular Diesel?

I would have thought that were fairly obvious: Exclusivity (whether through cost or the difficulty involved in getting a pair) and quality (real or percieved). Same reason an Oxxford suit is preferable to a Brooksease, a PowerBook is preferable to a Dell or Grey Goose is preferable to Georgi.

[skecr8r]

First post, Yakboy: My point was also that the denim market has misconcieved the point: This isn't about replicas, it is actually about real vintage denim, which everybody somehow has forgotten. They rather wanna wear a PRPS pair instead of a 60s Levis Big E, and that is whats really weird to me.

Well, more and cheaper vintage denim for me.

Denim Fanatismé.

[Yakboy Equals Nurturer]

I think that the vintage denim and high-end premium denim markets are pretty different though. People who seek out vintage stuff are generally more dedicated to their denim and have something of a collector mentality. Nothing less than an authentic vintage piece will do. People who seek out high-end premium stuff are on more of a fashion kick. They want high quality denim, but they also want to be able to pick from more contemporary cuts. An obscure, cool brand or label never hurts either.

Personally, I'll go for a well made repro. I'd love to have one or two well preserved pairs of vintage Levi's, but I'm not paying the eBay markup and don't have the inclination to spend my Saturdays looking through second hand store that have already been picked clean.

[juxtaposed]

can anyone school me on why people prefer real vinage big Es over LVCs?

i personally like LVC better. and i dont see the difference.

arent they made the same way?, same shuttle looms, same cotton, same cut, same details,

same washes?

besides that i like the fact, that LVC are new, i mean they were worn just by me.

but the main reason i like them better, is that i hardly pay more than 40 bucks for them, since my buddy works in the LVC outlet...and i get the special-special discount. (-;

and also chasing vintage big Es, can become insane.

check this out

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=52392&item=8303197280&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

[darknworn]

Quote:

can anyone school me on why people prefer real vinage big Es over LVCs?

i personally like LVC better. and i dont see the difference.

arent they made the same way?, same shuttle looms, same cotton, same cut, same details,

same washes?

besides that i like the fact, that LVC are new, i mean they were worn just by me.

but the main reason i like them better, is that i hardly pay more than 40 bucks for them, since my buddy works in the LVC outlet...and i get the special-special discount. (-;

and also chasing vintage big Es, can become insane.

check this out

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=52392&item=8303197280&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

--- Original message by juxtaposed on May 2, 2005 08:42 AM

time passed can never be relived. a 40 year old pair of levi's has seen its share of history and has earned its character. this is something no lvc jeans can replicate. but you should always try to make your own history, buy a decent pair of dry selvage and never let it go.

btw, can you hook some of us denimheads w/ your "special-special" discounts?

[juxtaposed]

yeah i see your point..

but i have already broken in a pair of evisus since 4,5 years now.and i must say they are the most beautiful jeans i own. they get better and better.

and now i got the LVC raw, dry ones, which i currently start to break in.

hooking you up, is a little difficult, cuz my mate wont do it for everybody. and shipping is from germany.

but i holla at you guys , when i got something..price would be higher then of course. maybe between up from 80 euros..

[skecr8r]

You don't see the difference? The difference is everything: the unique pair of jeans, the amount of wear to the leather patch, everything is different! The feel, the smell, the story.

The difference is that some of us care for the real vintage denim and not just the cut. I have jeans I will never wear and paid 500$ for them. Some times you pick up bargains like 6 501's on eBay for 10$ a pair. You guys don't check too good

Denim Fanatismé.

[soultek]

Dude, I totally feel you on one point: it sucks when you are into something hardcore, and then all of a sudden it gets popular. It happens in music all the time. It can be quite maddening. But it is what the hardcore collector faces all the time. How do you think all the hardcore wine collectors feel about all the hysteria created by the movie Sideways? Do you know how many "Sideways" wine tours are being run in that part of wine country these days? But I digress. I feel you point; I am just saying, that's life.

As to this comment above about vintage denim. I don't see eye to eye with you here though. For me, I am fascinated about vintage Levis, but I also like breaking in new denim. You just cannot get Big E in a dry state anymore (unless you go LVC, but that's not really vintage then is it?). I also like trying on jeans before I buy them. So to me, it makes sense to buy newer reproish jeans. Especially since I think many are made quite well.

It is really a seperation between the collectors (the minority) and the informed consumers. Again, I run into it all the time as a record collector. There's people who collect vinyl, then there's people who buy things mostly because they just like the music (be it obscure, expensive, cheap, or bad). Many times the collectors hate on the informed buyers, but in the end, isn't it just about the music? And likewise, in the end, isn't it about the denim? If it's well made, it's well made regardless. It's like a music purist hating on the reissuing of obscure out-of-print records.

"Hey, I just want to hear some good music man"

or

"Hey, I just want a good pair of jeans"

It's a neverending battle of different philosophies. I think there's room for both.

skecr8r: not try to diss you at all, hope it doesn't come across that way. I very much respect your view point and probably identify w/ you more than anything.

(jeez, that was long. Sorry..)

[merzbot]

well said soultek

though skecr8er, you are coming off as slightly arrogant. this recent 'craze' as you put it, in selvedge denim/authentic Big E/vintage bollocks is no where near as bad as it is with sneakers etc.. at the end of the day - apples and oranges.

i'll take a glass of cran apple please

[johnmc]

Apart from the historical aspect, the denim of LVC is nothing like the originals.

[juxtaposed]

why?

are the LVCs using different cotton? other materials? (leather patch?, rivets?)or different production? (dying, spinning, weaving, looms,etc? )

thanks for info..

[johnmc]

They can no longer use the original dyes for environmental reasons, American cotton is not the same as it was 50 years ago. You will see in modern copies that the red lines in the selvage do not fade with washing like originals. Levis can get all the details like buttons, rivets and stitching right (although I don't think they use the same thread) but they can't reproduce the biggest detail of all - the denim!

[juxtaposed]

aha, ok

thank you..i didnt know that.

why dont they use then cotton which has the attributes of the old US cotton? e.g. from zimbabwe? if they have trouble to dye them in US; have em dyed in tunisia or peru..they are donig part of their jeans there anyway.

why dont they work on these lacks in authenticity?

[skecr8r]

Soultek: 100% correct analysis, I have nothing further to add.

Merzbot: I didn't want to come of arrogant, but it has nothing to do with the sneaker craze as really, as far as I know, all sneakers are available within a certain range of dollars. This craze is just scaled up, jeans really get sold in Japan for 30.000$ - I am uninformed, truely, about sneakers, but I don't know how much Air Jordans go for?

Besides, SoulTek really just hit the nail on the spot with that, as a collector of hiphop vinyls as well, I am surely also feeling that thing there.

Mainstream or not; I just like being true to what I do and jeans is currently nearly the only thing i do.

The reason why I did this topic was to adress another point as well, which is the hard time having to understand the millions of denim threads popping up all the time here.

But I can't thank SoulTek enough for good grammar and putting everything in one post. Thanks, deod.

Denim Fanatismé.

[indigo_pete]

I've got to get in on some of this....

Every trend worth following will eventually creep into the masses - though the pioneers will still be the originals. And the masses will probably never, ever express your passion (esp. skecr8r) or experience your level of understanding. Whether you know selvedge, a true nickle button when you see one or the difference between a 2/N stitch sewn on a dbl-needle machine vs. single needle, we'll always take pride in knowing what we know and comparing notes with others. I've been collecting (though not very successfully) for nearly 9 years now...before all the good Levi's were finding their way to Japan. Before the prices became inflated and subsequently leveled. I would love to consider myself a "denim hipster'" but I know that I'm still on the coat-tails of the Japanese collectors who appreciated Denim Heritage way before I did!!

Don't worry, Abercrombie will never produce a jean that will rival an authentic 1947 XX (though I think the LVC version is still pretty good!!)

Has anyone checked out www.handsblue.com ? I just found it yesterday.

[Blanc0]

Edited by Blanc0 on May 17, 2005 at 07:45 AM

[rhythmandsound]

what is at all special about zimbabwe cotton relative to u.s. cotton or cotton from anywhere else?

[Guest]

Howdy, folks - I'm new to this forum (which I accidently stumbled across due to my love of scrounging info over the Net about Levi's 501 jeans) but quite interested due to the knowledge that seems apparent on here, about denim in general. One thing I couldn't help but notice is a lot of the jeans references to the (Levi's) LVC line are called reproductions, rather than 'reissues'.

It would seem that as this is actually the same company that produced these original (vintage) jeans way back when, that by bringing them back again would simply be a reissue situation. In my mind, a reproduction is basically a 'copy' of some other company's products. Seems like a big difference to me. Obviously I'd be interested in everyone's take on this.

One other question - does anyone here in the States have a source for the 'older' 501 jeans new-stock? The newer cut that came out around 2003 anniversary isn't my favorite, and I wouldn't mind being able to grab a few more pairs of that 'classic' fit before it is too late (unless it is already!). Any ideas would be appreciated, as my regular special order sources like 'Deco Denim' and the like, move their stock so fast that they are well into the newer lines. Either the pre-shrunk or shrink-to fit models would be peachy...

I guess I miss the lap-felled, inner seams, the slightly higher-on-the-waist feel, and the slimmer thighs; although I do like the slightly wider back pockets. I understand they were loosly modeling the latest design on the 1947 cut (including that inseam treatment) but that fit just hasn't grabbed me.

Thanks for your feedback,

Jim

[denimdestroyedmylife]

welcome to the future, jim!

i guess i never thought about it that way, but i would agree with you, LVCs are surely reissues when it comes to their production of raw versions of, say, 47, 55's, and whatnot. but they DO do some repros; i am thinking of their reproduction of vintage jeans used as tow-ropes, for example.

can you provide a link for "deco denim?"

thanks in advance!

[jcotteri]

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