what kinda selvage is this please ? very different !

[__3xL]

Thanks fellas

[Ratatat]

Wow, i'm astounded, where did you pick that little number up? The infamous baby blue line from the famed (but now forgotten) mills of Yashiro Province, I'd never thought I'd see one again. Hold on to that one, to be sure.

[Cameland]

wow looks pretty wack. broken twill selvedge?

[__3xL]

thanks guys - but I meant it didnt even look like the seam is joined - it appears to be a solid piece of selvage

[__3xL]

anyone else with a clue ?

[pacioli]

There's gotta be some stitchings...do you have more pics?

[cheapmuthafukr]

maybe a felled seam with exposed selvage? give more info man.

[wild_whiskey]

That is not from a shuttle loom. Shuttle denim produces a weave in a twill affect - that weave is more akin to canvas, which is what the ends of a projectile loom denim look like. My guess is that it's the selvage from a wide loom but has been sewn down to look like real selvage.

The current GAP women's skinny jeans have this same effect, but do not have white on the tips.

[cheapmuthafukr]

That is not from a shuttle loom. Shuttle denim produces a weave in a twill affect - that weave is more akin to canvas, which is what the ends of a projectile loom denim look like. My guess is that it's the selvage from a wide loom but has been sewn down to look like real selvage.

The current GAP women's skinny jeans have this same effect, but do not have white on the tips.

ahh... i see a definate twill there... but in response to this you have to look no further than sugarcanes hawaii to see shuttle loom plain weave jeans.

[denimdestroyedmylife]

is that chambray denim? looks like old-timer retirement pants with plastic buttons on the fly, bush-pants style pockets----though vintage. probably very light weight.

[snugglepony]

i think cameland is correct in calling out broken twill.

that said, the selvage matches the rest of the fabric not at all.

i want more pictures.

[wild_whiskey]

ahh... i see a definate twill there... but in response to this you have to look no further than sugarcanes hawaii to see shuttle loom plain weave jeans.

I'm not sure what you mean. Sugarcane Hawaii denim is RHT.

[cheapmuthafukr]

i thought they used two different denims, one for the nat indigo and one for the not nat indigo

[denimdestroyedmylife]

i think i've found the source of all the confusion in THIS post:

Originally Posted by red

welcome back jesus. while your here, can you explain to me why the sc40300 cost 300 dollars, and the sc40105 only cost 200? is it just the bag? same goes with the two hawaiis.

RINGRING:

Totally different fabrics. The cheaper are plain weave. The more expensive ones are twill. Also the 40300 may be constructed differently (I can't recall right now, but there prices seem to reflect the 40400s), like the SC40400 Hawaii's - which are hand felled, rather than made using felling machines. It's a much, much more laborious process.

And then the bag & scarf will add to the retail price.

it sounds like ringring is saying that the natural indigo versions of the satokibi are

twill while the regular indigo versions are a plain weave, but of course, this isn't the case.

when he says the cheaper are plain weave, the more expensive are twill, he's referring to the plain weave okis vs. the twill okis.

[wild_whiskey]

Perhaps there's some confusion on my part?

To me, regular denim weave = RHT = Right hand twill

All denim is twill - that's the main characteristic of the fabric.

[denimdestroyedmylife]

to clear things up:

plain weave is 1x1-----like canvas or a " chambray denim" (common in work shirts)

twill is 2x1 or 3x1------reg denim weave

EDIT: they call chambray a denim, but it isn't because denim is a twill

[denimdestroyedmylife]

All denim is twill - that's the main characteristic of the fabric.

look at these sugarcane okis:

not a twill, yes? can we call it a chambray?

we'd still call them jeans, but not denim jeans, then? denim chambray jeans, i guess. mouthfull.

i would guess this is still made on a shuttle loom, yes? even though the selvage is not a twill?

EDIT: i just reread my posts and it sounds like i'm challenging whiskey. i'm not. i'm trying to learn. i barely understand this stuff.

[andewhall]

Wouldn't that cloth be clasified as broken twill?

[wild_whiskey]

Right, those jeans are not a twill. I suppose it would be called a Chambray, or plain weave.

The term denim by definition comes from the French "serge de nimes," as we all know... Nimes is the place in France that it came from, and the "serge" fabric is actually a twill fabric, so by the most pure definition, those jeans would not really be considered denim, even if they are dyed with indigo and the yarn weight and thickness is similar to SC's other jeans. The definition "jeans" comes from blu di genova, which doesn't reference anything except the color of the dye, and the location in Italy where it was used on sailor uniforms.

Therefore, those jeans are jeans, but they are not made of denim. :slayer:

DDML I hope I don't come off as that touchy =] I really want to learn as well. This is an interesting topic.

And I see that you can have a plain weave fabric from a shuttle loom (didn't know what you were talking about CMF)

[denimdestroyedmylife]

Wouldn't that cloth be clasified as broken twill?

i thought broken-twill had a more pronounced herringbone pattern, yes?

[andewhall]

I guess there is so much talk about twills, left, right, broken you kinda forget about a basic regular weave. At fashion school we used to have tests on different weaves, 2x1, 3x1etc. You dont see that kind of regular weave used for Jeans that often huh. I have loads of denim swatches, heaps of styles, should really take some pics.

[Guest Phrost]

Isn't that weave called crosshatch denim? I've senn that type of weave on a lot of jeans, including Gap and Old Navy. Broken twill has a herringbone pattern, which rarely has selvage (the only brand that I have seen that has selvage broken twill is Rag & Bone)

[wild_whiskey]

Isn't that weave called crosshatch denim? I've senn that type of weave on a lot of jeans, including Gap and Old Navy. Broken twill has a herringbone pattern, which rarely has selvage (the only brand that I have seen that has selvage broken twill is Rag & Bone)

Historically, Wranglers were Broken twill and selvage.

Crosshatch denim refers to the way the warp/weft is varied in weight and thickness. Crosshatch denim is usually 3x1, or sometimes 2x1 twill.

[__3xL]

is that chambray denim? looks like old-timer retirement pants with plastic buttons on the fly, bush-pants style pockets----though vintage. probably very light weight.

I truly believe ddml knows all ..

They're from the 50's / 60's US Navy issue ..

ddml I bow down to your knowledge

[XX]

looks like something rogan would make

[tweeds]

nice catch DDML

[dongeri]

I haven't been here in a while but its great reading another one of those straight knowledge posts. Viva denim and i have to say a little Viva ddml

[annacobra]

Right, those jeans are not a twill. I suppose it would be called a Chambray, or plain weave.

The term denim by definition comes from the French "serge de nimes," as we all know... Nimes is the place in France that it came from, and the "serge" fabric is actually a twill fabric, so by the most pure definition, those jeans would not really be considered denim, even if they are dyed with indigo and the yarn weight and thickness is similar to SC's other jeans. The definition "jeans" comes from blu di genova, which doesn't reference anything except the color of the dye, and the location in Italy where it was used on sailor uniforms.

Therefore, those jeans are jeans, but they are not made of denim. :slayer:

DDML I hope I don't come off as that touchy =] I really want to learn as well. This is an interesting topic.

And I see that you can have a plain weave fabric from a shuttle loom (didn't know what you were talking about CMF)

IMO what makes the difference is that denim s/b with undyed weft and dyed warp yarns. Hence I would call a chambray with this characteristic (among others light yarn quality and weight) denim.