Classical music + fashion update

[mouko]

I figured there might be some classical music listeners here (and maybe some that have no interest in it, which is good) because I wanted to see what everyones opinion is on this subject.

My girlfriend is a classical musician who's been spearheading a project that merges classical music with fashion, with the ultimate goal of changing the way people view classical music and attract new listeners.

Being a fashion designer myself and a non-classical music listener has given me an outside perspective on things. The idea really peaked my interest when I started reading a blog by Greg Sandow, a teacher at julliard and a classical music critic and a project runway/fashion fan that wants to do away with formal wear in the genre. (read more here: http://www.artsjournal.com/sandow/)

http://therapysessions.livejournal.com/229577.html

I recently made a post on my blog about my thoughts: to sum it up. I completely agree with Greg on this matter. That classical musicians need to strip its aristocratic image and be restyled to be more current and assimilate into pop culture. And I've been getting a mixed bag of responses.

What I like about this subject is that I feel it shows the importance of aesthetics, even in something that is primarily about listening. I was wondering what everyones thoughts on this subject is, not only with classical music but anything else that has been retooled or needs retooling aesthetically. Would a change of wardrobe (and most likely venues) revive classical music?

And I know this is the complete fashion side of me speaking, but I'd be way more interested in seeing a performer wearing some margiela or commes..I've been pressuring my gf to get those margiela glasses, but then she'd probably need some sort of backlit sheet music

[coalessence]

good stuff peter,

i think your point is valid and logical...

i would love to design a new look for classical musicians, and perhaps see a new brand of classical music infused with some electro or something...

obviously this would be a terrible thing to some purists...but im all for evolution

and i believe that would certainly create a revival in classical interest...

[ProfMonnitoff]

I don't think this would get Classical music any mainstream attention whatsoever. You would probably just create postmodern (not, but for the lack of a better word) Classical music performances that would appeal to those who are into those types of visuals, and maybe also those who are into Classical music, but just on the musical merit.

[mouko]

I don't think this would get Classical music any mainstream attention whatsoever. You would probably just create postmodern (not, but for the lack of a better word) Classical music performances that would appeal to those who are into those types of visuals, and maybe also those who are into Classical music, but just on the musical merit.

I think the idea IS to create that type of performances, away from the standard types of performances to attract new listeners. Changing the visuals (I focused on the fashion aspect, but I do feel the venues and format of concerts should be restructured too)

It's not getting into the mainstream in the sense of sitting side by side with pop music, but broadening the listeners that haven't been interested in classical music by rebranding its image. (from a high society/elitist music genre to something appealing to the non traditional listeners).

In my new blog post I talk about what classical music can learn from the nintendo wiis business model, which I came to find out is the same as Cirque Du Soleil (something that I think might be more relatable to the subject). CDS rebranded opera and ballet by changing the format it was presented, reaching non-opera and ballet fans as well as those that were already interested. The Wii targeted non-gamers by stripping the idea of video gaming being niche, complicated and only for hardcore gamers.

I think there is something here that classical music can learn and use

[fallen angels]

Would a change of wardrobe (and most likely venues) revive classical music?

probably not, because different people learn to like classical at different ages, for different reasons, but most those reasons revolve around the music (the sounds and feelings) and sometimes the history, not because of what the musicians are wearing.

i think i understand what you're getting at though, your idea to change the fashion in order to change the "image" of classical music, which you think could attract new listeners. because you think the clothes musicians wear now may turn some listeners away, correct? But people will either like the music if it suits their tastes, and not like it if they aren't feeling it. it all comes down to the music. if they arent feelin the music, a wardrobe change wont change the fact that they aren't feeling the music. if they like the music but dislike the formal wear worn by the musicians at concerts, thats not going to stop them from appreciating the music.

i would love to design a new look for classical musicians, and perhaps see a new brand of classical music infused with some electro or something...

almost all kinds of music have already been infused with classical music or classical elements. electro, hiphop, pop, even rock.

[Corbin Law]

this reminds me of some of the stuff the houston symphony has been doing lately although a little more interesting. To combat dwindling audiences at classical music perofrmances, Houston Symphony has been putting on shows such as "Music of the Video Games" and "Symphony plays Led Zeppelin", they make poeple sit through a first act of classical music before showing them the cheezy classical music/infused with something else.

thus far the shows them selves have been pulling in great numbers but there have been very few converts over to mainstream classical music.

[mouko]

probably not, because different people learn to like classical at different ages, for different reasons, but most those reasons revolve around the music (the sounds and feelings) and sometimes the history, not because of what the musicians are wearing.

i think i understand what you're getting at though, your idea to change the fashion in order to change the "image" of classical music, which you think could attract new listeners. because you think the clothes musicians wear now may turn some listeners away, correct? But people will either like the music if it suits their tastes, and not like it if they aren't feeling it.

From what I understand (and I'm by no means an avid classical music listener) is that the old listeners are 'dying off' faster than new listeners. And the problem that many classical music critics say is the image of classical music not bein relatable and current. It's not just with the dress, but the way its presented in general. Simply waiting for new listeners isn't addressing the problem directly, but assuming (dangerously) that the problem will fix itself.

it all comes down to the music. if they arent feelin the music, a wardrobe change wont change the fact that they aren't feeling the music. if they like the music but dislike the formal wear worn by the musicians at concerts, thats not going to stop them from appreciating the music.

I have to disagree with you here. When you look at examples of companies that have rebranded itself to get new customers, you see that essentially the product/service remains the same, but how it's presented and the message it wants to protray has been redesigned. Target's distancing themselves from being a k-mart clone, apple and nintendo Wii stripping electronics of excess to make products more intuitive and accessible, Cirque Du Soleils aesthetic reimagining of opera and ballet. I think this is where classical music should follow suit (no pun intended )

[fallen angels]

this reminds me of some of the stuff the houston symphony has been doing lately although a little more interesting. To combat dwindling audiences at classical music perofrmances, Houston Symphony has been putting on shows such as "Music of the Video Games" and "Symphony plays Led Zeppelin", they make poeple sit through a first act of classical music before showing them the cheezy classical music/infused with something else.

thus far the shows them selves have been pulling in great numbers but there have been very few converts over to mainstream classical music.

this shows that no matter what you do to attract new listeners, if they do not like the fundamentals of the music, they will not stay.

anyway, Muoko, i'm no classical expert either, but i thought we were talking about a genre of music that is based on tradition, not an acrobatics show or the ipod. well then, since you are so fixed on your viewpoint, good luck saving the world of classical music with your girl friend

[mouko]

this shows that no matter what you do to attract new listeners, if they do not like the fundamentals of the music, they will not stay.

anyway, Muoko, i'm no classical expert either, but i thought we were talking about a genre of music that is based on tradition, not an acrobatics show or the ipod. well then, since you are so fixed on your viewpoint, good luck saving the world of classical music with your girl friend

The argument is that tradition is the downfall of classical music and that since you can't change the structure of classical music musically itself (because it becomes something else), the only solution left is how its aesthetically presented. I.E. change the clothes/visuals/design of the presentation.

I think you missed why I brought up CDS, apple and the wii. It's about creating new markets where none exist to expand. Its not about the content of these examples per se, but their business strategy as a theory. I think its something that can be applied to classical music.

[fallen angels]

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[fallen angels]

mouko, i was thinking about this topic and i would also like to see classical music introduced to a newer audience. i love fashion and enjoy classical music as well, and i think it would be cool if performers wore more fashionable (but still appropriate) attire to the concerts. It's an interesting effort, but what i question is the effectiveness of that strategy, considering how it would be marketed and how big of a target audience that would attract.

I agree that it would be great if classical music were to be promoted differently and introduced to a new listeners. so i was thinking, how about making this thread into a "Classical Music Saved My Life" topic? sufu members could post their favorite classical pieces, and maybe mention why they like particular pieces and what feelings they get from the songs. that way, other sufu members who haven't heard the music would be introduced to it and the music would be given a chance to be heard by new listeners.

in a way, it is one approach for moving towards the objective of allowing the music to be heard by new listeners, one community at a time. just a thought!

[readytoignite]

if you wanted to have a thread about classical music (whatever that is) you should probably try to find someone who actually knows something about it.

look at a BAM calendar someday and you'll see all the music / fashion / dance / art fusion permutations you could think of (or be lazy and follow this link: http://www.bam.org/viewdocument.aspx?did=824). this stuff has been going on since the 60s

i suspect when you say "classical music" you're talking about the established western canon from baroque to early 20th century (or music in this tradition). the problem with growing an audience for this is that by and large it requires listeners to spend time gaining appreciation for the various structures and rules associated with it.

there's plenty of composers working from a whole different book broken out by the post-serialists that are doing exactly what coalessence is suggesting. look up osvaldo golijov's ayre for instance.

[mouko]

mouko, i was thinking about this topic and i would also like to see classical music introduced to a newer audience. i love fashion and enjoy classical music as well, and i think it would be cool if performers wore more fashionable (but still appropriate) attire to the concerts. It's an interesting effort, but what i question is the effectiveness of that strategy, considering how it would be marketed and how big of a target audience that would attract.

I agree that it would be great if classical music were to be promoted differently and introduced to a new listeners. so i was thinking, how about making this thread into a "Classical Music Saved My Life" topic? sufu members could post their favorite classical pieces, and maybe mention why they like particular pieces and what feelings they get from the songs. that way, other sufu members who haven't heard the music would be introduced to it and the music would be given a chance to be heard by new listeners.

in a way, it is one approach for moving towards the objective of allowing the music to be heard by new listeners, one community at a time. just a thought!

I think the most interesting thing about this discussion is the comments I've recieved on my blog as well as greg sandow (I recommend you reading it. He's a teacher at julliard and classical music critic whos a fan of project runway and wants to do away with formal wear..http://www.artsjournal.com/sandow/)

Musicians are basically pissed at me (I've gotten some really hateful comments that I had to delete). The most interersting argument is that it shouldn't be about the clothes, but about the music. But I find this argument a little interesting because if it were truly about the music, why is there a desire to keep formalwear to gain respect and resist a change of clothes?

I think the hardest thing for people to grasp and me as well is that I'm looking at this completely from a rebranding perspective. I can't really predict if the idea of an aesthetic change will make a difference but like any business plan it can't be worse that doing nothing.

I was also thinking about what you were saying the other day about people just not liking how it sounds. I found this interesting because I noticed with a lot of my friends they will comment on how good a movie score is, yet not realize that that is essentially the same structure of classical music. I have to admit that I am completely this way too, I mean I don't actively listen to classical music but I bump There will be blood soundtrack and shit from Ang Lee movies without thinking.

[mouko]

if you wanted to have a thread about classical music (whatever that is) you should probably try to find someone who actually knows something about it.

look at a BAM calendar someday and you'll see all the music / fashion / dance / art fusion permutations you could think of (or be lazy and follow this link: http://www.bam.org/viewdocument.aspx?did=824). this stuff has been going on since the 60s

i suspect when you say "classical music" you're talking about the established western canon from baroque to early 20th century (or music in this tradition). the problem with growing an audience for this is that by and large it requires listeners to spend time gaining appreciation for the various structures and rules associated with it.

there's plenty of composers working from a whole different book broken out by the post-serialists that are doing exactly what coalessence is suggesting. look up osvaldo golijov's ayre for instance.

Funny, I just saw steve reich the other week here in new york for the first time. I think the most interesting part is that I was with a bunch of critics and groups and I was discussing my experience (first experience) listening to minimalist music.

My question is why is classical music stuck with the idea that you need to learn and dedicate time to understand its rules and structures and not just outright enjoy it? I'm asking this honestly as a person that never listened to classical music or that style of music before. To me I feel it should be automatic like any other form of music, the nuances and delving deeper into techniques and structures should come after (and in my opinion are completely optional)

I think this is the type of thinking/image of classical music that becomes a turn off.

[fallen angels]

well, i seriously don't know shit about the "rules and structures", but i enjoy it so much, to me it was automatic because i just like good music. but if i learned more about the theory, i would probably appreciate it even more.

you may think that the presumption that one needs to be educated about it is a "turn off" to potential listeners, but i could also see how some people could also argue that learning about the theory/culture/history makes the listening experience more rewarding.

[oceanv1ew]

When I studied music back in high school we'd study classical music and have excursions to symphonies. We weren't exactly fond of it, save for the teacher, though it was the best class I had in high school. Now that I'm no longer studying music/practice my instrument, my understanding of "structure and rules" are non-existent, but I still enjoy listening to classical, or instrumentals from soundtracks, music. I'm a listener, not a critic.

I remember reading an article from some Chinese pianist that when it comes to making a music video for classical music, you just put a piano in a forest. That said classical music is not easily accessible unless you go specifically listen to the classical channel on radio, buy CDs, or go to concerts.

Tradition, as mentioned, is also a problem to why it doesn't reach a broader market. Everyone rooked arike in the symphonies. I also attended PLAY, the video game symphony, and my friend who NEVER listened to classical/instrumental music unless it's mandatory (i.e. in film, video game etc.) actually had a lot of fun and asked me for materials afterwards.

Anyway hope the project will be able to have a show in Sydney if all goes well for you guys. Maybe gimme a free tix/SuFu discount?