Nas V Jay-Z

[juliaN.]

Black album had:

- Allure

- What More Can I Say

- December 4th

- 99 Problems

the rest was pretty eh to me

Kingdom Come:

- 30 Something

- Beach Chair

- Prelude

- Show me what you got

- the 'anything/i made it/hollywood' back to back trio was always dope to me

- Lost Ones

Kingdom Come isn't great by any stretch of the imagination in terms of Jay's ability, but it's a very listenable album. Black Album looked (and still looks) good on paper, has not aged well at all. That stuff like Threat, Moment of Clarity, 1st Song, etc. I cannot bear to listen to any more. Justify my thug was biggest waste of jayz/quik collabo.

Jay-Z's Blueprint often hailed as a classic, but that was where he started going on cruise control in terms of his rapping....his lyricism and overall flow on that shit was lazy as hell, Kanye and JB carried it for him and I guess was a watershed moment in terms of the hip hop production "sound."

In terms of underrated albums, Dynasty was garbage but on a few tracks Jay-Z was a monster, tore that shit to shreds and hasn't matched that kind of performance since - Intro, Squeeze 1st, Soon You'll Understand

[youkinorn2]

we all agree that Ether > Takeover, though, right?

(I voted for jay, though)

[heBAY]

wow Julian...I couldn't disagree more about The Dynasty album. Underrated and overlooked? Yes. Garbage?? Whoever says that must not be/have been a Beans or Freeway fan, and only skimmed through the album, cause both "Where Have You Been?" and "1900 Hustler" are ridiculous (Bink's beat on the latter is fuckin' insane from a producer's stand point...not to mention I haven't met an MC who doesn't love that beat). As was "U Me Him Her" and "Streets Is Talkin"...

Shit, I'll take "Change The Game" purely for its energy over anything that was on American Gangster and Kingdom Come...seriously wasn't a fan of those two (latest) albums.

I truly think there's a weird science to those albums...and the Black ALbum...being that many people on here seem not to like the latter (BA) since it was surrounded by so much fucking hype (the high expectations-disappointment theory)...whilst the two latest, "post-prime" albums that got shitted on by age-old Jay-Z purists (deservedly, IMO... I don't know a soul over 25 who gave a fuck about American Gangster), are felt for whatever deeper reason (the underdog theory).

I just feel like it was a weeeaaak conceptual effort, and more of a poorly executed marketing gimmick (which he, himself, has morphed into)...it really had nothing to do with the movie aside from a couple Frank Lucas references. No grown person wants to hear New Jersey Nets/Beyonce/Euro/Def Jam Prez Jay go back to the streets and talk about his coke dealing days again...nor do I care about his current life of hanging out with divas and switching bubble vests with Kanye.

I'll take the BP2 over those joints. Sorry. That's my underdog album of his...aside from Vol. 1.

Heard he came off on the "Brooklyn Go Hard" shit...haven't peeped it yet...but my mans gave me some quotes over the phone yesterday. I just think the old guy needs to stop trying nowadays...I say he's not relevant and you ask "well then how is Ghostface or Kool G Rap?"...and I'll say those guys are still writing with a good amount of fuel for it...they're still hungry cause they never owned anything like the late-90's/2000's Hip Hop world...Jay-Z ran that shit and I was happy that he did for the most part. I don't blame him for not being able to keep my attention 9 out of 10 attempts...just wish he'd acknowledge the fact that he's purely corporate before he becomes that old man in jeans 4 sizes too big...lkhgalkehlkehsatse

blah whatever... still say Jay-Z over Nas.

[heBAY]

and definitely "Takeover" over "Ether"...for reasons I stated many many months ago in this thread. WHy is this even still a valid discussion? People will never fully agree on this... and it is 2009...

As I've said before, State Prop vs. D-Block was the best thing to come out of that battle.

[playdisonlyatnight]

pete rock remix for the black album

i think the more relevant thread is the dj premier vs j dilla vs pete rock vs RZA thread

slick rick vs. ice cube

[soap]

Haha...weezy should not be in this convo.

I will base mine on this, whoever does more beyonce collabo's loses.

Jay-Z-->100

NaSty-->0

NaS wins.

In all seriousness though, they both WERE good rappers. NaS is ok now, Jay sucks. American Gangster fucking sucked, so did Kingdom come.

Songs with Coldplay??? Jay Z has lost his fucking mind in my opinion and his skills. I won't say NaS is great, and I am a big fan of reasonable doubt and Blueprint, but Jay is shit now. Also illmatic was better than reasonable doubt, and Lost Tapes was better than anything Jay put out after Blueprint.

NaS's late CD's have been shit, in the end I would say that since J has fallen off harder...NaS wins.

Oh and Dynasty album was pretty shit other than a couple songs...I'll give it up to Sigel tho

[PQRS7]

not an expert on black music

but I never liked jay

maybe couple tracks here and there, but when I think about it, it's the beat / production that I liked

he just seems like such a phony

it's like the only reason he gets attention is because people insist that he should

show me tracks for why you like him

edit: fuck if you like little wayne, don't fucking talk to me

i beat the shit out you hard til you a shamed to be a nigger

[heBAY]

wow.

wow.

wow.

wow.

[yachtrock89]

I don't know how anyone could prefer Reasonable Doubt to Illmatic. You're talking about an album with "Feelin it" and "Ain't no Nigga" on it. There isn't a bad track on Illmatic.

[yachtrock89]

Here's how I look at it upon further inspection:

Debut Album

Illmatic vs. Reasonable Doubt

Winner: Illmatic

Relative "comeback album"

Blueprint vs. Stillmatic

Winner: Blueprint

Decent Recent material:

Black album and American Gangster vs. God's Son, Street's Disciple, Hip Hop is dead, and Untitled

Winner: Nasty

[heBAY]

You aren't really doing well to compare those two albums...they're from two different eras of Hip Hop.

You are not going to leave unmarked, when around cats who were actively listening/experiencing the music/culture, saying '93/'94 (Illmatic) was the same shit as '96 (Reasonable Doubt). Cats who were active/old enough to be listening and experiencing the culture, esp. in NYC, at the time know the deal. Hip Hop was still this rugged, relatively pure, art form (not the huge industry that it soon became a few years later, esp. by the very late-90's)...we had just popped out of the West COast/Death Row Gangsta Rap explosion (which was the cash cow at the time) and had this resurgence of a newly refined, less funked out (post-'92) local sound...the best examples being the singles by Wu Tang and Black Moon (to name two of the heaviest, alongside Nas). It wasn't about clubs until Ready To Die came out with "smoother" singles like "Big Poppa" (even "Juicy"...both offering blatant sampling of past hit singles)...seriously...Puff/Bad Boy/MCA was the force that redefined the "single".

Weird side note, I just realized that many of the albums I would classify as the classic clump of '93-'94 came out in '94. '93, right now at least, was a bit dry (although the 3-4 albums that come to my head immediately were the biggest shit since sliced bread). But look at the next year, Organized Konfusion, O.C., Gangstarr, Artifacts, Jeru, Smif n Wessun, Method Man's solo, Redman, Gravediggaz, Boogiemonsters, Biggie, etc.

By '96, the Bad Boy shit was in full effect, the trends had changed and being rugged and hard wasn't the main priority anymore...money off of singles was definitely the focus (shit, even Mic Geronimo signed to Bad Boy and did that shitty "club banger" with Heather Hunter in the video, "Nothin' Move But The MOney"...look at OC's 2nd album which had the incredible Primo-produced "My World" peaking everyone's interests, yet almost a year later it drops boasting a video to the joint with Yvette Michelle singing, while on a beach with a silky button up...not a shiny suit, but not the street shit we were used to). You still had some ruggedness left, Mobb Deep, Tragedy Khadafi/CNN were just starting to get a buzz, Wu was still around, as was the Boot Camp's Fab-5 projects...it goes without saying that I think Reasonable Doubt is a landmark album of that year/mid-90's era...it has joints for every occasion, especially nice in the whip.

[heBAY]

To get back to the original topic of this post (less reminiscing), people simply have to realize that you cannot expect to draw precise comparison just because you're bringing up each MC's debut album. You must take the era into consideration.

To stay on the 3 year era thing (93-96)...let's do '85-'88. LL Cool J's battle rhyme heavy "Radio", as great as it is, is way more suitable to go against some early Run DMC material (although LL would easily win due to his sheer ferocity in those days)...than even considering it to hold a candle to Big Daddy Kane's "Long Live The Kane". Both debuts were amazing for the respective years, but Hip Hop had simply changed...those who were able to progress with it (Beastie Boys, LL Cool J, Slick Rick, G Rap, KRS, etc.) stayed around while other more one trick pony type acts like the Fat Boys fell by the wayside.

You're more correct to compare It Was Written to Reasonable Doubt...both came out in the same year and both had almost the same number of tracks (unlike Illmatic's barely-passed-an-EP status of 9 songs and 1 Intro...aka less room for filler, the best thing anyone could do for a debut album). I love both of those albums...but find myself skipping certain joints if I'm not in the mood (sign of the times I guess).

Ironically, it was Nas who ended up hooking up with Foxy Brown (one of the only flaws of Reasonable Doubt)...

[yachtrock89]

I didn't even imply they were of the same era. I was just saying that I think Illmatic is a stronger debut album.

[heBAY]

okay we know you think that...but how can you even compare the two is what I'm saying...

Yes it has become acceptable to do such nonsensical things because they are arguably two of New York's heavyweight soloists who came out in the '90's...but the 90's was a VERY transitional period in Hip Hop (most genres I can think of actually). The comparison idea obviously came to life as "cool to do" when they had their "beef"...but really, there's no sense in that. It's just straight up personal opinion at that point...so even saying "yeah I like Reasonable Doubt better than Illmatic as far as debut albums go" is strictly on you and why would anyone waste time arguing who's got the better personal opinion. My thing is questioning the lack of rationale in making such comparisons...yeah I'm saying I've the better personal logic (in my usual style of quiet arrogance).

Would you compare Raekwon's Only Built 4 Cuban Linx to Kool G Rap's Road To The Riches? True, they are both debut albums and of the same crime/street hustler going mafia tales subgenre...but it would literally be simple minded to put the two on the same playing field. One's from '95 while the other is from '89. Though that's a more extreme example than '93 versus '96, and maybe not the BEST due to the constant stream of cameos by Ghost and the rest (making it sound less like a solo album), you can still begin to do the math on it and take it from there.

Furthermore, this proves why I never posted much on all of the old hip hop boards cause they hosted many of these never ending argue-one's-opinion type threads. I hate this one especially simply because you're going to be like "nah I don't care...that's just what I think...Nas is that dude" and then I'ma say "fuck your thoughts because you either are A. just spewing empty shit to post something at all...or B. you did not read/understand what I had previously posted...which either way, does not contribute to a healthy discussion" ...or just "fuck your thoughts"...

and so on ...and so on...

[heBAY]

you sound like you know what your talking about

point me in the right direction

which tracks specifically would you tell me to look at to demonstrate JZ at his best - preferably something as contrasting as possible to his current state

and if I'm not mistaken, you would also agree that post blueprint is no good?

To answer in reverse order, no, there is plenty of Post-Blueprint Jay-Z that is excellent. I liked the Blueprint 2 and the BLack ALbum...although I can understand why some would steer away from the two (the first being an overwhelming listen at 2 CD's and the hype revolving around the latter was ridiculous...but what did you expect...it was supposed to be his LAST album ever and he was Jay-Z).

For prime Jay-Z material? I'd say simply pick up Reasonable Doubt...and listen to it all first. There may be 1-2 songs that don't appeal to you ("Ain't No Nigga" being the only one I can think of right now)...but that whole album is the opposite of what he's kind of become nowadays (it was almost 13 years ago). It still has some "suit rap"...not shiney suits...but definitely mob hats and gator shoes...but it was done with finesse and SUBSTANCE much like Kool G Rap's Al Capone'esque stylings, post-Road To The Riches.

I love that album...but if I had to just go with a "greatest 15 minutes of Reasonable Doubt"...I'd choose:

-"D'Evils"

-"Can I Live"

-"22 Two's"

-"Dead Presidents II" or "Friend Or Foe"

-"Bring It On" or "Politics As Usual"

Yeah a little more than 15 mins.

Other joints I'd advise you to check out is:

"In My Lifetime" (the original version if you can find it...there's a video for it)

Off of In My Lifetime, Vol. 1:

-"Where I'm From"

-"Streets Is Watching"

-"Intro/A Million And One Questions"

-"Friend Or Foe 2"

-"You Must Love Me"

I generally don't recommend Vol. 2 to anyone due to the large shift to keyboard beats...although I think that album is chock full of JOINTS...

Vol. 3:

-"Dope Man"

-"Come And Get Me"

-"NYMP"

-"Hova Song Intro" and "Outro"

-"So Ghetto", "It's Hot", "Snoopy Track"

One of my favorites to recommend since most people slept on it...but the good songs are fuckin' ill...you're smoking if you disagree. The Dynasty Roc La Familia:

-"Intro"

-"Streets Is Talkin'"

-"This Can't Be Life"

-"Where Have You Been"

-"Squeeze 1st"

-"Stick 2 The Script"

-"1900 Hustler", "Soon You'll Understand", "You Me Him Her"

Yeah I really think that album is ridiculous...hence the issues with trying to choose "only a few" tracks...

Enjoy.

[juliaN.]

yeah hip hop boards were fuckin retarded as far as constructive hip-hop "discussion" went...

[juliaN.]

btw for overall biggest forgotten gem in Jay's catalogue IMO it's Vol. 3

he was coming off the Vol. 2 success and could've easily had a 'sophomore slump' in the sense of trying to follow a smash with another smash. Didn't have as many anthemic songs as its predecessor, and a few missteps, but I think that was the last time he was rhyming in a really hungry manner for most of an album. The "Hova Song" series is ridiculous, dude was just angry and cocky as fuck, definitely the pinnacle of his 'fuck you pay me' mentality before they actually really started paying him out the ass for a lotta shit and he lost that 'fuck you.'

HeBay going back to your assessment of Dynasty, there were more good stuff even outside of Jay on that album than I remembered, you're right. "Me You Him Her" has a really sick beat.

[soap]

The rapping on you me him her was sick too...I like how they cut amilion's shit raps down to like 15 seconds. They should have just made the song you me him...

[heBAY]

btw for overall biggest forgotten gem in Jay's catalogue IMO it's Vol. 3

he was coming off the Vol. 2 success and could've easily had a 'sophomore slump' in the sense of trying to follow a smash with another smash. Didn't have as many anthemic songs as its predecessor, and a few missteps, but I think that was the last time he was rhyming in a really hungry manner for most of an album. The "Hova Song" series is ridiculous, dude was just angry and cocky as fuck, definitely the pinnacle of his 'fuck you pay me' mentality before they actually really started paying him out the ass for a lotta shit and he lost that 'fuck you.'

HeBay going back to your assessment of Dynasty, there were more good stuff even outside of Jay on that album than I remembered, you're right. "Me You Him Her" has a really sick beat.

Indeed about the Dynasty...I'm glad you re-checked it out. Just Blaze was indeed ridiculous on that album (that's actually where I started to pay close attention to him...then realized he did stuff for Pun and Tragedy Khadafi before that...think orchestral keyboard style beats). The intro to that album I think is the most ridiculous of the Jay-Z intros...but then again, I feel that way when I hear the beat change on "A Million And One Questions".

True about Vol. 3. That actually was the next Jay-Z album I bought after Reasonable Doubt. I sorta fell out the Jigga loop for a moment, was all into the real underground stuff (before it went to "backpacker/white wash university" rap). I was really into Timb's production at the time and was blown away by a little preview I got...Hova Song, It's Hot, So Ghetto, NYMP, etc. Even the bonus track that was "Jigga My Nigga" I thought he destroyed lyrically...clever as fuck. Definitely some misses on there...due to corny production...but overall, he was something else lyrically.