Nas V Jay-Z

[Guest DUM]

every forum needs this argument at some point, and since it doesn't look like it's happened yet...

[ExileOnMainSt]

tough to say at this point. You can't just say Ether was better than Takeover because it was only one song, in the many diss songs they made about each other. Yeah Ether was better than Takeover, but Nas made a bunch of other horrible ones, and Jay-z made a couple other decent ones.

Nas also put out a couple downright awful CDs: Nastradamus, Streets Disciple I didnt even bothering listening to Hip Hop is dead but it can't be better than American Gangster.

Also, doesn't Nas work for Jay-z now?

JAY WON.

[bonanz]

I never understood why so many people think ether>takeover

[Guest DUM]

Technically, I think Hip Hop Is Dead is supposed to be compared with Kingdom Come, which sucked. Nigger will be compared to American Gangster.

[Guest DUM]

haha

Nas & Jay-Z Subliminal Shots In Black Republican

[jeepster]

well, obviously they had beef, and that was their real vs, but as rappers, their game & flow come from completely different ends of the spectrum. Nas seems to have much more of a intuitive rhyme scheme as well as the ability to keep himself out of ruts. jay-z returns to a lot of his different little tricks and patterns of delivering lines, and doesn't seem to stray much from the formula. as rappers, their both very good, but i'm always gonna go with Nas if i had to pick. jay-z has just become too much of a cliche of himself.

[ExileOnMainSt]

Technically, I think Hip Hop Is Dead is supposed to be compared with Kingdom Come, which sucked. Nigger will be compared to American Gangster.

sorry yea thats right.

In my books: Reasonable Doubt > Illmatic (not by alot, objectionable)

In my lifetime < It was written

Hard knock life > I Am

Life and Times > Nastradamus

The Blueprint < Stillmatic (not by alot, objectionable)

The Blueprint 2 > God's Son

The Black Album > Streets Disciple

Kingdom Come > Hip Hop is Dead (not by alot, objectionable)

American Gangster - Nigger??

Thats Jay-z - 6, Nas -2, I know Blueprint 2 is more comparable to Streets Disciple, which Jay still wins, and black album is comparable to stillmatic, which i feel jay-z would win too.

Nas did The Firm which was better than most of his CDs, and the QB Album, Jay-z had those horrible R Kelly collabos.

I still feel Jays consistency and the way he handled himself over the years wins the battle, Nas's image of a poet kind of got annoying at times, and the way he sang that song on God's Son about his mother (although it was for personal reasons) was wack as fuck and unneccessary.

Whos the best MCS - biggie jay-z and nas.

[Gouf]

This is ridiculous.

Jay-z stole his style as well as lines from numerous rappers he was surrounded with. Heres the most blatent ones:

Biggie (especially once he died)

Pac (Pac absolutely detested Jay)

Nas

Eminem (he still fucking steals styles and lines from him to this day)

Even Lupe "full of shit" fiasco.

How are you going to even insinuate "take over" was anything close to Ether? Thats ridiculous.

Nas developed a style that continues to evolve while Jay simply applies whats popular today to whatever run of the mill album he's making.

Nas' albums are solid and continue to stand the test of time while Jay's album continue to age poorly (i.e. black album).

illmatic > reasonable doubt (and WITHOUT any famous guest appearances)

Jay-z is part of the reason why rap is in the unstable state it is in today. Comparing each artist's album head to head, Nas has the better lyrically and creatively. Jay-Z is simply the most successful mainstream radio rapper and that lameass AG album proves it.

[Gouf]

Kingdom Come > Hip Hop is Dead (not by alot, objectionable)

.

Excuse me, sir, but in my opinion, you are full of shit.

[bonanz]

^i'd say life and times and nastradamus cancel each other out lol

[Guest DUM]

lupe? what?

and I like the 'references' jay does. everyone in rap does it, alot.

LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME

[Gouf]

No, dum, not "everyone" in rap does it. How many times do you have to reference somebody elses' rhymes? One song? Two songs? Three songs seems alot. But nearly every fucking album jay-z has put out has had someone elses bombass lyrics scribbled over and peddled to unsuspecting listeners like he thought it up. Lil wayne atleast verbally gives props to eminem, but Jay just rides coattails.

I think the worst casualty to Jay-z plagerism was Big L.

[bonanz]

gouf, when you are saying ether>takeover, what are you basing it on... I'm not arguing I'm just asking.

ether may be more "lyrical" i guess, but to me, takeover made a bigger impression and seemed to make a bigger impact...ether just seemed kinda angry and not controlled and reaching at some points with the dick sucking lips and rockerfeller died of aids shit...I wasn't really impressed

[Guest DUM]

it's all about Super Ugly for me.

[bonanz]

^lol, I view that like I view ether, just angry...not in control, unappealing...I like those smooth don status disses, like jay getting at game on the kingdom come intro

[Gouf]

Nas defended against and actively countered every shot Jay made at him in take over. The difference was that Jay-z did a common schoolhouse tactic of making up lies in order to emberass his opponent, Nas on the other hand used actually truth... something that jay-z was forced to admit and even conceded defeat from Nas when addressing Lil wayne's shots at himself saying, "Nigga, I learned from Ether..."

If you want an even detailed rundown, Ether won on lyrical content, punchlines, shit talking, and better/harderhitting overall beat. If anything take over seems halfassed compared to Ether. Jay even had to make a follow up on his BP2 to try to save face.

[Guest DUM]

hm, I like anger most of the time, game was appropriate he's a joke. But with nas it was a fight.

what I meant is like...in rap you can't cover someone's song, that would not turn out well. so when you wanna give props you use a known line of their's, flip it some at times. alot of the times, I don't see a problem with it.

[Gouf]

honestly, dude, saying you don't like ether because you feel its angry is like saying you dont like "hit em up" cause pac seems like he's too mad at biggie.

[Gouf]

hm, I like anger most of the time, game was appropriate he's a joke. But with nas it was a fight.

what I meant is like...in rap you can't cover someone's song, that would not turn out well. so when you wanna give props you use a known line of their's, flip it some at times. alot of the times, I don't see a problem with it.

Problem with that is, if you cover someone's song in rock or some other musical outlet people usally know who the original artist is. Rap fans, by mass, are largely ignorant to the contents of most artist's albums other than their preferred favorite. When you have someone like jay-z spitting eminem lines.. especially some of the most venomous verses, those kids attribute that wit to Jay. Jay knows what he's doing, have a very sharp person.

You can, infact, cover someone else's song in rap. Usually its done by rapping over said person's beat, but putting you're own unique flow over it. Many times its called a remix, but Jay-z jocks flows far too often for someone who considers themself the "best rapper alive"

[bonanz]

no, hit em up was aggressive, not angry to me, when I say angry I mean like butthurt/embarrassed

also, I think maybe jay saying bigs (or anyone's) lines mainly bothers younger fans who don't realize how the "homage biting" goes on...I don't think you give fans enough credit if you think you have to spell out when you're quoting someone...just because it goes over kids heads and they quote it from a secondary source isn't any fault of the artist

[ExileOnMainSt]

Goof -> I will give it to you, you represent the traditional Nas advocate, who is inherently wrong.

I can sit here and argue my point till im blue in the face, but Jay-z is better. Rappers "steal" from other rappers all the time. 2pac stole the idea of Me and My Girlfriend from Nas's I Gave You Power. Jay-z addresses this simply: you made it a hot line - i made it a hot song. Im not a biter im a writer for myself and others, I say a big verse im only biggin up my brother, biggin up my borough Im big enough to do it.

Hes not lying.

Jay-z ripped Nas apart so badly in Super Ugly that his own mother had to tell him she didn't want him to officially release it. Ether was a better song, but in a battle if Nas spit ether acapalla and Jay-z spit Super Ugly, Nas would have cried.

[bonanz]

I also just listened to takeover again, i don't understand where jay-z lied about nas.

The most potent part of takeover is where he broke down nas' whole career up to that point, which at the time, in a nutshell was true...till your bodyguard's oochie wally verse is better than yours...come on...that shit stopped the presses

and talking about how he sampled the dead president line and made it a hot song, but nas was talking about it like he got paid off it, but MC serch put nas on...

[Gouf]

Look, i've stated the facts and how I see them. To me, Nas is superior to Jay-z. Jay is the one who wanted Nas to join def jam and worked with SONY to get him out of his contract. Nas is a good representation of the natural direction rap should have evolved, while Jay represents what looking at rap as a businessman creates.. Even Beans said that he felt Jay wanted him to change his style in order to sell more records.

How are you going to say Nas was butthurt? All he did was fire back at the person who shot at him. I would be just as pissed off as Nas if someone arbitrarily attacked my character especially involving my line of work and tried to cut off how I eat and feed my family.

Homage or not, there is no reason to quote living rapper numerous times in multiple albums without leeching off some of that fire created by the rapper it originated from. Jay is simply positioning himself with the talent in order to boost mass opinion about his own.

[brightbill]

Looking at the top albums of either of 'em...

1. Illmatic

2. Reasonable Doubt

3. Stillmatic

4. Blueprint

5. God's Son

6. Hip Hop Is Dead

7. American Gangster

8. Street's Disciple (if it got the Blueprint 2.1 treatment and was pared down, 5/5)

9. It Was Written

10. Blueprint 2

To me, it's simple - Nas makes better music overall. Before, during and after his beef with Jay.

[bonanz]

lol, takeover didn't come out of nowhere, it was in response to a nas freestyle where he was talking sneak greasy and jay took it mainstream at summer jam with the ask nas he don't want it with hov... and then dropped the kill verse on the album

i don't really care, but nas stans see what they want, it's weird...

[Gouf]

Goof -> I will give it to you, you represent the traditional Nas advocate, who is inherently wrong.

Jay-z ripped Nas apart so badly in Super Ugly that his own mother had to tell him she didn't want him to officially release it. Ether was a better song, but in a battle if Nas spit ether acapalla and Jay-z spit Super Ugly, Nas would have cried.

You represent the dime a dozen Jay-Z fan, unquestionable acceptance to a man whom simply manipulates the truth to earn an extra dollar. If you're ok with hearing someone else's lines coming out of one of your favorite rappers mouths every album in multiple songs sometimes within stanzas, then fine. No biggie. But after the first seven or eight times it gets on my nerves. I guess thats just me. Note that, however, by the time jay-z acknowledged his rhyme recycling he had already been doing it for over half a decade. He was big enough at the time to do it, but not when he was doing it initially.

What was Nas' response to superugly? Oh yea he didn't make an official one because it was never released, therefore Jay-z gets the "last laugh" because he supposedly made this Nas killer, but never released it because his mom told him not to. How convenient.

I also just listened to takeover again, i don't understand where jay-z lied about nas.

The most potent part of takeover is where he broke down nas' whole career up to that point, which at the time, in a nutshell was true...till your bodyguard's oochie wally verse is better than yours...come on...that shit stopped the presses

and talking about how he sampled the dead president line and made it a hot song, but nas was talking about it like he got paid off it, but MC serch put nas on...

a) if you're trying to get your man signed, why would you lyrically murder him on a club track like oochie wally? Where's the logic in that if you're trying to get this guy off of eating the scraps on you're plate? Nas made NY state of mind, what does he have to prove on a track full of his own people? Braveheart was the showcase of that song, it wasn't supposed to be Nas in the first place.

KRS ONE already made an album called blueprint first.

c) Here's another line that stopped the presses, "You no mustache havin', with whiskers like a rat compared to Beans, you're wack." (which was largely agreed at the time) Oh and here's another one, "Went from jaz to hangin with Cane, to Irv, to Big. Eminem murdered you on you're own shit"

All Jay-z does is position himself with the talent and the current popular vote of the time. Jay is the perfect example of a mainstream rapper while Nas continues to grow as a Hiphop artist.

[Guest DUM]

nas fans are always definitely more die-hard and "fuck jay-z".

I didn't like streets disciple, but I did like Black Album.

[Gouf]

^I suppose. However, I am not saying, "fuck jay-z." He can do what he wants, he's a grownass man. He makes music that alot of people like to listen to as they go about their days. However Jay-z doesn't exactly show any allegiance to his "fanbase." Jay's fanbase is, presumably, anyone that listens to rap as he stated he is the "best rapper alive." Therefore he will make songs that people whom have been listening to him since reasonable doubt may or may not enjoy.

Jay-z fans are a dime a dozen and do not influence the music he creates while Nas makes consistently creative music as an artist not a hustler. You'll find that the majority of Jay-z fan's are not the most eclectic bunch while die hard Nas fan's are rarely not diverse in their own music selection. (I'm not saying, however, that people who like Jay-z can't be eclectic, i'm saying that most arn't in comparison to people who favor Nas.)

Jay-z continues to commercialize, Nas continues to put out creative albums. Plain and simple.

[bonanz]

i still don't see where jay-z lied on nas in takeover...

gouf with that logic, nas shoudl have just wrote a list of points on why he didn't like jay-z...the most factual and lengthy list will win yay hip hop (john D. rockerfeller did not die of aids...GO)

to me and I think to most non-internet thugs, hip hop battles are about punchlines and delivery, with a touch of truth...i mean if you took what you bolded and put it in a rap cleverly, i might like it...em did murder him on his song (possibly a horse-esque marketing strategy????...nah, I'm not gonna reach)

dame daddy dame diddy dame dummy....LOL zomgz he called dame dash a dummy!

where can I read the study on nas diehards v. jay-z die hards and their other music interests?

[ktothe]

Nas is a better rapper, but Jay puts out better albums.

Thats all I have to say about that. I cant choose between the two...

EDIT: Oh and Nas came harder on Ether, thats unarguable. Was it as vicious as the Takeover, no. Not even close, but it was the perfect mix of flow, and beat. I like Ether much more than The Takeover but I still think The Takeover is a better dis track. The live version is much better than the studio version, too. I also appreciate Jay causing some heat just because he thought the game needed it. Good looks on that...