Is cashmere losing it's credibility?

[Louche]

Ok. I was trying to update myself on cashmere, but when I found myself reading scientific reports on nucleus herd breeding schemes for cashmere goats and quantitative genetics...that was when I just gave up and decided to turn to Superfuture.

We've all noticed that there has been an increasing amount of supermarkets and high-street chains offering 100% cashmere sweaters at prices as low as $50 in the last few years. There has, as long as I can remember, always been problems with mislabeling and fake cashmere - but this is not the part of the problem that I am addressing. I'm talking about the actual 100% cashmere sweaters being sold for a fraction of what luxury brands are charging. When lowering the prices and buying in bulk, you will also be growing the market - but even when taking these types of factors into consideration, I can't justify the price difference.

Today I heard another theory; that the aggressive breeding of cashmere goats in certain parts of the world has caused the price of cashmere from certain regions to drop significantly. And that the general appreciation for cashmere will deteriorate in the matter of few years, forcing high-end brands to move on to other luxury fabrics.

But what is 100% cashmere? The romantic verison tells a tale about the Phashm goat (Capra Hircus Laniger), happily residing in the mountains and deserts of the high plateaus of the Central and East Asian steppe where the climate has made for the most ideal insulation material you can think of. But the cashmere goat is apparently more a term than a breed, describing any breed of goat (except Angora) that produce a non-medullated downy inner coat at 14-18,5 microns (about 1/7 as thick as human hair). Thus, there are "cashmere goats" being bred in places such as Australia, Turkey, Scotland and Texas. All great places, but not exactly with the same climate as the Tibetan plateau, and I can hardly understand that cashmere from goats raised in these climates can compete with the quality of Phashm goats living in inner Mongolia.

60-70% of the cashmere in the world comes from China, and one can argue that Chinese cashmere has been regarded as the finest available. But since 2005, when we saw the final stages of the ten-year plan to end the WTO Multifibre Agreement (MFA), that imposed stringent restrictions on imports, the market suddenly opened - the opportunities of enormous profit on cashmere breeding has changed the Chinese cashmere industry. In the last few years there has been an explosive increase in the amount of cashmere goat breeders in China, and the breeding has been much more effective and aggressive in terms of goats being hurdled and kept like cows. Something that over time surely must damage the quality of cashmere - but who cares as long as one can label it 100% cashmere?

My thoughts are that if you buy cashmere for a price that seems too cheap...you are either not getting the product you think you are buying, or you are on ethically unsolid ground. However, these are only my views and I am in no way an authority on cashmere production, so I hope for somebody to shed some more light on this issue. :confused:

[djrajio]

Is cashmere lossing its credibility? I don't consider it is. But has cashmere lost its ability to command a price premium? Yes. I think this largely the direct result of greater efficient markets and price competition and technology (as you mentioned). I don't think this is generally a bad thing though because it gives even the lowest tier consumer the opportunity to buy and generally pushes innovation in the industry. I think I read an article about how Prada and some other labels have been very aggressive in their ability to create new and interesting fabric because of how horizontally stratified industry players both from the high end (Italy, Paris) and the low end (China, emerging markets) have become. Quality from China is improving and in no less than 10-15 years, the stigma we used to associate with Japanese products and now revere will also echo with China. I think the general price compression of garment fabric will only accelerate and aid innovation in the industry (including cashmere) and will force labels to put more effort in their products rather than merely replying on their name brand, reputation, etc.

[onemancult]

....i tried to touch upon the issue, but i just kept re-reading raj-yos response over and over.

what he said.

[peteyross]

Here's an interesting (but not all that in depth) Wall St. Journal article about high-end vs low-end cashmere :

the link doesn't require a subscription:

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB119629923865107298.html?mod=blog

[James Vincent]

My thoughts are that if you buy cashmere for a price that seems too cheap...you are either not getting the product you think you are buying, or you are on ethically unsolid ground.

I'm interested in looking into the the animal welfare conditions behind the cheap cashmere production. It's obvious by the volume of cashmere on the market at high street retailers that the scale of cashmere farming has grown exponentially and I'd like to know how they're managing it.

I work in the leather, skins, hides, wool and fur industry in Australia and I would say a lot of cashmere in Australia goes uncollected simply due to high labour costs.

[cmykhustla]

I see cashmere much in the same way I look at selvage denim or leather. Walmart sells 100% real leather shoes, but obviously the quality is inferior. same with denim, gap and uniqlo sell selvage denim for $80 but its often much different than a $500 japanese pair. For every textile there is going to be a continuum of quality and certain buzzwords are used for marketing purposes. Something being made with cashmere, whether it is cheap or not, gives the consumer a sense of luxury. So in the same sense that selvage is no longer a definite sign of quality, I agree that a lower priced item made of cashmere today is probably not the same cashmere that you would have had in the past.

[headcoat]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003498352_cashmere282.html

The cashmere industry in China is causing environmental havoc, creating deserts in its wake and dust storms that reach North America.

I really hope Chinese standards go up soon, all I ever hear from there is bad bad news. All those cheap goods made in massive scales come at a price.

[djrajio]

Wow headcoat. Great article. It's amazing how China's pursuit of low cost manufacturing it affecting their environment.

[jet]

This is no different than cheap vs expensive wool.

[eastcoastrider27]

Stephen Colbert had someone on his show a few months ago who talked about the dust storms caused by cashmere overproduction.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003498352_cashmere282.html

The cashmere industry in China is causing environmental havoc, creating deserts in its wake and dust storms that reach North America.

I really hope Chinese standards go up soon, all I ever hear from there is bad bad news. All those cheap goods made in massive scales come at a price.

[Ahlvahroe]

2 years ago i bought a cashmere sweater at sears for $7, it was soft as hell, but fits weird so its almost never worn.

[xcoldricex]

man those dust storms were brutal. i got stuck in a few in china - fucking yellow haze.

My thoughts are that if you buy cashmere for a price that seems too cheap...you are either not getting the product you think you are buying, or you are on ethically unsolid ground.

i don't think it's that simple. how does the consumer know the overpriced jil sander cashmere is actually coming from a different source and not china? remember that zimbabwe cotton denim thread? that's also on "ethically unsolid ground" yet it remains expensive. conflict diamonds? still expensive.

[duofold]

Gonna have to turn to vicuña for next level fiber...no way, at least for awhile, that this shit will turn up in walmart.

[jet]

Also use your head, handle the products. If you can't feel or notice a difference in an italian knit cashmere by a reputable designer and a uniqulo cashmere sweater you can safely deduce that you're a fucking moron and you should climb back under your rock.

[xcoldricex]

Also use your head, handle the products. If you can't feel or notice a difference in an italian knit cashmere by a reputable designer and a uniqulo cashmere sweater you can safely deduce that you're a fucking moron and you should climb back under your rock.

60-70% of the cashmere in the world comes from China, and one can argue that Chinese cashmere has been regarded as the finest available

it's still coming from china. just because it was "italian knit" doesn't mean it's not from china. plus i have a strong feeling that a large majority of clothing is made in china - shipped to italy to have "made in italy" tags sewn on them.

[xcoldricex]

i guess my feelings are not unfounded.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/23/opinion/23thomas.html

or made in italy by chinese people

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,435703-3,00.html

[djrajio]

i guess my feelings are not unfounded.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/23/opinion/23thomas.html

or made in italy by chinese people

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,435703-3,00.html

Yeah prada group and gucci group have been doing this for years...

[Louche]

Thanks to everybody for the replies and great links.

i don't think it's that simple. how does the consumer know the overpriced jil sander cashmere is actually coming from a different source and not china? remember that zimbabwe cotton denim thread? that's also on "ethically unsolid ground" yet it remains expensive. conflict diamonds? still expensive.

Yes, I actually had the Zimbabwe cotton thread in mind when I decided to post the entry yesterday. I learned a lot by the Zimbabwe post, and I find the social and environmental aspects of fashion scary - but very interesting. It's just such a shame that 99% of people don't give a flying shit about consequences...

I must say that I agree that it is practically impossible for a consumer to know the source of cashmere from any given brand. And to be frank I'd have to say that I at times have a hard time classifying the quality of a certain fabric, be it supima or cashmere or something else, just by merely touching the fabric. Yes, there are certainly times when a quality feels extremely soft and luxurious, but can I really trust that this is of top quality? I certainly don't know how it will age, or how it will feel feel after a year. And it is even more impossible to know if the product has been made in an acceptable social and environmental manner. And this makes it all too easy for people and corporations to get away with cutting a lot of corners.

I guess what I find sad is that the conception I had of 100% cashmere automatically meaning quality is proving to be false, and it makes it all the more difficult to actually be sure that what I'm buying is the real deal. Why can't things ever be easy...?

Djrajio, thanks for pointing out a possible positive effect of the way the cashmere market has evolved.

[onemancult]

provenance is becoming more and more important in a world where luxury labels can get away with manufacturing 99 percent of an article of clothing in china and then finishing the item in italy or where ever.... or, similarly, the factory town in china that legally changed its name to USA for labelling purposes.

supply chains get mixed, deals get struck.... a uniqlo sweater may, in the end, be more honest than a jil sander.

[headcoat]

or, similarly, the factory town in china that legally changed its name to USA for labelling purposes.

hahaha, is there an online link to this story?

[macuser3of5]

Cashmere is a kind of wool, nothing terribly special at the outset. There is plenty of cheap cashmere (even recycled, how weak), plenty of expensive wool, and so on. I've never really gotten caught up in the cashmere crazy, I'd rather go mohair or angora.

[jet]

supply chains get mixed, deals get struck.... a uniqlo sweater may, in the end, be more honest than a jil sander.

Yes.

Bottom line, do no buy jil sander.

[peteyross]

Yes.

Bottom line, do no buy jil sander.

Word. I've never handled more expensive items that belong in the GAP. Their cashmere outerwear is questionable at best. The only thing they've got working for them these days is their Lattanzi made shoes (which they overcharge for but at least they are well made).

[macuser3of5]

Word. I've never handled more expensive items that belong in the GAP. Their cashmere outerwear is questionable at best. The only thing they've got working for them these days is their Lattanzi made shoes (which they overcharge for but at least they are well made).

Yep, don't buy Jil Sander. Not even on steep discount. Pass it right on by. Especially garments in a size 48 or 46. Definitely skip those.

[jet]

Yep, don't buy Jil Sander. Not even on steep discount. Pass it right on by. Especially garments in a size 48 or 46. Definitely skip those.

I heard everything in sizes 50 and 52 must be avoided at all costs as well.

[onemancult]

i agree with jet.

everyone stop buying jil sander. even on sale. dont touch any of it. thank you.

[peteyross]

There's a crapload of Jil Sander on sale at Barney's as of last night. Unfortunately, I don't feel the same way about Jil Sander as you guys.

[jet]

Um the whole store is on sale.

Besides, Barney's jil buy was mostly crap but do pass on 46, 48, 50, and 52s if you happen to stumble onto anything nice (not that you would because the entire line is awful since that rafe simonz guy took over).

[Vitamian]

Buy Mohair.