ethnicity vs. garment

[Guest jmatsu]

i don't know if this belongs here, so humor me servo.

ever notice how certain garments/entire ensembles can look horrid on a certain ethnicity while looking great or decent on another (i'm not referring to race)?

i really can't put my finger on it or elaborate specifically. it's probably the stereotypes and formulated connotations in the back of my head, but i can't shake them. it's like certain ethnicities protrude a certain (desireable) aesthetic or vibe effortlessly while others (that often have the same physical proportions and clothing) give off a contrived stigma.

alot of people may question as to who one can tell the differences between ethinicities of the same race. i can't really explain it, but i've travelled/seen enough to think i that i can usually make the distinction. esp in the cases of most asians and caucasion europeans vs caucasion north americans.

[derdankhund]

I think this phenomenon is directly related to the way our minds form and begin to understand the world. We learn from experiential categorization; we see our parents sitting in chairs, are ourselves placed in chairs, and eventually recognize a chair for what it is, be it leather or wood, black or brown, etc. This is a very widely applied tendency in that most of us attempt to categorize the new that occurs to us in the present based upon similarities from our past experience set.

How do these ramblings apply specifically to the fact that certain looks seem paired with certain ethnicities? It is a fact that certain brands, styles, and sub-cultures are most popular with a given ethnicity or culture. Thus, the largest percentage of people with whom you come into contact exemplifying a given look, style, or aesthetic could be reasonably expected to be from the ethnicity that principally favors such a look. (Granted, if you live in Scandinavia or a similar region, the number of white people sporting hip-hop clothing is probably disproportionately high compared to black people, simply due to realities of population composition).

Therefore, if your mind has primarily seen a certain ethnicity embodying a certain style, it will naturally exhibit dissonance when a different ethnicity assumes that same style. For an exaggerated example, if you had only seen and sat in identical chairs of stainless steel from your birth to age fifteen, your mind would probably be blown by seeing one made of wood, and even moreso by a leather recliner. I'm aware this isn't entirely analogous but it emphasizes part of why you feel the way you do.

This categorization of things based on aesthetic similarities to elements of our experience set is at the heart of racial profiling, and other such racial judgments. Is it in itself bad or pernicious? No...but it is a tendency of which we should be well aware, for it is when this feeling is coupled with a fear of the different, the unknown, or the unexperienced that it leads to judgments (categorizations) based in racism, xenophobia, or prejudice.

[justinbaily21]

Very good post on what I was about to write.

When I first read jmatsu's post, my first thought was somehting along the lines of, "Yeah, black people look great in urban wear, etc, but white people look terrible in it. What gives?" On second thought, I think that everybody looks terrible in that type of clothing. In my opinion, all people look the best in this same sort-of like tasteful style. This is independant of the person's ethnicity. Maybe certain color and body-type issues come into play that I am not really considering, but I think that just about everybody looks best in a lot of the same things.

You're picking up on certain styles fitting different ethnicities in your mind based on your understanding of their culture and general fashion. When you see something that doesn't jar with your traditional experiences, it seems odd.

[Guest jmatsu]

what you've just said is accurate.

it seems as if i can't take certain garments on certain ethnicities too seriously at times.

for example chinese or korean (i'm talking about the westernized next generations) kids wearing streetwear /fashion and the like. there was a scarcity of western culture influences in their countries up unitl recently. i just felt for the longest time that they were merely emulating the japanese. i may be biased because of my heritage, but even before ww2 japan has always been fond of western sensibilities/culture and have had a pretty long history of import (and export) expenditure. i would tend to think thatthe major european metropolises of significant fashion lineage produce generations of "fashionable" (as compared liberally to that of other aryan run nations) people who have a certain swagger culturally ingrained within them. so is this aesthetic/swagger learnable, or is it culturally inherited (because of environment, upbringing, etc)?

it's as if certain labels, styling methology, etc are ways of life in certain places (obviously we could apply this to other commodities as well).

[GiZMO]

I don't see anything wrong in assuming that other parts of Asia (KR/CN) are emulating Japanese youth's aesthetic. Japan (Tokyo) is one of the fashion capitals of the world, so it'd have a heavy influence on that part of the hemisphere. Also consider economy. I don't know how long other countries have been top powers of the world but Japan has always been one of the best economies meaning they could afford top brand names.

When you refer to the swagger of a certain ethnicity, I see what you're saying when things happen to look indifferent on say, a Japanese teen than say a kid in inland China, We're able to make certain connotations like the former would seem to be an OG of such an aesthetic just because of the history of the cultures.

help my grammar

[DJ2xTech]

Wow...great reads. Very interesting topic, I wonder how others feel about this.

I'd +rep all of you if I could.

it seems as if i can't take certain garments on certain ethnicities too seriously at times.

I sometimes think like this...I don't know how to explain but sometimes an outfit on one person of a specific race just doesn't look right, while the same exact outfit on another person of another race does.

Thinking about a post I got flak for in supertrash about a guy who's wdywt fit made him look like he was trying too hard...I guess if I saw some asian fob with spikey hair wearing it like that, I'd just see him as dressing like a ordinary fob.

[Pandemonium]

a large deal comes out of how we percieve the person who is wearing the clothes to be as an individual and also, the message that the clothes conveys in terms of conditioning and previous experience..

for example, our perception of a white guy in hip hop clothing is that they're 'trying to be black' and that contradicts our previous conditioning to who wears hip hop clothing, thus ugly/bad fit. on the other hand, if we see a black guy in hip hop clothing, it's dismissable - the average person wouldn't even think twice about accusing him - in fact, you could even call him a 'realist nigger'.

of course, some clothes are already integrated into society as a sort of mainstream. take for example... formal clothes.

if a white person wore formal clothes, you wouldn't percieve anything - much of the population wears formal clothes - from blue collar workers attending a formal event to the richer populations.

if a black person wore formal clothes, you wouldn't percieve anything either.

it's the same for all the other subcultures as well - trendy fags, emos... those really badly dressed persian guys who stack up on the jewellery and go crazy with gel - it's all just a matter of previous conditioning in comparison to the current stimulus.

[herpsky]

ralph lauren only works for white men

[Guest jmatsu]

I don't see anything wrong in assuming that other parts of Asia (KR/CN) are emulating Japanese youth's aesthetic. Japan (Tokyo) is one of the fashion capitals of the world, so it'd have a heavy influence on that part of the hemisphere. Also consider economy. I don't know how long other countries have been top powers of the world but Japan has always been one of the best economies meaning they could afford top brand names.

When you refer to the swagger of a certain ethnicity, I see what you're saying when things happen to look indifferent on say, a Japanese teen than say a kid in inland China, We're able to make certain connotations like the former would seem to be an OG of such an aesthetic just because of the history of the cultures.

help my grammar

i hope people aren't taking what i've said the wrong way. i'm not saying there is anything wrong with other asian nations emmulating or glorifying modern japan's styling sensibilites, but is it dignified? should and can this be taken seriously ? is the timing/cycle rsound? obviously i am liberally generalizing about the other asian nations, but i am genuinely and specifically interested in the japanese sphere of influence. obviously the japanese nation opened their ports/mediums of trade with the outside way before they got bombed (it was the occupation of america after the bomb that solidified the western influence).

if you travel to europe and look hard enough, you'll realize the subtle difference in dress and aesthetic (and europe's a fucking connected continent). maybe i haven't seen enough media in other asian countries or haven't spent enough time there, but shit just looks like tokyo of 5 years ago...3 for the more progressive of emulators. i'm sure there's a number of talented and innovative asian designers, but why don't they get more coverage or love in their native markets?

[isoform]

You're picking up on certain styles fitting different ethnicities in your mind based on your understanding of their culture and general fashion. When you see something that doesn't jar with your traditional experiences, it seems odd.

i think its assumptions of lived experience and how well ppl can imitate.

if street wear knock offs is what some poor inner city white, brown, or asian person grew up wif they'd look more legitimate wearing that stuff. and then there are the suburban middle class ppl who can maybe fake it really well, but lots who can't... and so on.

again it prolly has to do with if a person is dressing true to themselves versus their ethnicity.

[justinbaily21]

Pandemonium brings up a good point. For a moment, let's go beyond 'ethnicity vs. clothing," and expand it in the same vain, but from a different perspective. I have read a few posts on this forum asking for opinions on some extremely tacky clothes (like jeans with wild tears, crystals and Marylin Monroe prints all over them) which were rightfully attacked. These obvious critisisms were qualified with phrases like, "Of course, unless your gay. If that's the case, they look great." Comments like these still confuse me. To me, if something is ugly, then it always possesses that quality, regardless of the person wearing them (assuming that the fit is okay).

Is it something about the way that these sub-culutres present themselves, or is it based on a stereotype of what they usually wear?

[Guest jmatsu]

Is it something about the way that these sub-culutres present themselves, or is it based on a stereotype of what they usually wear?

you may have pinpointed it...

is the "swagger" (sub)culturally ingrained? if it is not, can it be learned, improved, and done by someone who is not of the origin's environment?

not to limit the boundaries of self-styling, but too me, shit seems more acceptable if uncontrived and dignified.

[derdankhund]

This whole notion of an outside culture creating a stereotypical image is very interesting to me. I went to a high school in a rural part of the Midwest US, an area not known for its liberal or cosmopolitan nature. The high school I attended had one black kid (adopted), a couple asians (also adopted), and a token latino (whose parents "shamefully" lived in the trailer park outside of city limits). As I matured, I felt a burgeoning of interests that were labeled (at least in my limited environs), as stereotypically gay. I was interested in fashion and found myself drawn to electronic music. Given that the bulk of signals I received (for the most part from people I generally respected and liked) said that an interest in clothing or dance music was wholeheartedly gay, I faced an identity crisis for several years until I figured out that being gay was solely related to whether I wanted to insert my penis in women, men, or both. Thus, I am well aware of the creation of a stereotype that certainly hasn't been created by the group it labels (although as I type this, I begin to wonder if any "stereotype" has ever been created by a group that it inaccurately labels). I am sure a good portion of the most knowledgeable (in terms of fashion) posters on superfuture are as straight as can be, and would probably resent any assertion relating their interest in clothing and aesthetic expression as being patently homosexual. Again, it gets back to this tendency to associate what one sees with what one has previously experienced, coupled with a hostility towards the new or the different...

EDIT: to anyone who cares, this was my 666th post...just noticed

[GiZMO]

EDIT: Shit... working on my post. For a place holder, nice 666th post, derdankhund

How good something looks can be based on the subculture where it was derived as well as the individual wearing the clothes.

But all of this collides when it comes to certain perspectives. derdankhund gave an example of an upbringing in an area without much diversity. From my experiences, places like these have smaller tolerance for anything that deviates from the norm, thus resulting in using misinformed terms such as 'gay'. It boils down to immaturity.

jmatsu, you're Japanese right? I'm not and haven't experience the culture myself but I do recall that most of the culture has actually been borrowed from others and adopted into itself. There are not many things that originate from Japan. Now this interests me that a country that has been influenced from many other countries (be it clothing, food, etc) impacts others. A simple answer to that is that Japan just has done it right. When they borrowed ideas and traditions they put their own take on it and "perfected" it for lack of a better term.

I can't see innovative and fresh ideas coming to fashion from cultural perspectives. It has been hundreds of years and ideas just run out. Unless they are integrating what is unique to their culture but this brings us back to the idea of clothing looking better on a certain ethnicity.

A situation where a style meshes with a different ethnicity of people is hip-hop in Japan. Hip-hop originated in the states by young innercity black people. I haven't witnessed it first hand but I have heard that the scene is fairly large in Japan. In the free Milspex thread [sorry], herp made a comment about seeing well-done street wear in Tokyo. Some people may think that this opinion isn't good enough coming from someone not from the typical/origin of hip-hop, but many black rappers from the U.S. have travelled to JP and have made comments regarding how big the hip-hop culture is over there.

[Pandemonium]

^ in fact, most rappers are endorsing japanese products.

dare i say it - evisu, bape, red monkey... bbc?

[Fookums]

While the thread has been going in the direction of preconcieved notions being the main factor in the correlation between ethnicity and fashion, I do think it has partially to do with race.

Different races have different builds (though there are always exceptions) and that really dictates what they can, and cannot wear depending on what fits them. For example, asians on average are a slimmer build than other races (from experience), thus it would be natural to assume that asians can pull off slimmer clothes better than say a caucasian with a larger body structure. Conversely, the reason why streetware (also from experience) for the most part looks strange on asians is because the typically larger sizing looks awkward on a smaller asian frame.

However, there are always exceptions to this rule depending on body type, and how the person is able to dress themselves.

[wEstSidE]

have you guys heard this "krispy" song? i think it speaks a lot more than the opinions in this thread.

[Fuuma]

I'll try to contribute something meaningful later but right now I just want to say that Indians with long hair dressed in black leather and silver jewellery (think Carpe Diem and al.) would totally rule while Asians of all ethnicities wearing all French fashion outfits usually (think 99.9% of the time) look ridiculous and kinda awkward.

[Guest jmatsu]

EDIT:

jmatsu, you're Japanese right? I'm not and haven't experience the culture myself but I do recall that most of the culture has actually been borrowed from others and adopted into itself. There are not many things that originate from Japan. Now this interests me that a country that has been influenced from many other countries (be it clothing, food, etc) impacts others. A simple answer to that is that Japan just has done it right. When they borrowed ideas and traditions they put their own take on it and "perfected" it for lack of a better term.

I can't see innovative and fresh ideas coming to fashion from cultural perspectives. It has been hundreds of years and ideas just run out. Unless they are integrating what is unique to their culture but this brings us back to the idea of clothing looking better on a certain ethnicity.

A situation where a style meshes with a different ethnicity of people is hip-hop in Japan. Hip-hop originated in the states by young innercity black people. I haven't witnessed it first hand but I have heard that the scene is fairly large in Japan. In the free Milspex thread [sorry], herp made a comment about seeing well-done street wear in Tokyo. Some people may think that this opinion isn't good enough coming from someone not from the typical/origin of hip-hop, but many black rappers from the U.S. have travelled to JP and have made comments regarding how big the hip-hop culture is over there.

i don't necessarily think that the japanese did it right with a preconcieved notion. i think they were the 1st asian nation in a position to do it "right." their integration of the new into the old was the key factor. this integration was possible because of japan's historical hardships. i'm kind of straying off topic, but what if the atomic bomb /occupation had been in china??

another thought i had about the subject was that japan has it's own native designers/fashion houses that are celebrated internationally. other asian nations have been becoming more internationally aware/mechanized/educated for the last 10 years. has there been innovation in their fields of design? what about their homegrown labels? i haven't been to hk, china, etc. in ages, but why the influx of japanese boutiques for the past 5 or so years? i'll see an origianl asian line in the media from time to time, but i fail to see the innovation or original marketing ideas. maybe i haven't researched enough, but with little research the even individual of minimal fashion interest catches glimpses of the japanese fashion empire.

i'm not trying to say that japan is superior, i am just alittle perplexed as to why the other nations don't seem to have the drive to create something they can call their own without riding the coattails of other countries.

and if i am ignorant of the fact, why is shit not moving? so again, were the japanese just in a position to best utilize the integration of cutlures, so is it something in their culture that better allow(ed)s them to accomplish this?

i can't comment about hiphop in japan, because i like you, am not familiar with enough with the subculture. i mean it's a genre of music. and if music is universal...

[Guest jmatsu]

I'll try to contribute something meaningful later but right now I just want to say that Indians with long hair dressed in black leather and silver jewellery (think Carpe Diem and al.) would totally rule while Asians of all ethnicities wearing all French fashion outfits usually (think 99.9% of the time) look ridiculous and kinda awkward.

while this imagery sounds very chic, i doubt that this would ever come to pass. liberally speaking i think that the native tribes are living it up in their government funded casinos with their firewater. it seems as if genocide did not influence their nation in the dramatic way it did japan's. does this tell us something about the two different cultures?

[wEstSidE]

i'd hardly compare the two cultures or countries...

[Analog]

...another thought i had about the subject was that japan has it's own native designers/fashion houses that are celebrated internationally. other asian nations have been becoming more internationally aware/mechanized/educated for the last 10 years. has there been innovation in their fields of design? what about their homegrown labels?

This extends beyond Fashion design. For example, post-WWII, Japanese architects have been internationally recognized and have been quite influential. Cinema as well, where countries like Korea have lagged far behind until recently. Product design, industrial design...

[Guest jmatsu]

This extends beyond Fashion design. For example, post-WWII, Japanese architects have been internationally recognized and have been quite influential. Cinema as well, where countries like Korea have lagged far behind until recently. Product design, industrial design...

yeah i agree, but why? is this a cultural phenomenon or was it due to ww2?

[Analog]

With respect to the "big" cultural linchpins eg. Architecture, Literature, Art etc. I think it was/is a cultural phenomenon/shift that arose as a result of Hiroshima/Nagasaki. Far bigger brains than mine have studied this; my humble opinion is that there was an unprecedented need/motive/push to react/heal/create as a result of that unprecedented event.

A tremendous need to respond; to give answer to something that could not be answered.

I would say the Japanese tendency to assimilate/redefine comes from a certain hunger to define/identify an identity in the post-atomic bomb era, and the intense introspection that resulted from that. There was a kind of contraction (internalization, introspection, examination), followed by remarkable expansion (production, creativity)

But this is just speculation on my part...

[Guest jmatsu]

With respect to the "big" cultural linchpins eg. Architecture, Literature, Art etc. I think it was/is a cultural phenomenon/shift that arose as a result of Hiroshima/Nagasaki. Far bigger brains than mine have studied this; my humble opinion is that there was an unprecedented need/motive/push to react/heal/create as a result of that unprecedented event.

A tremendous need to respond to something that could have no response, no answer.

I would say the Japanese tendency to assimilate/redefine comes from a certain hunger to define/identify an identity in the post-atomic bomb era, and the intense introspection that resulted from that.

But this is just speculation on my part...

agreed, basically what i implied earlier...

[Fuuma]

while this imagery sounds very chic, i doubt that this would ever come to pass. liberally speaking i think that the native tribes are living it up in their government funded casinos with their firewater. it seems as if genocide did not influence their nation in the dramatic way it did japan's. does this tell us something about the two different cultures?

Not in itself because all things aside from the factor we would like to isolate (whatever it is) are less than equal, which is why comparative social studies are very hard to conduct using pseudo-scientific analysis. A fine exemple would be that american indians were isolated and assimilation was often successfully attempted on their own turf, so to speak, while the Japanese were a strong, united, homogenous people that were under a foreign power (not local) rule for a relatively short period.

[Guest jmatsu]

. A fine exemple would be that american indians were isolated and assimilation was often successfully attempted on their own turf, so to speak, while the Japanese were a strong, united, homogenous people that were under a foreign power (not local) rule for a relatively short period.

this is pretty fun. i'd like to ask what tribe of native americans do you imagine would be the most fashionable or most fashion acute? i don't really follow the "assimilation was often successfully attempted on their own turf..." i'm not trying to be condescending, but assimilation in terms of what? if they "attempted" to assimilate and were successful some of the time on their turf... what does it mean if they were unsuccessful in the attempt?

the u.s. occupied japan and bascially set up policy thru a short-termed puppet government. some of that policy still remains. there is still a symbiotic existence. is hong kong not relatively similar?? people may argue that the occupation of jp by the u.s. was short term, but the u.s. totally has way more influence over jp then the british gov over hk.

[Fuuma]

this is pretty fun. i'd like to ask what tribe of native americans do you imagine would be the most fashionable or most fashion acute? i don't really follow the "assimilation was often successfully attempted on their own turf..." i'm not trying to be condescending, but assimilation in terms of what? if they "attempted" to assimilate and were successful some of the time on their turf... what does it mean if they were unsuccessful in the attempt?

Here are two very common forms of assimilation:

Biological: the relatively small numbers of remaining American Indians means that their genes are diluted, through interracial couplings in the enormous European gene pool of the American nation. That’s pretty final and means that no cultural artifacts remain on an individual level although they may infiltrate the collective psyche, physical characteristics may also resurface in some families through atavism.

Cultural: Dude is living among the whites and starts to adopt their lifestyle, his kids don’t even learn the language and in a few generations they marry whites and the culture is gone

Reserves are actually an artificial way to attempt to stop the tide of assimilation which shows some interest groups in the USA are concerned about the situation. It could be said that native culture is dying and that there are very few ways to stop it.

An example of an unsuccessful assimilation attempt would be the people who were sent, often against their will, to catholic school and then still decided to learn their language and tradition and pass them on to their kids.

I’m not trying to take a stand on this by the way and I hope my observations are seen as having no Manichean connotations, as none are intended, especially on an organic and mainly unplanned phenomenon such as this.

the u.s. occupied japan and bascially set up policy thru a short-termed puppet government. some of that policy still remains. there is still a symbiotic existence. is hong kong not relatively similar?? people may argue that the occupation of jp by the u.s. was short term, but the u.s. totally has way more influence over jp then the british gov over hk.

The US also set a temporary government in France and other countries, although it was shorter lived and less stringent in its policies. I would agree that it had and still has a very strong influence in Japan but you have to understand that this was a conflict between two foreign nations and not a cultural/racial war where two cultures competed for the same territory.

[Fuuma]

This extends beyond Fashion design. For example, post-WWII, Japanese architects have been internationally recognized and have been quite influential. Cinema as well, where countries like Korea have lagged far behind until recently. Product design, industrial design...

I would say that while the bomb has had a very strong influence, the national humiliation and quick change of central message (from authoritarian imperialism to economical development above all else) also had a very strong impact.

[Guest jmatsu]

The US also set a temporary government in France and other countries, although it was shorter lived and less stringent in its policies. I would agree that it had and still has a very strong influence in Japan but you have to understand that this was a conflict between two foreign nations and not a cultural/racial war where two cultures competed for the same territory.

i feel that the u.s. is totally imperialistic. as far as the biological assimiliation goes your statements are sound, but i do think that if the u.s. could have, and given the opportunity they would/would have wanted to absorb japan, just like they did guam. they couldn't. i don't have great knowledge of native indians/guam, but i assume that because of geographics and population vs. poulation that biological assimilation (forced or not) was simpler or maybe even inevitable. so getting back to my main inquiry, i wouldl ike to focus on japan vs. other prominent asian nations.

the u.s. occupation of jp can somewhat be compared to that of other nations' (though i don't think it's occupation by the u.s. can be applied to the u.s.'s occupation of nations of ayran origin. the social connotations just aren't the same and seemingly don't have the same effects) occupations, but what i want to compare (now) are the historical factors that propelled jp into what it is recently. is it all circumstance? could this fate have befallen another random asian country if history had been different?

thanks.