Selvage, set the record straight.

[juxtaposed]

people here always talk about shuttle looms vs. projectile looms. that is basically understood by most denim fans. shuttle looms produce denim we like for several reasons better, ok so far.

but what about hand-operated looms? thus no machines, but hand looms, i mean those they used hundreds of years ago to make all kinds of textiles, rags etc.

michiko koshinos yen jeans has in their red denim line (japanese line) a special handwoven and handcrafted line called ryukyu shoai jeans. they use these ancient hand looms, zimbabwe cotton, ringspun yarn,

and natural rope indigo dying ca. 25-30 dips (indigo made of strubilanthes cusia plant,using awamori (japanese liquor) and honey for fermentation),

then they are sewed and hemmed by handcraft in bingo/ japan, using ''union special'' sewing machines.(some really old US models, i guess)

since this production process is even more complicated and time consuming than producing usual selvage denim, they only make betwen 20 - 30 pairs of those jeans a year.

(at least thats what i read on their web site)

i assume price ranges are unaffordable. i think maybe some japanese denim psychos order every piece, that they basically dont ever come out on the market. but thats just an assumption.

what do the denim nerds here think on that one? are those jeans comparable to normal selvage denim or is that way out there? or are they just not worth mentioning, maybe handwoven denim is only crap? cause of all the twists and shrinks in the denim.(which for me is a benefit, but maybe its exagerrated, and not wearable any more). i have no clue ??!

who can shed some light?

[superslim]

"For mass production mills, I still think the difference between the two is minimal when using the same ingredients. (and as always, there are plenty of examples of gorgeous slubby wide-loom denims, that if you mixed them with random swatches of selvage denims, you'd be hard pressed to pick between what loom made what."

You are totally right RR however the difference then becomes which is more authentic. The narrow ancient loom or small loom naturally producing inconsistancies and character or a wide loom specifically manipulated to produce slubs? All you have to do is throw in a different yarn every so often and you've got yourself an inconsistency. Also, slubs can be forcefully created. It's all about technique for that. Maybe you would like to look up info on the waeving process of fabrics. It's really interesting. I'll look for some names of the books I have read that mention it.

For me the difference between the two is key. One is authentic and the other is created. Both are respected. I mean it takes skill to create inconsistencies and slubs, like art. But I like the authentic bit better.

XOXO

[urban sprawl]

i agree w/ superslim. i assume we all agree on that... trying to be more authentic...but how true can you be nowadays?

i feel that we need to look forward by knowing the past. dont get me wrong, i love vintage to death. but sometimes i find myself wondering/wandering why reproduce 100% (slubs, certain details, etc ), why rub-off exactly (like real mccoy, rrl, etc)? certainly, there's this great appreciation of the old-school, the imperfect, the wabi, the naivite (eames, air jordan 1, selvedge, vinyl), and then there're all this repro because it sells.

sorry. just thinking loud and maybe playin devil's advocate...;p

anyways...

ringring, you know what is funny? people at the mills tell me how easy their lives are nowadays since it's the TREND of vintage/imperfect denim - meaning less rejection from qc...

also i wanted to point out that the shuttle is much slower hence stronger than the jet looms.

and these perfect faults mills create by using emsler is a mystery to me too... sorry guys, but the weather here sucks. it rains and is cold.....

[urban sprawl]

juxtapose,

thx for giving your insight of michiko. very interesting.

dont want to be an a$$ but this seems to me more like a PR thing (same as gap using a new technology of weaving called left-hand-twill)

- the shuttlelooms i know of are all hand-operated. i dont know if there are any newer shuttle looms. from good sources i hear that shuttle looms arent manufactured anymore (paul: do you knw when it stopped? but then wild whiskey mentioned there's some hk ones?...doubts'p

- almost all denim (incl mass products) are (in a way) handcrafted. if you use potasium pragmagenet, you spray it on. if you sandblast it, you use a gun. obvioulsy if you sand, you get all dusty... even if you use laser, you need to use the mouse!))

- handlooms are so narrow that you might only weave your coinpocket...

- most good quality denim are ropedyed and have ring at warp/weft. the cotton from zimbabwe is good but there are better ones (eg: pima). again, prps did good marketing! the fact that as you said it is natural indigo makes the difference. this is the creme de la creme! this is the most time consuming part (dyeing process and if it's washed the wet process, since the indigo penetrates the fibres so strongly). alternatively to liquor and honey, they use coal or urine for fermentation.

i think they're worth mentioning. thx.

i would love to see the pair. i love it when the leg twists. nowadays, they dont anymore because of sanforizing (non-shrinkage) and skewing (non-twist). unless you get the engineered or rogan.

i even love it when they dont singe it!;PPPP

i only know of 3 brands who have natural indigo: 45rpm, studio d'artisan, kato.

does anyone know some more?

Edited by urban sprawl on May 25, 2005 at 08:12 AM

[skecr8r]

Real indigo: Nudie also.

HongKong based Penny Label are one of the very few companies today producing shuttle looms. http://www.pennylabel.com/

Denim Fanatismé.

The Arc - Hitting the selvage from August 1st 2005.

PASHION - The pasion for fashion. Denmark - soon.

Wish'a'knew.

[juxtaposed]

nudies RR veggie indigo

besides that i dont think that thats just a PR trick. you can check it out in their web-site.

why shouldnt it be possible to weave denim on hand-looms?

people in the middle east weave all kinds of textiles on them for thousands of years..

all those persian rags are woven that way..i dont think they are too narrow for a pair of jeans..

somewhere there was a thread where they talked about shuttle looms which are currently produced in japan. i dont remember the name any more, but i would say that they are still made. but thats not the point.

all i was asking: assuming those handwoven jeans exist. would this denim be superiour to selvage denim made by shuttle looms? since these would be woven by hand (hand loom) , not by a machine (shutle loom).

thats what i meant with handcrafted.

i know that most of the processes need handwork (sewing, washing), but i didnt mean that stuff. i meant the weaving itself.

[Geowu]

If you take the speed of the hand-weaving process as a possible advantage, like happens to that Japanese brand of shirts (??rpm), I think they ARE better. Don't know if that's due to the tension, the compacity, etc.

I thought PRPS use natural dyed denim. They say they do. Many, if not most high-end Japanese brands use natural dyed denim too, like Samurai. There are lots of such brands.

Obviously, the most hand-made something is, the most quality control it has, so those Yen denims should be THE TOP in terms of denim quality.

[Geowu]

nevermind, posted twice.

Edited by Geowu on May 25, 2005 at 09:28 AM

[urban sprawl]

i went on the site of pennylabel and saw that they do only labels? do they weave denim?

and the nudie one, how do you guys know that they are natural indigo?

juxtapose,

i went to their site and cldnt find the dtls. only some pics of their collection. can you show me where it says they use handlooms?

what i meant by pr trick is sayin "handcrafted"and all the terms you were calling out is just a gimmick. warum bist du so launisch? since michiko is not so well known for premium denim i'm just being careful.

you can weave on handlooms if you have 3 yrs leadtime. you were asking i was tryin to answer. it didnt occur to me that you were ONLY asking about the weaving process. sorry for taking your time.

assuming those handwoven jeans exist. would this denim be superiour to selvage denim made by shuttle looms?

i dont know about superior. in terms of quality or aesthetic? i assume that the construction and the weave will be less strong but imagine that it will have beautiful slubs and balls and all the other irregularities. but for sure it's superior in terms of commitment (time, money).

[juxtaposed]

ich bin ueberhaupt nicht launisch. i just sometimes have difficulties in making my point clear..

thats why i try to explain so that everybody can understand what i am trying to say.

http://www.yenjeans.net/englishred/index.html

thats the link. click the craftmen work button on the right side, then a link to ryukyu handwoven shoai jeans pops up.

[juxtaposed]

no sweat in here though.

what does 3 yrs leadtime mean?

as far as understood it, they have 2 lines ..one is orange - italian.(made by licensees, quality maybe not that high, more a fashion line)

one is red - japanese. i would say this is evisu kinda premium. so, not bad..

[ringring]

You are totally right RR however the difference then becomes which is more authentic. The narrow ancient loom or small loom naturally producing inconsistancies and character or a wide loom specifically manipulated to produce slubs? All you have to do is throw in a different yarn every so often and you've got yourself an inconsistency. Also, slubs can be forcefully created. It's all about technique for that. Maybe you would like to look up info on the waeving process of fabrics. It's really interesting. I'll look for some names of the books I have read that mention it.

Personally, I think the word "Authentic" is one of the most abused words in the fashion vocabulary. One upon a time shuttle looms were cutting edge technology, now they are historically significant steps in the history of denim. The denim looms of today will be tomorrow's historic artifacts. Historical reproduction is interesting, but personally I don't find it's value any higher than science, technology and invention.

Thanks in advance for the book recommendations. I must obviously sound ignorant about weaving?

i feel that we need to look forward by knowing the past. dont get me wrong, i love vintage to death. but sometimes i find myself wondering/wandering why reproduce 100% (slubs, certain details, etc ), why rub-off exactly

I agree with you.

ringring, you know what is funny? people at the mills tell me how easy their lives are nowadays since it's the TREND of vintage/imperfect denim - meaning less rejection from qc...

LOL. We're united on that one too, my fellow denimnerd.

i only know of 3 brands who have natural indigo: 45rpm, studio d'artisan, kato.

Off the top of my head, Howies, Indigo Farm, Samurai, Kohzo.

HongKong based Penny Label are one of the very few companies today producing shuttle looms.

Those, as Urban Sprawl pointed out are for woven labels.

Edited by ringring on May 25, 2005 at 01:10 PM

[urban sprawl]

juxatposed,

gut dass du nicht launisch bist...;P

well, i went to the site and i have to say that i loved the info. i'm not a fan of yen but after checking the site i'm very intrigued...i wanna see those handwoven ones! if the details are cool i wanna get them! i know that take5 in hk carries a lot of yen.

ringring,

any sites of these: Howies, Indigo Farm, Samurai, Kohzo? little bit lazy to google them.

skecr8r,

contacted pennylabel: they only weave labels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you're funny.

[skecr8r]

It isn't my fault they show on a "shuttle loom hong kong" search, now is it ? And why am I funny :<

Howies: http://www.howies.co.uk/truthster.php

Samurai: http://www.samurai-j.com/

Kohzo: http://www.kohzo.ch/philosophy.html

Denim Fanatismé. The Arc, 2005. Lee151Z Clear Pocket - Wish'a'knew.

[psyiko]

im seeing more and more fake selvedge jeans, not really fake i suppose but trying to imitate selvedge by folding down the seam part. besides looking for the chainstitch, is there any other way to tell if jeans are selvedge? thanks.

[wild_whiskey]

psyiko.. if you've seen real selvage, spotting "fake selvage" should be easy as pie. It's incredibly obvious when the seam hasn't been finished

[psyiko]

sorry if it wasnt clear, i meant if you were to see someone walking down the street could you tell if his jeans were selvedge just by looking at the outside without looking at the seam? thanks.

[superslim]

Only enough to approcah the person and ask. In other words, you will see the dark blankness of the denim. Provided it is untreated.

This certain type of darkness will either mean raw (completly untreated) or selvage. Or it could mean both. But not all dark jeans are raw. Not all dark jeans are selvage.

You can also kind of tell by the outside if you are about an inch away from it and I doubt you want to get that close to a stranger. But the outside will only yield enough evidence of selvage to make you want to look at that inside seam to find out.

Also, you can have an idea by how stiff the jeans are. That's IF and ONLY IF they are newer. And the most that will get you is the probibility of raw. Case in point. Diesel makes a raw denim that is not a selvage denim. Tricky. Very tricky.

To be safe I think the only way you can tell on someone walking down the street is if you know the brand and style the person has on.

If someone has them cuffed you'll be able to tell by the seam.

So no, I guess you can't honestly and definitley tell by the outside of the pant on someone you don't know walking down the street. All you can have is an idea.

XOXO

Edited by superslim on May 31, 2005 at 01:39 PM

[wild_whiskey]

Well, if they are faded a lot on the seams, they have those "traintrack" fades down the side. With non-selvage jeans, there won't be two outside fading lines that run parallel to the seam, there will only be pucker-fading. Even when it has a double seam so it fades on both sides of the seam, it won't have the same faded lines running parallel to the seam. I wish I had some pictures to demonstrate. It's very difficult to explain.

[Geowu]

wild_whiskey, you mean like this?

Personally I can't tell the difference between a faded selvage "traintrack" and a non-selvage one.

[superslim]

No offense Wild Whiskey as you are usually so very right on most things. But this time not so much. Tracking can absolutley be left without the denim being selvage. An open seam, stitched at both ends will yield exactly the same result as long as the seam has laid flat during most of the wear. It is a reult of the slightly raised edge at the end of the fabric on the seam. Both selvage and open seams produce exactly the same result. Sorry babe! XOXO

XOXO

[woejozney]

What are the best mid priced selvedge jeans to buy? I have RR selvedge and I like them, but the fit is kinda big. Are topman selvedge anygood? Are there any selvedge that have a smaller fit?

[juxtaposed]

APC

[ringring]

Quote:

What are the best mid priced selvedge jeans to buy? I have RR selvedge and I like them, but the fit is kinda big. Are topman selvedge anygood? Are there any selvedge that have a smaller fit?

--- Original message by woejozney on Jun 1, 2005 08:24 AM

For mid priced slim fit selvedge, APC's as posted above are probably out there on their own.

Most selvedge jeans have more traditional cuts (longer rise, wider legs).

Other cheap to mid-priced selvedge jeans include Uniqlo, Gap and Edwin.

Other slimmer fitting selvedge jeans include LVC 47s, 5EP, Studio D'Artisan SD103 and Lad Musician. I've a vague recollection that the Hysteric Glamour selvedge jeans I saw recently were fairly slim. Not sure.

The Topman selvedge jeans look alright. A bit fancier than the jeans mentioned above.

[wild_whiskey]

Quote: No offense Wild Whiskey as you are usually so very right on most things. But this time not so much. Tracking can absolutley be left without the denim being selvage. An open seam, stitched at both ends will yield exactly the same result as long as the seam has laid flat during most of the wear. It is a reult of the slightly raised edge at the end of the fabric on the seam. Both selvage and open seams produce exactly the same result. Sorry babe! XOXO

I'll take your word for it. No need to apologize.

[woejozney]

I really like the LVC 47's. Is it definetely worth getting a pair?

[urban sprawl]

i went to kinokuniya and saw a book/mag only on uniglo. they gonna conquer usa very soon.

did you hear about that ringring?

superslim is right - almost...sorry;p

you will get these beautiful hi-lows at the outseams not only w/selvedge, but also not all the time with just a busted outseam. the reason why is that fabric (non-selvedge) tends to shrink a lot esp in a stone-enzyme wash so that the overlock will shrink and tend to close. hence you wont get beautiful hi-lows. also if you use a chainstitch under the flap it will help to close the seams...

there're several tricks to prevent this. if you email me i can reveal it...hehe.

you cannot tell if someone wears selevdge unless he/she cuffed them. also there are so many raw non-selvedges outthere. but one tip i could give is: smell them! the stronger the smell the more likelier the selvedge...?;PPPP

then there're brands who have an exposed selvedge coinpkt (not to say of these beautiful concealed one - everyone who doesnt do it doesnt know the heritage!, at the backpocket (eg edwin), inside the beltloops (45 rpm), the inside waistband (sugar kane), the flyfacing (blue bell), etc...

[superslim]

Seriously I think Urban Sprawl is one of the most valuable recources on this site. I have learned SO much about denim in Urban Sprawls last few posts I can't even believe it.

I'm tippin' my hat to you

HUGE XOXO

XOXO

[ringring]

i went to kinokuniya and saw a book/mag only on uniglo. they gonna conquer usa very soon.

did you hear about that ringring?

Yes I heard. Good luck to them.

I'm curious to see how their selvedge jeans look after a good long period of wear.

[wild_whiskey]

There are like 13 pairs of Uniqlo selvages going out to styleforum, give it a few months and we'll see for sure