Selvage, set the record straight.

[superslim]

Thanks Wild_Whiskey

XOXO

[Paul T]

Best reason for becoming denim expert: perfect excuse for looking at people's bums.

[urban sprawl]

this is really interesting. i was just at cone and the merchant said that they only have something like 20 shuttle looms now. hence the long long leadtime. also they were saying that they had only one person who could master and fix it and suddenly died.

then i saw an old pics with 100s...

i think the rumor from the 90s is that cone sold them to japan. it states in so many books. but if paul t is right then the myth is all over and we basically can say how lazy bastardos...;p

paul, i found this awesome mill through amhot called kato. so crazzzzzy beautiful. they have also some natural indigos for $25/yrd. let me know if you want the info.

you guys were saying that more mills will produce selvedge? shuttle looms aren't produced anymore hence how can selvedge be more "commercial" or am i wrong? also who does really care about selvedge (or cashmere or uji green tea) - only crazy nerds!;p

why hatin' ppl who just try to make overlock outseams more beautiful? but then they're ppl like a+f who use a twill tape and sew it under the felled to replicate...bs!!!!

i dunno, saw so many selvedge @ h&m, yakpak, topman - this doesn't mean that the quality is better (check ringring and my conversation: http://www.superfuture.com/city/supertalk/index.cfm?page=topic&topicID=817&start=91)

also the qlties i saw from legler, bossa, and some other european mills wasnt that interesting. but i'm kinda diggin the italdenim ones.

superslim: you might be not cool for school but in our eyes...yeah!;p

if you're slim and love raw selvedge, then why dont you try some jeans from japon? btw have you tried the vintage LEVIS for women with high rise? i think that cld be cool...?

[Paul T]

Email me that info, I'd be interested.

Re Cone, I remember the story of their looms from when Evis started out - it was in regard to Evis that people started talking about Levi's (or, of course, Cone) selling their looms. But the Levi's style r/h twill fabric Evis used from the beginning came from Kurabo - this is according to Adriano Goldschmied, who backed Evis in the early days, and was one fo the first people to use Kurabo for modern selvage jeans, way back in the mid 80s. And Kurabo might have the odd US loom, but they're not the mainstay. So I think that story started out as mostly spin, and the notion that the Japanese suddenly started making selvadge BECAUSE they'd bought COne looms in the mid 80s, is basically false.

However, this doesn't mean that lots of smaller operation haven't bought Cone looms - and I'd love to know if anyone has. But, as the people I know who've spend lots of time at Cone, all the big and many of the small Japanese mills have pointed out, buying second hand looms, repairing them, shipping them and maintaining them wouldn't make sense for most Japanese mills; buying Japanese looms would almost certainly be cheaper.

Of course, that does leave the question of where all those old US looms went, whether from Cone, or defunct outfits like Erwin mills all across the south. My guess would be they were scrapped - but it's just a guess. What does strike me is that, while the shuttle-looms-to-Japan story is endemic, all the people who should be able to verify it seem doubtful that it happened.

[skecr8r]

I heard somewhere that Eternal Jeans is manufactured from Cone Mill looms, but can't seem to get it confirmed anywhere off/online.

I would like the information as well.

Denim Fanatismé.

The Arc - Hitting the selvage from August 1st 2005.

PASHION - The pasion for fashion. Denmark - soon.

Wish'a'knew.

[urban sprawl]

Quote:

Email me that info, I'd be interested.

Re Cone, I remember the story of their looms from when Evis started out - it was in regard to Evis that people started talking about Levi's (or, of course, Cone) selling their looms. But the Levi's style r/h twill fabric Evis used from the beginning came from Kurabo - this is according to Adriano Goldschmied, who backed Evis in the early days, and was one fo the first people to use Kurabo for modern selvage jeans, way back in the mid 80s. And Kurabo might have the odd US loom, but they're not the mainstay. So I think that story started out as mostly spin, and the notion that the Japanese suddenly started making selvadge BECAUSE they'd bought COne looms in the mid 80s, is basically false.

However, this doesn't mean that lots of smaller operation haven't bought Cone looms - and I'd love to know if anyone has. But, as the people I know who've spend lots of time at Cone, all the big and many of the small Japanese mills have pointed out, buying second hand looms, repairing them, shipping them and maintaining them wouldn't make sense for most Japanese mills; buying Japanese looms would almost certainly be cheaper.

Of course, that does leave the question of where all those old US looms went, whether from Cone, or defunct outfits like Erwin mills all across the south. My guess would be they were scrapped - but it's just a guess. What does strike me is that, while the shuttle-looms-to-Japan story is endemic, all the people who should be able to verify it seem doubtful that it happened.

--- Original message by Paul T on May 22, 2005 12:22 PM

man it's getting more and more interesting. we shld write a detective story...?!

re the mill, do you mind revealing an email? do you design or merchandise?

[Paul T]

Look out for a PM...

Edited by Paul T on May 23, 2005 at 04:45 AM

[superslim]

"superslim: you might be not cool for school but in our eyes...yeah!;p"

Grrrrr... humph. Glaring eyes. Cranky face. Cool doesn't go with my outfit.

A few people have made some recomendations and asked some questions and maybe the following will address these things.

I actually went back to APC and bought the slim fit and am taking it to a tailor today to have them taken in. This always sketches me out as I am afraid they will come out terrible. But we'll see. I'm really excited about it.

Further proof that I am not too cool: I freaked in Tsubi and bought all the colored jeans. Hot pink. Can you believe it? How rediculously fantastic. Now they are not great quality but they are frekin' hot pink with zippers on the ankles. And they are TIGHT even for little people. Sorry guys sometimes a girl has to let go of the quality for the sheer sillyness of it all. I feel like I did in the ---- grade. C'mon that would give away my age...

Japan. It's a little hard for me to find jeans from Japan. I think about it alot and mostly wish I could find them, but never actually succeed. I wish it was approprite to offer to buy things off of people's bodies. Most importantly I would LOVE to go there. But I need some kind of sugar daddy for that trip and I just... NO.

And vintage Levi's women's just don't fit me well. I'll try them differently- maybe larger or something. The right size...I can't get my butt in there well.

XOXO

Edited by superslim on May 23, 2005 at 07:47 AM

[darknworn]

superslim -

tight hot pink tsubi's, super slim who can't get her butt into levi's (sounds like JLo proportions)...are you trying to create fantasies here???

just allow for 1-1.5" on the hem and you'll be fine w/ shrinkage. the waist doesn't shrink much on APC's. i assume we're talking about the dry jeans here.

"God is Dead" - Neitzsche

"Neitzsche is Dead" - God

[Paul T]

Superslim, do look out for Vintage Levi's 607, orange tab. They were unisex but are the classic womens' bootcut. THey're not always available... you used to be able to get them in a made-in-the-US version that wore brilliantly. My girlfriend stole mine and they look great; another friend bought the LVC reissue version about 18 months ago, they look great, too. And the RED range that inspired the Type 1 is pretty good, straight leg.

ALl of Levi's rivals (ie the designer at Diesel & Lee) do maintain that Levi's can't do women's cuts... so maybe they're right. About 18 months ago theyactually copied a pair of Seven jeans, cut for cut, to try & get some of that market - it was the 557 girls Square Fit, if you like that Low Rise kinda thing, but the denim wasn't that great.

But hey, i'm sure you're on the right trail anyway, good luck with the APC.

[superslim]

So Paul T please let me know if you see ANY of what you just mentioned. I will be on the phone to the store faster then you can hit post on this site.

Due to your dedication to LVC and all things Levi's I will simply have to reapproach the whole thing. Maybe I can figure out how to rock the mens' cuts.

And about Diesel... Their women's slim cuts are rockin right now. Something called the Keate. Does something to the rear of a woman that is amazing. Have your girl give them a try. YOU are sure to like it. ; )

Yep the APC's are the dry ones.

XOXO

Edited by superslim on May 23, 2005 at 11:26 AM

Edited by superslim on May 23, 2005 at 11:27 AM

Edited by superslim on May 23, 2005 at 11:29 AM

[urban sprawl]

superslim,

i think now you get the attention...hehe!

well, what about 45rpm? since you live in bklyn (right?) take the n,r train...;p

ringring posted a link to http://www.works-corp.com/iron/twenty_one/index.html. they might look cute on ya! but then you cant get them here.

also sunday ones i like.

but tsubi? i dunooooooo. c'mon you dont wanna mess w/diesel...

have u tried on the levi's super slim with the tappered leg? they're cute...

if you gonna take in your denim go to 45rpm, they have a chainstitch machine.

good night.

[Paul T]

Superslim, you must have been to Selvage in NY, it's on Mulberry (and prime?), can't remember if it's SoHo or the Village, 219 0994, last time I was there the manager was Brett Anderson. They should have all the RED and Vintage stuff. If you're in the industry you might be able to get a discount (25% in London if you work in a shop on the same street!).

I;m not saying Levi's will necessarily work for you, I just like them...

[superslim]

Yes I shop at 45 RPM religiously. Just this Saturday I noticed that they have a female fit that may work for me. I have plans to go there this Saturday and try them on. Very exciting.

And Selvage is in Nolita. I heart Nolita. I have not bothered to go in there much as I had written off the possibility of finding Levi's that fit me. But Mr. Paul T, you have made me a believer and I am so going there after work one day this week.

Urban Sprawl, Look for a PM.

XOXO

[superslim]

Paul T- What else can you tell us about the looms from Cone? How about the production process from creating fabric on.

Look I'll start...

Ring Spun: The longest cotton fibers from a bushel are twisted together to create a strong highly durable yarn. The yarns are inconsistent in diameter, creating natural slubs & sharp vertical lines when made in to fabric. All of this yields a higher quality and since more cotton is used, denim made from ring spun yarns are more expensive when compared to Open End.

Open End: All cotton fibers long and short are blown together into a fake twist . This is cost effective and often results in plain looking fabric. Because all sorts of sizes of cotton fibers are used here open end fabric is more likely to tear.

Double Ring Spun: Both the warp and the weft use ring spun yarn. ( where is ringring when you need him?)

Let's continue to set the record straight for people who want to learn and discuss the basics.

XOXO

[skecr8r]

Those are the exact things you are supposed to be writing, superslim

I guess I can freely copy those to use, am I correct?

Denim Fanatismé.

The Arc - Hitting the selvage from August 1st 2005.

PASHION - The pasion for fashion. Denmark - soon.

Wish'a'knew.

[superslim]

Of course you can love.

XOXO

[Paul T]

Hiya Superslim, did you ever see the CD-ROM that Cone produced of their production process? I DID have a spare one but have rummaged thru my cupboards and can't find the bleedin' thing. They might still have some knocking around they could send you?

[Paul T]

"Ring/OE" combines a Ring-Spun warp fabric with an Open End weft, to obtain much of the strength and look of traditional Ring-Ring denim at a lower cost. Gap's Best Basics jeans used Ring/Open End denim supplied by Cone Mills".

[superslim]

Paul T- I'll call Cone again and ask for that CD ROM. Thanks!

Open End: Warp and weft use open end yarns

Right Hand Twill: The diagonal pattern of the weave- runs up to the right.

Left Hand Twill: The twill runs up to the left. Softer.

Broken Twill : Fabric that is woven in a quickly alternating LH / RH pattern. The effect is a zig zag pattern visible on the inside. Less "twist."

3 by 1:Warp yarn travels over 3 weft then under 1

How can you tell?

If inside is significantly lighter then outside

Warp: Yarns running the length of the fabric. Visible on the outside

Weft: Yarns running the width of the fabric. Visible on the inside

XOXO

Edited by superslim on May 24, 2005 at 08:41 AM

[Paul T]

Another reason for Broken Twill (invented by John Neil Walker, and first used by Wrangler in 1965 for its 13MWZ cowboy jeans), which someone at Wrangler just told me:

"The unique structure of broken twill denim allows it to absorb starch

very well. Cowboys soak their jeans in starch for two reasons:

a, To become a dirt screen (in the same way as Teflon coating works

today), they're proud guys those cowboys!

b, The starch helps them maintain a center crease down the front of

their jeans.

Who'da thunk it?

[skecr8r]

Beautiful you guys :-)

I guess I can get on with editing again ;-)

But don't write it all here, spare some for the arc!! ;-) Mail everything you do it to me, thanks :-)

-J

EDIT: Like Jessica said below, that fact is actually quite bloody cool!

Denim Fanatismé.

The Arc - Hitting the selvage from August 1st 2005.

PASHION - The pasion for fashion. Denmark - soon.

Wish'a'knew.

Edited by skecr8r on May 24, 2005 at 09:54 AM

Edited by skecr8r on May 24, 2005 at 11:58 AM

[superslim]

Get out! A center crease! How funny.

I use startch for merchandising purposes. Creates a nice effect when displaying. Spray on like crazy, roll, wrinkle, pinch, hold with close pins, let dry, unroll. Nice.

See this is why Paul T is great. What a random fact. Love it.

Back Pockets: Separate left and right pattern pieces are anatomically enhancing. Most comapnies use one pattern piece for both.

XOXO

[urban sprawl]

weee, it's like a freestyle battle here...!

did anyone go to the cone anniversary party in NC 2 weeks ago?

for presentation i usully wrinkle/roll the legs up, spray them and put it in the dryer. nice and warm...;P

+++++++++++++++++++++++from an old post:

posted: Mar 26, 2005 10:14 AM msg. 49 of 184

as ringring said the term "ring-ring" is more a technical term. basically it means that the warp and weft are ring-spun - kinda "cashmere of denim"!

after the 70's "open-end" spinning was introduced. this spinning basically skips several processes that ring yarns go through. for the same reason as non-selvedge: faster, cheaper, more effecient.

later, to kinda replicate ring/ring, they introduced "faux-ring" or "ring/oe". basically the warp is ring and the weft is open-end spun. hence you keep the price down but get a stronger denim than just oe on both. but that's not the real mccoy right?!

usually, or if you happen to have lots of time to look at denim for some odd reason, you can see the difference between ring/ring or oe. but nowadays, it's tougher to distinguish between ring/ring and ring/oe since they try to fake the slubbyness or irregularities.

another factor of the strength but also beauty of denim is how the twill was woven. the more common construction is 2x1 or 3x1. the latter one is the more expensive but also the more stronger one.

contrary to ringring's statement, i think it makes a difference whether you spin it on a shuttle loom or 60"wide loom. the machines are so different that it will effect the denim - time makes a difference. but there's bad and cheap selvedge out there with weak constructions!

another important thing is the dyeing process. i have been reading here some stuff about natural indigo (such as the studio d'artisan)... well if you don't mind i would like to write something about it.')

there are many techniques of dyeing and also with what. there's rope dyeing, ring dyeing, sulphur dyeing, etc...

good authentic ring indigo denim is rope dyed. threads are gathered to ropes and dyed in several baths of indigo, then washed dried beamed and finally woven.

at ring dye, only the outer ring of fibres are dyed, leaving the core undyed therefore easier to get hi-lows later. also to enhance the effect you can mercerize it.

most of the denim in the market are pure indigo - a petroleum based synthetic dye or sulphur indigo. here the warps are treated either prior the dye (sulphur bottom) to keep the core of the yarn from the indigo, or after the dye (sulphur top). pure indigo has no sulphur dye.

natural indigo, as most of you know is harvested from the plant such as indigofera, storobilanthes and polygonum. the whole process is very time-consuming and not cheap. i heard that during the fermentation process urine is used...?!

++++++++++++++++++++

anyways, we had this interesting and very challenging converstaion that selvedge does not equal always good fabric. or shuttle loom vs projectile loom: is there a different when you have the same yarn-count, construction, twill, indigo dye weaving it in 2 different looms?

what do you guys think?

[urban sprawl]

also you can check olah.com. these guys know the game. in fact one of them, michael m., teaches part-time a course of denim @ f.i.t. and does "company training" for free.

fyi, olah is an agent representing kurabo japan/hk, cobra, suape, etc...

[skecr8r]

I believe they are pretty much the same. I'll use an analogy like Wild_Whiskey likes them

When you buy a bespoke suit, they come tailor fit. If you happen to find a blazer that fits you perfectly and its highend, the difference will probably be minimal, if the materials used are the same.

The quality on an old shuttle loom will probably be even worse than the projectile loom, these are made to make perfect denim with as few imperfections as possible, the natural errors and mistakes that will happen when woven on a shuttle loom will add the flavour that makes the denim as good.

I _think_ it was Denime that had a model without selvage but 16oz denim that was incredible.

Its all in the details.

Denim Fanatismé.

The Arc - Hitting the selvage from August 1st 2005.

PASHION - The pasion for fashion. Denmark - soon.

Wish'a'knew.

[urban sprawl]

paul, can you see this pic?

[wild_whiskey]

Quote: I believe they are pretty much the same. I'll use an analogy like Wild_Whiskey likes them

undoubtedly the most efficient form of explanation! you done me proud.

[Paul T]

Er, what pic?

[ringring]

Double Ring Spun: Both the warp and the weft use ring spun yarn. ( where is ringring when you need him?)

Need? Hey, you people are way ahead of me . Thanks anyway Superslim, you're very kind.

anyways, we had this interesting and very challenging converstaion that selvedge does not equal always good fabric. or shuttle loom vs projectile loom: is there a different when you have the same yarn-count, construction, twill, indigo dye weaving it in 2 different looms?

what do you guys think?

Urban Sprawl - you're persistant LOL. Props to you. I love your posts.

Actually, you have a point. I think if you take a tiny scale artisan mill, you may get more inconsistencies in the fabric (although the vast majority will be caused by the yarn, rather than the loom per se). Mind you, a small artisan using a wide loom may well weave fabric with a lot of faults/inconsistencies too! And if the mill is deliberately cultivating 'faults' then of course you'll produce them.

However weaving faults aren't exclusive to shuttle looms, even big mills, using modern looms, make denim with faults, (usually these rolls end up scattered with bright orange stickers and discounted price) - especially when making short trial lengths. Poor QC will also result in more faults, regardless of loom.

For mass production mills, I still think the difference between the two is minimal when using the same ingredients. (and as always, there are plenty of examples of gorgeous slubby wide-loom denims, that if you mixed them with random swatches of selvage denims, you'd be hard pressed to pick between what loom made what).