To Vote, or Not to Vote

[cjbreed]

if you really need proof why you need to vote (and I'm going to be honest, vote Obama), take a peek at Ms. Palin's most recent gem regarding her interpretation of the inaliable right to freedom of speech.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/10/palin-fears-med.html

bitch is unreal. i would hate to see her as VP of the homeowners association or the PTA or something like that, let alone VP of the most powerful nation on earth. how is this even happening? it is surreal. it is a farce.

[tmadd]

If you want to abstain from voting for everything on your ballot, including third party candidates whose "platforms" might come closer to being perfect matches to your principles, and cut and dry state and local initiatives that you most likely would have a strong preference for, then genuinely hope you are active in some way shape or form in trying to build and promote the type of system/political body that you would accept. If you aren't dedicating a significant amount of energy to changing the things you find unacceptable about the political system, then your non-vote doesn't mean shit except that you don't really like the rules so you won't play, and as a consequence, you will have to just deal with whatever comes down the pipes as a result of your non-participation.

Also, I would love to hear a reasoned and factually supported argument that McCain and Obama are essentially the same. While I can certainly understand neither lining up perfectly to anyone's ideology, I think that anyone who has been paying any real attention the last two months or so would be more than aware that these two are about as different in every significant way as you could ever expect two mainstream candidates to be in a two party system. The idea we will find our selves in the same place in 4 or 8 years regardless of who is elected is ludicrous and ignorant.

As a sidenote, I spent about an hour reading the platforms on Nader's and Barr's sites, and if you want to talk about not getting into specifics, Barr's uber-detailed "kinda just let the market take care of it" generic response to every issue takes the cake. These guys aren't even trying to run real campaigns on real platforms, they are just trying to bolster their status as idealogues...they are much more concerned with articulating that the system is broken than moving to repair it.

[surfed57]

I, for one, am sick of this mindless bullshit about voting.

Just for the sake of argument, let's say that the electoral college doesn't disenfranchise you, that your electronic ballot is cast successfully, that your vote is counted, and you, individually have helped elect Barack Obama. It still doesn't fucking matter.

Your life will not change based on which candidate is elected into office. If the entire fucking congress and senate and executive branch and supreme court, for the sake of argument, was voted into office by an effective and fair voting system, that wouldn't matter either.

You're not being governed by these people who you elect. You're being governed by corporations and the power system in this country which has gone back decades if not centuries. This country has been bought out a long time ago, and the shit they bring in and out every four years is meaningless.

I quote George Carlin: "The real owners are the big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians, they're an irrelevancy. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They've long since bought and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the statehouses, the city halls. They've got the judges in their back pockets. And they own all the big media companies, so that they control just about all of the news and information you hear. They've got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying – lobbying to get what they want."

Voting is nothing more than the illusion that you have a choice. You get to choose between the puppet on the left and the puppet on the right. Have fun. Voters have no real influence in this country, and as far as I'm concerned you're all buying into the lie that they do. If it makes you feel better to vote, go ahead. I'm staying the fuck home.

[tmadd]

Great argument...tell people who lost loved ones in Iraq that their life would be no different today if al gore had been inaugurated in 2001...you get high marks for carrying on like you know what you are talking about but you are lacking in the able to structure an argument department. Try again.

[NESK]

surfed: im very sorry for tellign you this, but you suck. your entire worldveiw is skewed and manipulated by a machine very similar ot the corporate machine you think rules everyone else.

you have been brainwashed into relativism by an apatheic generation that feeds on hopelessness. you believe you cannot make a difference not because its true, but because youve accepted it as truth without questioning the reality of the situation.

theres defiantely no easy way out of the hypercapitalist strangle hold on america. ill give you that. but to denounce the only system available to you to initiate change only perpetuates the control you think your striking against by not participating.

you are throwing rocks at a brick wall. if you chose to act just a little, you might get past the door. then you could start kicking out the supports from the inside.

its your call, though. i cant tell you if a candidate is right for you. but not choosing one doesnt solve anything. the only positive to not voting is that if the wrong person wins, you will have more shit to bitch about online. good luck to you.

[surfed57]

Honestly and sincerely, could you explain to me what part of the situation I'm not looking at realistically. I think a careful, rational examination leads to the conclusion that the voter has little influence in how things are run in this country. I admit it is possible for one person to make a difference, but it certainly wouldn't be through the ballot. And I don't understand you're analogy with the brick wall—get inside where? What supports?

I'll refer you to this article about George Carlin's political views http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat/331953 which I share on almost all levels.

I'm not just saying any of this to be rebellious or apathetic in some sort of cool way—it's something I've struggled with for a long time and I'm interested to hear other peoples' views (as long as it's not some vacuous spastic bullshit, tmadd.)

The way I see it, all the important issues in this country, be it healthcare, education, distribution of wealth, etc. are in the hands of powers which exist far outside the voter's reach. What are you going to do once you elect everyone you've wanted? Send them letters? I just can't believe you honestly expect any of your interests to be represented in this system.

I agree that we have the collective power to make a change, that if the oppressed really banded together and asserted their interests, this country would be an infinitely better place. But the electoral system will never be the avenue for that change, and I'm not going to be had by the illusion that it is.

[ProfMonnitoff]

there are two candidates with differing views and depending on which gets elected different things will happen. instead of having a little influence, you choose to have no influence whatsoever. congratulations.

[surfed57]

I suppose I just have too much pride to take part in a process that is such obvious bullshit.

[NESK]

instead of choosing a politician to support, youve chosen a comedian.

the electoral process hasnt failed you, youve failed it.

[tmadd]

a guy citing george carlin as a learned source of knowledge should be careful hurling accusations of vacuous spastic bullshit. Go ahead and ignore the simple and inarguable point that there would be thousands of americans who didn't die in iraq if gore was the president for the last eight years instead of bush...explain to me how the "being at the behest of corporations" similarity is more important than this clear difference.

[NESK]

but if all those people hadnt died, micheal moore wouldnt be able to make hilarious films. why push for change when you can kick your feet up and wait for the joke material to rush in (carlin concept).

[surfed57]

a guy citing george carlin as a learned source of knowledge should be careful hurling accusations of vacuous spastic bullshit. Go ahead and ignore the simple and inarguable point that there would be thousands of americans who didn't die in iraq if gore was the president for the last eight years instead of bush...explain to me how the "being at the behest of corporations" similarity is more important than this clear difference.

I really don't know if you want to run with the Gore/Bush argument, seeing as, you know, Gore actually won that election. Every vote counts.

[NESK]

oh snap.

bush did 9/11!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[multicolor]

surfed I really think if you are against the system... instead of not voting, vote third party. They are against the system too

Also

the electoral process hasnt failed you, youve failed it.

same goes for anyone who is voting for obama/mccain...

[NESK]

pfffffffff.

i like your style on third party voting. im all for that as the alternative to not voting or voting strategically.

i still think your a dummy, though.

[onemancult]

i find it funny that right after i posted my jokepost, that someone who embodies what i was poking fun at popped into this discussion.

surfed, tell people who rally behind voting pro-choice candidates, or candidates that hold equal rights for all important, that their vote doesnt count. go on, tell people who actually stand to gain something by electing a certain official over another that their vote doesnt affect their daily lives.

beyond the fact that nothing on this planet, let alone in this country, is as cut and dry as needlessly apathetic disillusioned fuckfaced twits like you paint it. sure, there is a lot that is outside of the control of the citizenry, but for all the power concentrated outside of politics, there is just as much of that power intertwined with the government.

there is nothing absolute about control in this country.

so what do you do? sit back and do nothing because you think that the bad guys are too strong, or get engaged and cast a vote for the person that you think stands the best chance of capably pushing back, even if only a little, all the non-political power brokers in the country?

[NESK]

i have a feeling surfed has more chomsky books than godsmack records, though.

and his thundercats pants are waaaaaaay tighter then the picture you posted.

hes still a pinko raver slut.

[multicolor]

pfffffffff.

i like your style on third party voting. im all for that as the alternative to not voting or voting strategically.

i still think your a dummy, though.

lol

still?? WHO R U?

plz........

i really don't care enough to try to persuade ignorant obama or mccain followers to vote for someone else.

vote for him!! who cares!

[NESK]

i said still because your dismissive without providing solid reasons. so yeah, i still think youre a dummy.

i cant vote in the US election because im canadian. but i vote up here for a party that doesnt get much seats. its the equivolent of voting nader down there, i guess. if i were in the states, id definately vote obama because i think he represents the direction america should be moving toward. hes no messiah, but hes the best option.

edit: im also very sorry about your two party system down there. but thats how it goes, might as well make the most of it unless your doing something revolutionary to correct it.

[multicolor]

so in canada you vote nader, and here you vote obama because.....?

So, who would you vote for if you didn't know everyone else was voting for Obama?

[NESK]

when i say its like voting nader i mean theres essentially no chance of my party winning or coming close to getting a majority of seats in our parliment. but the way our system works creates a little more incentive to vote for the underdog than yours does, i dislike the idea of voting for who you think can win rather than who youd prefer to support.

and if i was american, id be voting obama not because hes popular but because i like him as a politician and i normally hate politicians en masse. 4 years ago i would have voted nader, but this time around hes so inconsequential and egotistical. what little i have seen from him has angered me and ive stopped even looking for him by now.

[multicolor]

but Nader is not going to win anyway..

the third party vote is really more like a protest vote to me.

Regardless of whether or not Obama is the right direction or not, i would never vote for him.

[tmadd]

I really don't know if you want to run with the Gore/Bush argument, seeing as, you know, Gore actually won that election. Every vote counts.

Except that I was using that to illustrate that the results of the actions of one major party candidate are demonstrably different from those that would be taken by the other which completely invalidates the heart of your argument that even if there weren't inherent flaws in how elections are structured that voting is useless because corporations control absolutely everything.

You can talk all you want about the reasons the electoral college, voting machines, and a representative republic system are flawed, and I will probably agree with you on a fair amount, but what I originally asked you to support is the inane assertion that there would be no recognizable difference in the state of the nation after four years of one candidate versus four years of the other.

[tmadd]

Regardless of whether or not Obama is the right direction or not, i would never vote for him.

This sentence is one of the stupidest I have ever read, and I don't mean because of the anti-Obama sentiment. Substitute any name or really just noun for "Obama" and the matching pronoun for "him" and you might see what I mean. Either that, or its just a "clever" way of saying you don't trust black people. Or you just purposely avoid "being right".

[jonathanschley]

Don't vote.

I've never voted.

Primary reason - never seen a candidate I really liked

Secondary reason - if there was a candidate I really liked, is that candidate going to be better for ME or for EVERYONE? probably just me, which I think is unfair to everyone else, and since everyone votes with this mindset, I think the entire voting mindstate is flawed

Tertiary reason - at this point I think its ridiculous for one person to appeal to enough to be a leader of 228 million people. this country is too big for one figure head and the notion of one is detrimental to the emotional health or patriotism or whatever (call it what you want to) of the entire country.

Other minor reasons - electoral college is outdated and no longer tenable, more people voting encourages more fraud in counting the votes, our information about candidates is too limited and has been altered by many different lenses (media gives everything a spin) by the time it reaches us. not only do we not get all the information but the little information we get has been altered.

Fuck voting and I encourage everyone to not vote nor perpetuate this fucked up political system in general... haha.

your secondary reason is stupid. that is why EVERYONE has a vote to themselves, you are supposed to vote in the manner that is best for YOU, and the other guy him, that's what makes it equal. Using your vote out of concern for other people is stupid, but it's your right... so do what you want, whether that means voting or not.

[jonathanschley]

Regardless of whether or not Obama is the right direction or not, i would never vote for him.

why? i'm not being accusatory or inflammatory, i just want to know. p.m. if you think your feelings will get you berated if posted publicly... for reference, i am voting third party... i'm typically on the right and would have voted for the mccain of 4 or 5 years ago, but i feel like he's abandoned his values. and i would never vote democrat, i think the party is all over the place and tries too hard to appeal to such a broad base of constituents that it sets itself up for failure and their success is 100% reliant on whatever hot button talking point is popular that election year.

[multicolor]

This sentence is one of the stupidest I have ever read, and I don't mean because of the anti-Obama sentiment. Substitute any name or really just noun for "Obama" and the matching pronoun for "him" and you might see what I mean. Either that, or its just a "clever" way of saying you don't trust black people. Or you just purposely avoid "being right".

hahahhhhahhahah

seriously?

Either it is a racist comment or grammatically incorrect? one of those?

i am not going to defend myself or take part in a pointless online debate.

But i will just rephrase what i meant a little bit, and then I'm done.

I would never vote for Obama. I would never vote for Mccain.

They both work within a really messed up system where the campaigns are funded by corporations, and only reps and dems are allowed in the debates.

That is reason enough not to vote for them.

[Brando]

hahahhhhahhahah

seriously?

Either it is a racist comment or grammatically incorrect? one of those?

i am not going to defend myself or take part in a pointless online debate.

But i will just rephrase what i meant a little bit, and then I'm done.

I would never vote for Obama. I would never vote for Mccain.

They both work within a really messed up system where the campaigns are funded by corporations, and only reps and dems are allowed in the debates.

That is reason enough not to vote for them.

I may be completely ignorant here, as being from Australia I do not fully understand the American political system, but doesn't your simplification contradict your argument. By having only the two parties represented that should make the decision is a simple one, based on pragmatism and weighing these two options up.

From my naive outside view there are no two ways about it (Obama)

[onemancult]

OH WAHHHH WAHHHHH WAHHHHH I WANT THIRD PARTY CANDIDATES IN ON THE FUN WAHHHH WAHHHH

[fg0d]

i dont know much about ralph nader other than the one my mom got