football: the beautiful game

[polishmike]

^^polish mike, absolutely. repped you for that. how come so many football fans think you should get points for playing with "more style" and think good defense is merely optional?

Thanks. That's because these fans don't understand the game. They only care for the show not for the result.

[RobbertJan]

yeah you know it all.......... i'm a fan, a big one as well, and i just explained the difference in how we think about this game. i don't care about the result i said, this came out a bit wrong when i read it back, i meant: i want to see good soccer, and that for me is about technique, creativity and from there on you score goals and win matches. and i meant, i don't want a team to just go for a result the easy way like liverpool did. it's 1000000 x more difficult to play barca's way, and that's the way i like it. i mean that your style of play has yielded more results through out soccer history, that's because it's the easy way. soccer for me is not just about winning, for you it is, that's fine that's your opinion i don't care. i care more about the beauty of soccer. that's the thing that i value first, from there on you go and try to win your matches.

if you've read my first post, i support barca first, that's my team. psv i just support in holland because i was born in that region. i'll be the first to admit that they play in the exact way i just explained i hate. in holland i enjoy watching az a lot more, but what can i say, when you grow up with psv as the best team in the region, that's who you support.

and shut up about me not understanding the game, i just have a different view. i've played soccer all my life and i watch a lot of matches live and all the rewinds. i know the players, the teams, the tactics, and i understand your view. so don't give me that bullshit, i know what i'm talking about.

[swisloc]

ronaldinho doesn't defend because he's that good, he's useless at defending anyway and this way he can use all his energy to create something and decide a match.

you can decide a match with defense as well! did you watch the world cup at all??? think Italy, think Canovara, Nesta, think Paolo Maldini in the 90's, think Marcel Desailly for France, all highly skilled defenders that CONTROLLED games... my god this statement is ridiculous. i mean, have you ever played football? do you realize how physical it actually is? if any player is "saving his energy for attacking" he is not doing his part, plain and simple.

i'd rather watch any of the above players in their prime than Ronaldinho.

its sport and a team should try to get the result the way they are best at playing. and if they win, they win. saying you care more about the beauty than the result is just assinine, then why support any team? why not just go on youtube and download highlight reels? you could prefer your team play one way or another, but if you really SUPPORT barca then you should want them to play as they need to to win the game. and just saying the other team is dirty is such a cop out. liverpool didn't play dirty in any way, soccer is a contact sport, tackling is allowed and is esential in winning games.

[polishmike]

i don't want a team to just go for a result the easy way like liverpool did. it's 1000000 x more difficult to play barca's way, and that's the way i like it.

If playing the European Champions, first team in La Liga and probably the best team in the world at their own stadium and going a goal down in the first 15 minutes and coming back to win it 2-1 is the easy way I don't know whats hard. This was most likely the toughest game for Liverpool in this edition of Champions League.

I'm done discussing this. Let's watch clips of someone dribbling.

[RobbertJan]

one more thing sorry, it was a hard game for liverpool ofcourse, i mean the way they try to play is the easiest way, if you try to make it impossible for your opponent to play soccer, because they are better then you, that's the easiest way.

now who saw AZ, they just beat fenerbahce in the final 3 minutes, great match again!!!!!

[RobbertJan]

this is how me and my friends play soccer on the streets and playgrounds around my house:

[superdupersang]

dear guys, stop giving robert jan a hard time.

yes, i know he sounds l;ike a whining 12 year old twat who "plays football in the street"

and knows sweet fa about the beautiful game.

but everyone secretly wishes their fav team would play like the brazil of 1970.

R3yq2wSSXpE

creativity has been in a decline, just look at the list of teams to win the world cup.

ageing temas with little/no creative cuting edge but a mean defense like italy win.

whilst the "creative " teams' match decends into chaos

uKXq7xcnkis

[RobbertJan]

you can decide a match with defense as well! did you watch the world cup at all??? think Italy, think Canovara, Nesta, think Paolo Maldini in the 90's, think Marcel Desailly for France, all highly skilled defenders that CONTROLLED games... my god this statement is ridiculous. i mean, have you ever played football? do you realize how physical it actually is? if any player is "saving his energy for attacking" he is not doing his part, plain and simple.

i'd rather watch any of the above players in their prime than Ronaldinho.

its sport and a team should try to get the result the way they are best at playing. and if they win, they win. saying you care more about the beauty than the result is just assinine, then why support any team? why not just go on youtube and download highlight reels? you could prefer your team play one way or another, but if you really SUPPORT barca then you should want them to play as they need to to win the game. and just saying the other team is dirty is such a cop out. liverpool didn't play dirty in any way, soccer is a contact sport, tackling is allowed and is esential in winning games.

rijkaard said so himself: ronaldinho is more relieved of defense duties then others, this is a normal thing considering he's 1: an attacking players, so you shouldn't worry about defence all that much anyway 2: this season he's scored 15 goals again and given about as many assists, which means he decides a lot of games for barca.

attacking players that have to defend a lot, like kuyt, have to because they have to compensate their lack of quality with a great work ethic. teams that are great at defending like the italian national team and teams like ac milan have strikers that don't defend, inzaghi or gilardino or ronaldo now, they won't work hard to defend, maybe a little to disrupt the opponents defenders, BECAUSE THEIR FUCKING STRIKERS AND THEY HAVE TO SCORE.

and i support barca, i hate it when they lose, but i'd hate it to if they played cowardly. i support barca no matter what, i merely expressed that i love their way of playing.

and yeah i followed the world cup, and it was a sad tournament, if the team with the best defence wins, a tournament fucking sucks. brazil sucked, holland sucked, all the attacking teams were bad, no doubt, but that doesn't mean it's great that italy won.

and i do realise that soccer is physical, ronaldinho is a very strong player to, but it's wrong when your best quality is that your so strong.

and btw it's not fair to compare italy and liverpool defence, because maldini is a great player with great skill as well as is nesta, the liverpool defence couldn't dream to be like that. all the other players you named to, desailly, yeah great defender, because he had a good technique as well and he didn't just kick the ball as far away as he could whenever it came near him.

[superdupersang]

ronaldinho is becoming a little bit fat.

this does not bode well for barca. coz if hes not happy and leaves, their fucked

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/02/23/ronaldinhos_soft_centre_is_wei.html

[swisloc]

rijkaard said so himself: ronaldinho is more relieved of defense duties then others, this is a normal thing considering he's 1: an attacking players, so you shouldn't worry about defence all that much anyway 2: this season he's scored 15 goals again and given about as many assists, which means he decides a lot of games for barca.

well, if his coach is telling him he shouldn't defend, than i think it's a bad tactic that will (and IS i feel) be coming back to haunt them.

Dude, seriously, it's cool, you like barca, you like brazil/holland teams that attack and play (to use the old phrase from your homeland) "total soccer". That's fine, except these teams have a LONG track record of losing. I just disagree with you. i prefer solid allround teams (i was a huge fam of 1998/2000 France for instance); i'm no liverpool lover, i just appreciate a team that can use a particular tatical plan to expose the flaws of a superior opponent in a hostile environment (in the States we call it rooting for the underdog).

the only other thing that bothers me about your comments is that i hear the same from A LOT of soccer/football fans that never played competitve matches (not saying this is you per se) and don't really understand physical determination it requires to play good team defense, win balls in the air, tackle without fouling, dictate the flow of play. the best teams can do this AND attack with flare. when i was 16 i travelled to Netherlands/Belgium/England to play with my regional Olympic Development Program team. we won 2 out of 8 games, and lost 2 very close games to teams with players who were preparing to play for youth national teams. the most impressive thing about these teams/players BY FAR was not their ball skills (although these were very good, too), but the way they shut us down physically by tackling clean, winning balls in the air, etc... you can learn ball skills by repetition by yourself, but you can only learn the defense through hard work.

ok. so let's agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

[superdupersang]

+1 yep.

attacking skill = defencive skill

same in all sports.

so swissloc how close were you to becoming a full time football player?

[swisloc]

+1 yep.

attacking skill = defencive skill

same in all sports.

so swissloc how close were you to becoming a full time football player?

hah, not close. Olympic Development Program is basically to US Soccer what the AAU is to basketball, there are teams in every region of the country, so being on one doesn't neccessarily mean much (and ironically, has nothing to do with the olympics). i was good for my area but was much more of a role player/distributor on my team, i played center midfield and some right wing, took some free kicks, etc...but everyone knows, strikers get the glory! I only played club in college, focusing on academics instead. i still play in competitive outdoor leagues in NYC, which is really fun, cause there are entire teams of single nationalities, it's like a mini world cup every season!

[polishmike]

Swisloc we might run into each other on the field one day. I mostly play in jersey and sometimes pick up games with Liverpool suporters club but I know few people in the leagues in nyc. It seems that I'm working more on my beer belly than my football these days.

[RobbertJan]

^haha ok dude, srry i can get carried away a bit,

jealous that you guys have those kind of teams, sounds like fun man:)

[swisloc]

Swisloc we might run into each other on the field one day. I mostly play in jersey and sometimes pick up games with Liverpool suporters club but I know few people in the leagues in nyc. It seems that I'm working more on my beer belly than my football these days.

yeah, it's a constant fight to stay in shape, but it's still fun to get out there...

[RobbertJan]

haha ajax just got raped by the ref. wtf was that guy doing, you'd almost think az bought the match.

[cHr]

haha ajax just got raped by the ref. wtf was that guy doing, you'd almost think az bought the match.

It's not like scheringa (met zijn schrale hoofd) isn't known for buying things..

[RobbertJan]

haha barca back on form tonight, totally ripped bilbao to pieces, ronni on amazing form, the one move where he goes past two defenders and hits the bar, pure genius, but the best was his through ball on eto'o for the 3-0. with sammi back on barca is a lot better. andres iniesta putting up a great performance to, it was a great match by barca.

[RobbertJan]

oh and terry:S wtf that was bad man, KO and everyone freaking out......first reports say he's got a severe concussion, bad season for him..

[superdupersang]

what is wrong with spanish football?

the sevilla coach got hit on the head by a bottle from the crowd and knocked him unconcious.

doesnt look like an isolated incident as well.

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/03/01/this_was_no_isolated_incident.html

and a pigs head?

7GxHSvymuco

[Tisswat]

Damn, that boy is on fire!

[swisloc]

Damn, that boy is on fire!

true. at both ends of the field. scored the only goals in the match!

i'm surprised though. when i checked the thread today i was sure i'd see liverpool represented with Barca fans cowering in the corner, but maybe they are still too scared to come out.

absolutely superb game played by PSV yesterday and Liverpool the day before. Very similar tactic for both teams (although i'd say Liverpool straight out played Barca for most of the match, while the PSV-Arsenal game was more even). Jamie Carragher was a fucking monster. absolutely great.

also, i was really pulling for Celtic. even though they were clearly overmatched, they almost pulled it off.

[superdupersang]

predictions for the athens final?

man utd (of course) vs. Liverpool(?)

all england final?

would be interesting, well for the uk contingent (and swissloc) at least.

but man u need to improve pronto. nearly undine early in the first half gainst lille

[RobbertJan]

yeah hate admitting it but liverpool deserved to go through, i dislike their way of playing but barca are out of form in the wrong period in the season.

psv through, i'm happy but not exactly deserved, they defended great but without kone their attacks were lacking in creativity, but i guess you don't need that when you've got alex!

the valencia vs inter boxing match was definetly interesting to, i think inter won on points, first with materazzi giving a huge blow, then valencia killing it with navarro breaking burdisso's nose, but then toldo and figo beat him up in the locker room, but a bit sad that this happens at a soccer match.....

[swisloc]

psv through, i'm happy but not exactly deserved, they defended great but without kone their attacks were lacking in creativity, but i guess you don't need that when you've got alex!

the valencia vs inter boxing match was definetly interesting to, i think inter won on points, first with materazzi giving a huge blow, then valencia killing it with navarro breaking burdisso's nose, but then toldo and figo beat him up in the locker room, but a bit sad that this happens at a soccer match.....

hah, yeah... materazzi is ALWAYS in on the fights. there is a reason this dude has been head-butted by zidane AND sheva in champions league last year (not as many people remember that one, but it was almost exactly the same as the zidane head butt, but the ref did see it at all, so no foul given). that said, the navarro punch was sucha cheap shot. I love the photo of the inter guy chasing him down and giving him a flying kick!

superdupersang, as far as the final, i am really liking Man U's chances (as i'm sure you are, too). i also have this weird feeling about Roma, i know on paper they are one of the weekest teams left, but i just have this weird feeling about them, they keep sneaking through. But i'd have to say the power teams remaining are the three English sides.

[RobbertJan]

me to, i hope psv doesn't draw roma, their a bunch of sneaky bastards and totti and mancini are fantastic players. i think their is no big favorite right now, if you look at the teams that have been eliminated and those left, everyone can beat all of the other teams or the other way around. i do fear for man utd when larsson isn't convinced to stay, because if rooney or saha gets injured, they will not have any strikers left that are up for it in the champions league.

[just13]

does anyone like Man U?

i really hope they could win the 3 titles again !!

EPL, CL, FA cup!!

my favourite team is Man U and AC milan

[swisloc]

me to, i hope psv doesn't draw roma, their a bunch of sneaky bastards and totti and mancini are fantastic players. i think their is no big favorite right now, if you look at the teams that have been eliminated and those left, everyone can beat all of the other teams or the other way around. i do fear for man utd when larsson isn't convinced to stay, because if rooney or saha gets injured, they will not have any strikers left that are up for it in the champions league.

agreed 100%. it should be very exciting next round!

[polishmike]

I just hope Man Utd gets Chelsea, that would make my weekend. But knowing our luck Liverpool will get ManU and Chelsea will get PSV.

[ruprecht]

football's coming (back to its heavily mortgaged) home...

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/gallery/2007/mar/09/1?picture=329740281

well, what do reckon, £800 million well spent?

personally, i can't wait to watch berbatov in action during the final.