natural versus synthetic indigo

[cheapmuthafukr]

looks like ringring already did.

If you've lost your faith in superfuture, Oh the end won't be long

Because if it's gone for you then I too may lose it, And that would be wrong

I've tried so hard to keep myself from falling

Back into my bad old ways

And it chars my heart to always hear you calling

Calling for the good old days

Because there were no good old days

These are the good old days

[airfrogusmc]

Paul/Ring and everyone GREAT THREAD. Should be required reading for all denim heads...

THANKS to everyone for sharing their knowledge on this.....

Allen

[ringring]

"it is the level of craftmanship that will make a jean come out superior in the end"

I don't think I could have put it any better. I wish I could have distilled my clumsy musings into one succinct sentance

"You have managed to disabuse me of two apparent myths I had long held dear; natural indigo produces a better fade and that selvage denim, with its cherished inconsistencies, was somehow better..."

LOL. Hey I sincerely hope you take anything I say with a pinch of salt. It's just one point of view, and not necessarily the correct one. Besides I'm as much as a selvedge fan as anybody on here. Some natural indigo selvedge jeans impress me hugely, and I'd consider them the apex of the jeansmakers' craft. My point was to add some caveats to the usual clichés that surround selvedge denim.

"Now hopefully Ring Ring you won't talk me out of the belief that craftmanship is what matters...I think that might be a little more difficult"

I think I may have penned that quote about the Sugarcane fell seams

Edited by ringring on May 17, 2006 at 11:02 AM

[derdankhund]

A final concrete example of construction over natural/synthetic:

A decent number of the 45rpm pieces (at the lower price points) use synthetic indigo, and i don't have any reason to believe their quality is at all questionable; perhaps the fade on the Jomon will in time show itself to be superior, but that is probably due to the sheer number of dips of the strands as opposed to the natural nature of the indigo used over the synthetic in others.

As to selvedge (or natural indigo) being inherently better, I no longer believe this is the case. Rather, I believe the majority of high-end selvedge (with or without natural indigo) being produced is made by companies who focus on every aspect of production at an artisanal level. Thus, these high end selvedges do have an inherent superiority, but it comes directly from the level of care taken by the people producing the selvedge on every level (from dying to weaving), not from the simple fact that they are a selvedge (see the selvedge thread for an in-depth discussion on this, particularly relevant are examples of cheaper selvedge that aren't well-made)...

[derdankhund]

A final concrete example of construction over natural/synthetic:

A decent number of the 45rpm pieces (at the lower price points) use synthetic indigo, and i don't have any reason to believe their quality is at all questionable; perhaps the fade on the Jomon will in time show itself to be superior, but that is probably due to the sheer number of dips of the strands as opposed to the natural nature of the indigo used over the synthetic in others.

As to selvedge (or natural indigo) being inherently better, I no longer believe this is the case. Rather, I believe the majority of high-end selvedge (with or without natural indigo) being produced is made by companies who focus on every aspect of production at an artisanal level. Thus, these high end selvedges do have an inherent superiority, but it comes directly from the level of care taken by the people producing the selvedge on every level (from dying to weaving), not from the simple fact that they are a selvedge (see the selvedge thread for an in-depth discussion on this, particularly relevant are examples of cheaper selvedge that aren't well-made)...

[wild_whiskey]

Quote: A decent number of the 45rpm pieces (at the lower price points) use synthetic indigo, and i don't have any reason to believe their quality is at all questionable; perhaps the fade on the Jomon will in time show itself to be superior, but that is probably due to the sheer number of dips of the strands as opposed to the natural nature of the indigo used over the synthetic in others.

There's a significant difference in color between Jomons and Sorahikos that is the result of the indigo used (synthetic vs. natural). Two pairs of jeans dipped 10 times in Natural indigo vs. jeans dipped 10 times in synthetic are going to look different and fade differently, because despite attempts to avoid this, the chemical make-ups and purity of the two dyes are going to inevitably be different. In principal, they would look the same because the chemical make-up is, in theory, the same, however in practice they appear to be quite different (hell, even two jeans dyed with synthetic from the same batch will differ, although to a lesser degree). The idea that ringring is trying to clear up is that while they are different, one is not necessarily *better* than the other aside from the arguably nerdy history that it is attached to.

It's a little bit different from the selvage vs. non-selvage debate. There is no discernable difference between a swatch of denim from a shuttle loom vs. from a projectile loom when the yarns used are the same thickness and variation. Look at Rag&Bone and APC for examples of this - there are non-selvage R&B jeans, and non-selvage APC jeans (Cure) where the denim is of the same quality between each respective brand's selvage and non-selvage model. Despite this, a lot of denim brands hype the shuttle loom and say that the denim it creates is slubbier, more textured, etc. I don't think anyone will have a straight answer until they sit in front of the two looms and watch it happen.

Edited by wild_whiskey on May 17, 2006 at 04:39 PM

[derdankhund]

I certainly wasn't trying to assert that the color in the jomons and the sorahikos was the same...just that one isn't inherently better simply because of the use of natural indigo...

[wild_whiskey]

Quote:

I certainly wasn't trying to assert that the color in the jomons and the sorahikos was the same...just that one isn't inherently better simply because of the use of natural indigo...

--- Original message by derdankhund on May 17, 2006 06:47 PM

No problem, but my point stands just to clarify for anyone who might have misinterpreted it, like I did.

[derdankhund]

and is the color difference between the jomons and the sorahikos based on the difference between natural and synthetic, or is it based in the number of times the jomon's strands were dipped, or both???

just curious as I don't know how many times the sorahikos are dipped

[the black arm]

Adding dips is just increasing the concentration of indigo on the yarn . . . I think the general concensus is that 6 dips gets a a pretty good quality denim and 16 dips gets you to a point whereby the indigo is actually around 30% of the yarn weight - ie very dark indeed.

The statement above I think answers my question, but I would just like to confirm . . . I have heard indigo saturation in denim quanitified by both "dips" as well as "percent concentration", does concentration refer to the concentration of the indgo IN the yarn or the conentration of indigo in the dye the yarn is dipped into . . I hope that makes sense.

Edited by the black arm on May 17, 2006 at 10:02 PM

Edited by the black arm on May 18, 2006 at 01:10 AM

[ringring]

"is the color difference between the jomons and the sorahikos based on the difference between natural and synthetic, or is it based in the number of times the jomon's strands were dipped, or both???"

That would be narrowing the cause of colour difference down to 2 possibilities (synth v natural and/or dip count). But there are far more variables than that and each will have a bearing on colour. You would have to assume both jeans had the same:

cotton

pre-dyeing preparation of cotton

same spinning

same reducing agent in vat

same PH in vat

same dip time

same yarn volume and circulation in vat

same vat

same oxidation time and climate

same finishing methods

etc.

That's not taking into account other stuff they may throw into the vat. (eg Madder in a natural vat).

There's a very high chance that none of those are the same for the two denims in question.

"I have heard indigo saturation in denim quanitified by both "dips" as well as "percent concentration", does concentration refer to the concentration of the indgo IN the yarn or the conentration of indigo in the dye the yarn is dipped into"

Counting the number of dips is a common way to describe the amount of indigo one can expect on denim. More dips = darker denim. Measuring the actual amount of indigo on denim would be to determine the weight of indigo as a percentage of the weight of yarn. Each dip will roughly add a couple of percent of indigo per weight of yarn.

[walletboy]

Though I love both, I know lot more about the quality factors of men's suits than I do about jeans. A great coat and trousers from Armani, Versace or whoever is "great" because of the way it fits, and very little else. If it's any good, it makes the wearer look taller, thinner, in better shape, sexier, richer, more athletic or some combination of the above. Stuff such as the stitching of the seams, the weave of the fabric, where the fabric is produced etc. etc. don't mean a thing on a suit unless it it makes the suit look better on you. Maybe I'm just missing the point.

[ringring]

"the weave of the fabric, where the fabric is produced etc. etc. don't mean a thing on a suit unless it it makes the suit look better on you"

The fabric and the stitching are both of enormous significance in tailoring. Whether you go to a tailor and pick your own fabric out or whether you trust a designer brand like Armani to pick out the fabric for you, it's just as important, if not more so, as the denim on jeans.

And what looks better on you is highly subjective , as your two examples of Armani & Versace illustrate. They are almost polar opposites. Same goes for jeans. It's a broad church with room for many tastes and interests.

[wild_whiskey]

Quote:

Though I love both, I know lot more about the quality factors of men's suits than I do about jeans. A great coat and trousers from Armani, Versace or whoever is "great" because of the way it fits, and very little else. If it's any good, it makes the wearer look taller, thinner, in better shape, sexier, richer, more athletic or some combination of the above. Stuff such as the stitching of the seams, the weave of the fabric, where the fabric is produced etc. etc. don't mean a thing on a suit unless it it makes the suit look better on you. Maybe I'm just missing the point.

--- Original message by walletboy on May 18, 2006 01:25 PM

The weave of the fabric and the stitching absolutely has an affect on how it fits you. Weaves of certain weight will drape more, or less, which drastically changes the appearance of how the suit fits. Stitching around the shoulders can turn something from a structured British style to deconstructionist Belgian to soft-shouldered American. Also, solid construction, particularly having a canvassed front, also creates drastic changes on how the suit wrinkles and drapes when buttoned and when walking.

Denim is the same way. Subtleties can make a huge difference. For example, 5EP's hand-laid inseam has a distinct look to it that enhances the aesthetic quite a bit.

[mizanation]

this is a great thread!

http://mizanation.blogspot.com

[urban sprawl]

Quote:

this is a great thread!

--- Original message by mizanation on May 18, 2006 05:52 PM

finally! i agree.

long time ago, ringring and i discussed the matter of dyeing. for denim it is as important as the construction of the weave.

as you guys know there are lots of variants to dye the weft yarn - the main ones are an industrial synthesis of indigo (pure indigo) eg: sulphur dye, reactive dye, mordant dye etc, or the traditional natural indigo dye.

nowadays the market is filled w/ synthetic indigo b/c of the same reason of using jetloom denim. the process to have natural indigo is so costly and time-consuming (fermantation...) that people can't effort it and don't want to.

but there's also another reason: natural indigo fastens so strongly on the yarn that if you want to create whiskers and chevrons, or have medium indigo shade, it takes more time which means more money.

(side note: many japanese mills nowadays weave natural indigo in india which makes it half expensive)

usually you can see the difference between natural and synthetic indigo (much easier than selvedge vs. non-selvedge). the nat indigo is much richer and generally more reddish-grey. but as ringring noted it also depends how you dye it eg: temperature of water and air, humidity, etc.

as any garment, the balance/ shape, stitching/ construction is very important. you can't cut+sew denim in "ordinary" garment factory unless you don't want for instance felled seams and chainstitches. by saying that you also want a great "needle" work. this depends which machines they use and also what kind of thread. there're so many kinds of thread (100% cotton, cotton wrap poly, poly etc) too.

and not to forget what kind of hardware (shanks, burr/rivets)...

i don't even wanna start talking about the wet and dry process which is whole nother thread!

these are all components which makes a superb pair of denim. not many respect this...

[john11f]

I have to agree, the extent in to which sc go into details making the edo ai. i suppose the natural indigo used could be the only obvious way to highlight the effort in making the jeans. I guess that applies to all other premium denim brands.

[ringring]

"finally! i agree." What do you mean finally ? LOL Great post, as usual.

Back to the Edo Ai - note that there's at least 2 versions of the Edos - the 'green' pair with the dragon on the lather patch and the buckleback-one-back-pocket style - which has a completely different tone of blue.

Darker, and more blue, less green. Illustrating perfectly that you can get different colours using natural indigo.

[asfberg]

jomons, worn pretty much everyday for the last 5 or 6 weeks, and sporadically (a week here and there) since october last year

tried to get the color as accurate as possible but it's never entirely possible as the look changes a lot with varying lighting

[Geowu]

thanks asfberg

you should teach the Japanese online stores to take pics.

[wild_whiskey]

asfberg, great pictures great jeans.

urban sprawl, I know what you mean. It's been awhile since there's been a really in-depth discussion about dyeing or construction around these parts.

This thread is great.

[trinket]

Thought I'd include this old link to some previous indigo discussions.

http://www.superfuture.com/city/supertalk/index.cfm?page=topic&topicID=5027&start=1

_trinket

[the black arm]

Each dip will roughly add a couple of percent of indigo per weight of yarn.

Thanks ringring, that makes sense with what I've been told, as a rule of thumb 1 dip is approximagely equal to 2% indigo concentration on denim as % of weight . . . keep the great info coming!

[alitarbegshe]

Quote:

"finally! i agree." What do you mean finally ? LOL Great post, as usual.

Back to the Edo Ai - note that there's at least 2 versions of the Edos - the 'green' pair with the dragon on the lather patch and the buckleback-one-back-pocket style - which has a completely different tone of blue.

Darker, and more blue, less green. Illustrating perfectly that you can get different colours using natural indigo.

--- Original message by ringring on May 20, 2006 09:23 AM

I think the buckle back Edo Ai's are made of a mixture of natural and synthetic dye, which may contribute to the diference in shade as well.

Edited by alitarbegshe on May 21, 2006 at 03:06 AM

Edited by alitarbegshe on May 21, 2006 at 03:07 AM

[ringring]

You're right. Thanks for the correction.

As another comparison, the Hawaii's, all-natural Edo Ai's, Pure Blue AI's, Pigboy XXX-26 and 45 Jomons all are natural indigo and different shades of blue.

Edited by ringring on May 21, 2006 at 04:28 AM

[urban sprawl]

Quote:

You're right. Thanks for the correction.

As another comparison, the Hawaii's, all-natural Edo Ai's, Pure Blue AI's, Pigboy XXX-26 and 45 Jomons all are natural indigo and different shades of blue.

Edited by ringring on May 21, 2006 at 04:28 AM

--- Original message by ringring on May 21, 2006 04:22 AM

then there's the studio sd-d01, sd-d02, sd-101xx, sd-103xx, yen lot105ni, what else ring?

btw, i forgot to mention that the most consistent and strongest dyeing method is "rope dye". here yarns are bundled in the shape of a rope and soaked in a large bath, pulled up and oxidized in the air. this process is repeated by 8-9 times until the color is fixed as planned. especially oxidation treatment is a key to sharpen the color of indigo. most of the selvedge or better denim fabric is rope-dyed. just fyi;)

[urban sprawl]

Quote:

You're right. Thanks for the correction.

As another comparison, the Hawaii's, all-natural Edo Ai's, Pure Blue AI's, Pigboy XXX-26 and 45 Jomons all are natural indigo and different shades of blue.

Edited by ringring on May 21, 2006 at 04:28 AM

--- Original message by ringring on May 21, 2006 04:22 AM

then there's the studio sd-d01, sd-d02, sd-101xx, sd-103xx, yen lot105ni, what else ring?

btw, i forgot to mention that the most consistent and strongest dyeing method is "rope dye". here yarns are bundled in the shape of a rope and soaked in a large bath, pulled up and oxidized in the air. this process is repeated by 8-9 times until the color is fixed as planned. especially oxidation treatment is a key to sharpen the color of indigo. most of the selvedge or better denim fabric is rope-dyed. just fyi;)

[ringring]

"then there's the studio sd-d01, sd-d02, sd-101xx, sd-103xx, yen lot105ni, what else ring?"

Off the top of my head, Nudie Veggies, Howies Truthsters, SD 25 anniversary, Aihikos...

[ilovespaz]

i think ringring is a reincarnation of Levi Strauss himself....

booty clap contest anyone?.......

[takashi]

Also Samurai S510XX-AI (limited edition like the SD 11MW repros)