Please date these Levi's!

[bruben]

Hi all! I'm new to the vintage scene and could use a little bit of help. I have these Levi's at home. Here are the details, see the links for pictures.

<ul>

* Single stitching

* hidden rivets

* button fly

* NOTHING on back of top button

* LS&CO-SF rivets

* stitching is gold in color, except the McDonald's arch on pockets is slightly lighter (what's the correct name for the McDonald's arch?)

* selvedge looks like it used to be red stitching that has faded to a light pink

* NO tags whatsoever

* back of all beltloops (inside the waistband) is stiched with a dark sage green thread

* no selvedge in coin pocket

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/brubend/rivets.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/brubend/selvedge.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/brubend/outseam.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/brubend/levirear.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/brubend/levifront.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/brubend/inseam.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/brubend/hiddenrivets.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/brubend/coinpocket.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/brubend/beltloopthread.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/brubend/bigE.jpg

Please feel free to ask questions about anything I missed. Like I said, I'm new! I can take additional pictures as well.

THANKS!

Betsy

[jdavis]

Hi Betsy, i can give you a bit of help

the golden arch on the back pocket - aka the 'arcuates' - meets with a diamond. this is found on all 1947+ Levis. the hidden rivets were in place untill 1966, at which time they were discontinued.

i'd venture out and guess that its a mid 50s to mid 60s design.. only because the card stock of the rear tag wasn't as strong as leather... and could therefore wear-off easier.. also presumably the absense of coin pocket selvage would occur later on in the big E generation... like perhaps closer to 1966

unfortunately, i don't know too much about rivets or buttons or coin pocket selvage (but i'd really like too)

hope this helps

what does everyone else think?

[sweet orr]

Quote:

Hi Betsy, i can give you a bit of help

the golden arch on the back pocket - aka the 'arcuates' - meets with a diamond. this is found on all 1947+ Levis. the hidden rivets were in place untill 1966, at which time they were discontinued.

i'd venture out and guess that its a mid 50s to mid 60s design.. only because the card stock of the rear tag wasn't as strong as leather... and could therefore wear-off easier.. also presumably the absense of coin pocket selvage would occur later on in the big E generation... like perhaps closer to 1966

unfortunately, i don't know too much about rivets or buttons or coin pocket selvage (but i'd really like too)

hope this helps

what does everyone else think?

--- Original message by jdavis on Jul 22, 2005 05:01 PM

check to see if red tab has levis on one side or on both. if levis is on one side only than its an earlier 1947 to 1950 model. the hidden rivits were used until 1965, so its late 40s to early 60s. hidden rivit jeans are referd to by collectors as xx.

xx jeans are classified to 3 periods, late 40s to early 1950s which had the real leather patch, mid 50s to early 1960s with the paper patch that read "every garment garunteed", and the 1960s models had that slogan removed from the paper patch. check to see if there are any rements of the leather patch left. also, some earlier xx models had rivit tacks in the rear pockets that were steel and not copper. often you see early xx jeans with rust stains near the pockets. later ones all had copper. ive seen them both ways on leather patch models. im going to guess by the photos provided they are mid 1950s. check the red tab, it will help answer questions.

sweet-orr

[sweet orr]

Quote:

Hi Betsy, i can give you a bit of help

the golden arch on the back pocket - aka the 'arcuates' - meets with a diamond. this is found on all 1947+ Levis. the hidden rivets were in place untill 1966, at which time they were discontinued.

i'd venture out and guess that its a mid 50s to mid 60s design.. only because the card stock of the rear tag wasn't as strong as leather... and could therefore wear-off easier.. also presumably the absense of coin pocket selvage would occur later on in the big E generation... like perhaps closer to 1966

unfortunately, i don't know too much about rivets or buttons or coin pocket selvage (but i'd really like too)

hope this helps

what does everyone else think?

--- Original message by jdavis on Jul 22, 2005 05:01 PM

the coin pocket with selvedge varies. i have 2 pairs 501xx leather patch jeans with no coin pocket selvedge and a 503bxx model from the same period that has it. i think it really depended on how the markers were laid out during production to have minimum fabric waste. also, sometimes you will see the fly placket and button placket cut in differant grain directions.

sweet-orr

[bruben]

The red tab has LEVIS on one side only.

About the rear tag - there isn't any stitching to indicate that it was even there. What does that mean?

How do I know what model these jeans are? 501? 506?

What about the selvedge with the red / pink stitching? Does anyone think the pink stitching used to be red?

Thanks so much for all the help! This is SO interesting!

Betsy

[Guest]

well if the red tab is one-sided then late 40's then (hey we tried didn't we sweet orr)..... which would mean it would have a leather patch. if there isn't any traces of it, it must have been removed but for what reason i couldn't even guess...

did you get them from a reliable source? did the person that gave them to you tell you anything about them?

as for the selvage, the redline often fades to pink. that said... lady levis used a pink selvage .. but that'd be a whole other post

i'm really surprised that there are no tags. (have you turned it inside out as well? ) and your very right.. this is SO interesting

as for the model of jean, from the pics it looks like it has 5 buttons in the fly opening which seems pretty standard 501. umm don't quote me on this one but wasn't the 506 an orange tab lower-rise zipper fly with a narrower ankle opening?

[jdavis]

if the red tab is single sided then its late 40's after all (hey we tried didn't we sweet orr?), and it would have had a leather patch. if it isn't there it must have been removed - although i couldn't begin to guess why - as it certainly left the factory with a patch of some kind.

did you get them from a reliable source? what else do you know about them?

as for the selvage, the redline often fades to pink. that said, lady levis used a pink selvage ...but thats a whole other post...

i have to say i'm very surprised that there are no tags at all.. (have you turned them completely inside out as well?)

well you're definately right this is SO interesting

and as for the model of jean, from one of your pics it looks like there are 5 buttons on the fly opening, which seems like a standard 501. also... and don't quote me on this.. but wasn't the 506 a later generation orange tab with a lower rise, zipper fly and a narrower leg opening?

[darknworn]

based on what i know, i would date these jeans either pre-WWII or late 40s. the primary reason being the offset beltloop was used from 50-66, and the single sided levi's print was from 37-50. pre-37, you would have the suspender buttons. the interesting part is your jeans does not have the crotch rivet, which was still found on the 37 model. i suspect this pair was made pre-WWII or late 40s as we all know the WWII period jeans have painted arcuates. so...late 30's or late 40s would be my best estimate.

or...it's a very good fake

your best bet would be sending these pictures to levi's themselves and get an official estimate.

anyhow, you have something very interesting on your hands.

"God is Dead" - Neitzsche

"Neitzsche is Dead" - God

Edited by darknworn on Jul 22, 2005 at 10:50 PM

[sweet orr]

Quote:

if the red tab is single sided then its late 40's after all (hey we tried didn't we sweet orr?), and it would have had a leather patch. if it isn't there it must have been removed - although i couldn't begin to guess why - as it certainly left the factory with a patch of some kind.

did you get them from a reliable source? what else do you know about them?

as for the selvage, the redline often fades to pink. that said, lady levis used a pink selvage ...but thats a whole other post...

i have to say i'm very surprised that there are no tags at all.. (have you turned them completely inside out as well?)

well you're definately right this is SO interesting

and as for the model of jean, from one of your pics it looks like there are 5 buttons on the fly opening, which seems like a standard 501. also... and don't quote me on this.. but wasn't the 506 a later generation orange tab with a lower rise, zipper fly and a narrower leg opening?

--- Original message by jdavis on Jul 22, 2005 10:06 PM

leather patch more often is missing. if they were washed in a machine and heat dried the patch would dry up or fall apart. sometimes you see the patch all shrivelled up. but they usually dont stand the test of time. leather patch makes the jeans very valuable.

old levis didnt have any inner tags at all. sometimes you will find a few numbers stamped on the pocket bags.

its also unusual to see a bright red selvedge line on vintage . even my close to deadstock redlines look a little more pink.

the blank back shank tack on top button is fairly common. also, from your picture it looks like the button tacks on the fly are darker than the top button. are they oxidized-rusted steel or are they copper? ive never seen copper back tacks on authentic levis.

they are 501. xx models only came in

501xx-5 button fly shrink to fit

501zxx-zipper fly shrink to fit

551zxx-pre-shrunk 14 oz zipper

503bxx-boys 3 button fly shrink to fit

503zxx-boys zipper shrink to fit

505xx-1960s replaced 501zxx

701xx-womens

there are few other but the above are most common.

506 is pegged orange tab zip fly.

sweet-orr

[Guest]

Quote:

based on what i know, i would date these jeans either pre-WWII or late 40s. the primary reason being the offset beltloop was used from 50-66, and the single sided levi's print was from 37-50. pre-37, you would have the suspender buttons. the interesting part is your jeans does not have the crotch rivet, which was still found on the 37 model. i suspect this pair was made pre-WWII or late 40s as we all know the WWII period jeans have painted arcuates. so...late 30's or late 40s would be my best estimate.

or...it's a very good fake

your best bet would be sending these pictures to levi's themselves and get an official estimate.

anyhow, you have something very interesting on your hands.

--- Original message by darknworn on Jul 22, 2005 10:43 PM

pre ww2 models were usually bucklebacks with the crotch rivit and hand stitched arcuates. late 30s would usually have had the buckle, they indefinatly removed the buckle at ww2. they did however make non buckleback / non crotch rivit 501 in the late 30s for a few years. at this time the 501xx that still had the buckle were stamped as 501XXc (cinch-i guess) on the leather patch. this is rare, ive only seen photos.

what is odd to me is that all buckleback models have the arcuate done in single needle- and is uneven. i have never seen a non-buckleback model with a single stitched arcuate. its seems odd to me that levis would have done the arcuate one way on buckleback models (single needle) and a differant way (double needle with the "triangle") on non buckleback models during the same time period. this leads me to believe that her jeans are post ww2.

the white part of selvedge is sometimes differant on pre 1940s models. sometimes a wider white selvedge edge is present.

[sweet orr]

Quote:

based on what i know, i would date these jeans either pre-WWII or late 40s. the primary reason being the offset beltloop was used from 50-66, and the single sided levi's print was from 37-50. pre-37, you would have the suspender buttons. the interesting part is your jeans does not have the crotch rivet, which was still found on the 37 model. i suspect this pair was made pre-WWII or late 40s as we all know the WWII period jeans have painted arcuates. so...late 30's or late 40s would be my best estimate.

or...it's a very good fake

your best bet would be sending these pictures to levi's themselves and get an official estimate.

anyhow, you have something very interesting on your hands.

--- Original message by darknworn on Jul 22, 2005 10:43 PM

pre ww2 models were usually bucklebacks with the crotch rivit and hand stitched arcuates. late 30s would usually have had the buckle, they indefinatly removed the buckle at ww2. they did however make non buckleback / non crotch rivit 501 in the late 30s for a few years. at this time the 501xx that still had the buckle were stamped as 501XXc (cinch-i guess) on the leather patch. this is rare, ive only seen photos.

what is odd to me is that all buckleback models have the arcuate done in single needle- and is uneven. i have never seen a non-buckleback model with a single stitched arcuate. its seems odd to me that levis would have done the arcuate one way on buckleback models (single needle) and a differant way (double needle with the "triangle") on non buckleback models during the same time period. this leads me to believe that her jeans are post ww2.

the white part of selvedge is sometimes differant on pre 1940s models. sometimes a wider white selvedge edge is present.

sweet-orr

[bruben]

I got these jeans at the Goodwill for $4.95.

I turned the jeans inside out, no tags at all, and nothing stamped on the pocket bags. If it had a leather tag, how was the tag attached?

On the back of all the hidden rivets (and only the hidden rivets) is the number 15. Mean anything?

The button tacks on the fly are copper (I think). The back shank on the top button is not copper, it appears to be the same kind of metal as the front of the buttons. 5 buttons total.

Where do I send the pictures to Levi's? Is it on their website?

[darknworn]

for authentication:

http://www.us.levi.com/spr05a/levi/help/l_help_pq.jsp?bmUID=1122145596567&help=value

"God is Dead" - Nietzsche

"Neitzsche is Dead" - God

[Guest]

Quote:

I got these jeans at the Goodwill for $4.95.

I turned the jeans inside out, no tags at all, and nothing stamped on the pocket bags. If it had a leather tag, how was the tag attached?

On the back of all the hidden rivets (and only the hidden rivets) is the number 15. Mean anything?

The button tacks on the fly are copper (I think). The back shank on the top button is not copper, it appears to be the same kind of metal as the front of the buttons. 5 buttons total.

Where do I send the pictures to Levi's? Is it on their website?

--- Original message by bruben on Jul 23, 2005 11:21 AM

leather patch would have been just be sewn on on the wearers right back waistband, sometimes the thread thats left holds down a little piece of leather after the patch falls off.

from the information you've provided id say that they authentic vintage. depending on the size, these would go on ebay from between 500 and 1200 dollars depending on whos bidding. you could expect to pay more at a high end vintage retail store. they are very nice, although not super rare in this condition. if they were darker they would be more valuable. it is extremely unusual to find something like this at a goodwill though.

the only thing that is wierd is the button fly tacks. if the tacks are copper, ive never seen that. im pretty sure universal fastners (who made and still makes all levis hardware) at the time only made steel 2 prong tacks that are used to attach buttons. now, they are brass based (to prevent rusting) and finishes (like copper,nickle etc) are plated on. solid copper was too weak and soft for that type of tack.

the rear tacks sometimes have numbers or letters on them. if there is no number on the back of the top button than sometimes they are on the rear pocket rivits. the numbers are coded to record which sewing facilty produced the jeans and or lots. levis still uses this type of coding today. i do not know where "15" is.

there is one more test to check authenticity. it is to see if the sewing thread has polyster in it. vintage xx levi jeans have all cotton thread. repros rarely have all cotton thread, only a few japanese companies use it, and i doubt you would find them at an american goodwill. anyways, pull a loose piece of the thread about 3/4" or in 1" long from somewhere on the jean and burn it. if it just burns with no residue than its all cotton, if it goes out and kind of leaves a tiny black melted "ball" on the end than it has poly content.

im not sure where to send pictures to levis but i think that the messages that were posted here are all give enough information to determine the model, approximate age and value. levis does have other details recorded to further approximate a closer date, but almoust all the major ones were touched apon in this message thread. the exact year of a leather patch 501xx model doesnt really affect value as much as the size, condition, color, character, etc..

hope this helps.

[sweet orr]

Quote:

I got these jeans at the Goodwill for $4.95.

I turned the jeans inside out, no tags at all, and nothing stamped on the pocket bags. If it had a leather tag, how was the tag attached?

On the back of all the hidden rivets (and only the hidden rivets) is the number 15. Mean anything?

The button tacks on the fly are copper (I think). The back shank on the top button is not copper, it appears to be the same kind of metal as the front of the buttons. 5 buttons total.

Where do I send the pictures to Levi's? Is it on their website?

--- Original message by bruben on Jul 23, 2005 11:21 AM

based on the info you gave and the pictures id say they are authentic vintage. i would say that if put on ebay depending on the size and whos bidding, you would get between 500 and 1200 dollars. they arnt super rare in this condition, but still an amazing find at goodwill. darker pairs with patches in tact fetch more money.

there is one more test to check authenticity. vintage xx levis have all cotton thread. not many repros, except a few small japanese companies use all cotton thread. modern thread has poly content in it. take a loose piece of the sewing thread about 3/4" to 1" long and burn it. if the thread just burns with no residue left over its all cotton, if when it stops there is a little black "ball" it has poly content.

the button fly shanks are actually copper and not oxidised, ive never seen that. im pretty sure that universal fasteners (who made and still makes all levis hardware) at the time only made steel 2 prong tacks that were used to attach buttons. now they use brass(to prevent rusting) and plate them to look like diffant metals (copper, nickle etc..)copper was too soft and weak for this type of tack.

sometimes you will see a number or letter on the back of the top button or rear rivit tacks. these numbers or letters were used to code which facilty or the garment came from. levis still uses this today. i do not know where "15" is.

i dont know the levis sight to send pictures, but id say that all the info you recieved on this message thread from here is enough to tell you that based on the information you have provided you have an authentic 501xx leather patch model. leather patch xx models value isnt so much affected by the exact year, but more by size, color, condition, character etc..

hope this helps

sweet-orr

[bruben]

Wow! You guys are so informative!! Thanks so much!

Just did the thread test, 100% cotton is the verdit.

Edited by bruben on Jul 23, 2005 at 01:01 PM

[johnmc]

I would say definately 1947-50, nice jeans!