Lee 101b's

[CAFC]

So you know those Lee 101b repros that are - for want of a better term - half-selvedge, do they count as true selvedge? I mean the 'selvedge' side with the green or yellow thread always looks ragged and kind of unfinished.

[tweeds]

this thread on half selvedge might answer your question...

http://www.superfuture.com/supertalk/showthread.php?t=7156

the jeans are made from wider rolls of denim, hence the half-selvedge.

[ang_kangkong]

Sorry for the hijack, but this is about Lee 101b.

I'm looking for the 101bs that look like this:

The longer back pocket, the white stitching on the pockets with red stitching on the top, the painted label... also, if you look closely, there's a suspender button on it, and a cinchback.

Any help would be appreciated.

[watchman]

aren't those 101z's?

[ang_kangkong]

Almost.

There's a buckle in the back, and suspender buttons. And supposedly (which is why I'm looking for it) it's got a looser fit.

[watchman]

no i'm saying i thought the picture was of 101z's. I may be mistaken

[No -]

My girl just got her 101z slimmed in the legs and had all the selvedge taken off.. chicks look nice in slim jeans..

[ang_kangkong]

no i'm saying i thought the picture was of 101z's. I may be mistaken

Gotcha.

I edited the post to point out the cinchback and the little suspender button, so someone doesn't refer me to the the Z.

[sbbbjm]

i have the 101z in that version. i think this line is pretty hard to come by now since they were a limited edition.

i snagged mine off ebay . . . some pop up on there very, sporadically.

[No -]

So you know those Lee 101b repros that are - for want of a better term - half-selvedge, do they count as true selvedge? I mean the 'selvedge' side with the green or yellow thread always looks ragged and kind of unfinished.

But going back to the topic.. I still consider it 'selvedge'. When I saw it for the first time I thought it was weird. But it's still selvedge to me. Here's a pic before it was cut off:

[cheapmuthafukr]

yeah... thats the selvage form a wide projectile loom. notice how the edge is loose... that is where the weft threads were cut off. shuttle loom selvage is clean, as the weft threads are looped around the last warp thread and back thru the fabric.

[snugglepony]

terminology question: selvage (the word) is generally accepted to be a portmanteau combining "self" and "edge," yeah? if that's the case, doesn't any fabric edge not woven back into itself fail to meet that definition? obviously, they've loaded the looms at the edge with warp and weft yarns colored to look like a true selvage, but that's about it...

[Amada]

Yes. Any fabric that creates the edge itself is technically self-edge, or selvedge/selvage (AFAIK). That's not what you'll find in the marketplace, though. It might be due to how - if you look at the fabric in the picture above - the left piece is held together by thread, which could be argued is not part of the original fabric. I'd consider that half-selvage. That's not to say it's inferior.

If I'm wrong, someone correct me please.

[snugglepony]

Yes. Any fabric that creates the edge itself is technically self-edge, or selvedge/selvage (AFAIK). That's not what you'll find in the marketplace, though. It might be due to how - if you look at the fabric in the picture above - the left piece is held together by thread, which could be argued is not part of the original fabric. I'd consider that half-selvage. That's not to say it's inferior.

If I'm wrong, someone correct me please.

the thing is, the above photo is a fake half-selvage. half selvage jeans certainly exist (old lees used a half selvage -- serge's old signature), but these are not them -- they're just a standard jet loom denim, cut off on both sides, but they've thrown some different colored yarns into the mix on one side to fool you. both sides should be overlock stitched to prevent unraveling, but again, they're attempting to convince you that the denim is something it's not.

[tweeds]

okay i'm trying to find a post...but i can't. if i recall rightly the jet-loom selvedge always has the leftover weft, but i don't think it unravels on its own the way an overlocked edge will if the overlock stitch is removed, ie. it is still a woven device that prevents the edge from unravelling.

[cheapmuthafukr]

tip... yr right. that is the selvage edge from a projectile loom. it is the edge of the fabric, and does not unravel on its own. if you trimmed the loose threads down to the edge of the fabric youd barely notice the difference. i had a pair of levis .... lot 54 i think they are called.... and they had a selvage like this. after months of wear it never unraveled in the slightest.

if it is ring ring denim, the quality should be there.

its not really fake selvage either... just not shuttle loom selvage.

[snugglepony]

okay i'm trying to find a post...but i can't. if i recall rightly the jet-loom selvedge always has the leftover weft, but i don't think it unravels on its own the way an overlocked edge will if the overlock stitch is removed, ie. it is still a woven device that prevents the edge from unravelling.

i can't find anything specific myself, but it'd be nice if serge or paul t or ring-ring would weigh in (bat signal?). i really, in my heart of hearts, believe that a true selvage only comes from a shuttle loom. weft yarns on a projectile loom, afaik, are not woven back around to form a finished edge. trimming these excess yarns makes the edge more presentable, certainly, but it doesn't properly finish them -- there's nothing to keep warp yarns from coming off and causing the weft to fray...

that's my gut feeling, anyhow. denim oracles -- you out there?

EDIT: found this in the "half selvage vs. full selvage thread." see the last line.

[cheapmuthafukr]

i guess that brings us to the question... why does selvage matter?

[snugglepony]

i guess that brings us to the question... why does selvage matter?

the romance of the shuttle loom? diligently returning weft threads to the weave, day after day...

doesn't that just tug at your heartstrings?

[cheapmuthafukr]

the romance of the shuttle loom? diligently returning weft threads to the weave, day after day...

doesn't that just tug at your heartstrings?

oh course... but at the end of the day, besides the senitmental value, what does it add but 100$ to the price?

[snugglepony]

besides a prettier turn-up (which i never really wear, anyway...), not much!

we've all seen examples of seriously excellent fades, cuts, drapes, etc. on all types of denim, selvage and non-... my original question what just an attempt to define our terms.

[swisloc]

as has been mentioned often on this forum; ALL woven fabric has selvage/selvedge when it comes off the loom (projectile, shuttle, or otherwise). CMF is absolutely correct in assesing the picture as selvage from a projectile room and acurate in stating that the reason projectile selvage shows open weft threads is that in production on a projectile loom the weft threads are brought through the warp individualy and cut; on a shuttle loom the weft is looped back through after wrapping the last warp thread. a full piece of fabric woven on a shuttle loom has one long weft thread woven back and forth over the course of the entire length. on a projectile loom they are single threads that are cut. the selvage is very simply the edge warp threads of woven fabric which prevent fraying, the term does not imply shuttle loom, and is used frequently throughout the textile industry to discuss fabrics that have no history of shuttle loom weaving.

these are simply two different techniques; one allowing wider fabric (projectile). there is no quality implication on just being wider.

[tweeds]

i can't find anything specific myself, but it'd be nice if serge or paul t or ring-ring would weigh in (bat signal?). i really, in my heart of hearts, believe that a true selvage only comes from a shuttle loom. weft yarns on a projectile loom, afaik, are not woven back around to form a finished edge. trimming these excess yarns makes the edge more presentable, certainly, but it doesn't properly finish them -- there's nothing to keep warp yarns from coming off and causing the weft to fray...

that's my gut feeling, anyhow. denim oracles -- you out there?

EDIT: found this in the "half selvage vs. full selvage thread." see the last line.

snuggles - if i'm not wrong the selvedge is merely any woven finish (whether closed or not) that acts as a device preventing the edge from unravelling. i spoke to a friend of mine who's in fashion school and he couldn't understand why i kept calling my redlines "selvedge" denim, because technically all denim is selvedged. all woven fabrics have a selvedge, and shuttle-loomed denim is merely a narrower cousin of the jet loom.

certainly the Lee finish is not the "redline" as we would call it, nor is it narrow-loomed. so in that respect i guess we could say it's not true "selvedge" (in the denimhead context), but it does have an selvedged finish.

edit: i guess i just repeated what swisloc said before i read the whole thread clearly. basically the point is the same...

swisloc, were you the one who initially brought up the technical definition of selvedge in its strictest sense to the discussion? i recall somebody making this exact point much earlier than this thread. i just can't find the thing.

[CAFC]

the thing is, the above photo is a fake half-selvage. half selvage jeans certainly exist (old lees used a half selvage -- serge's old signature), but these are not them -- they're just a standard jet loom denim, cut off on both sides, but they've thrown some different colored yarns into the mix on one side to fool you. both sides should be overlock stitched to prevent unraveling, but again, they're attempting to convince you that the denim is something it's not.

But surely a company as selvedge-savvy as Lee wouldn't try and fool people into buying fake selvedge...

[tweeds]

CAFC, they aren't. they're just using a wider denim with a different selvedge nowadays on their half-selvedges...

[swisloc]

edit: i guess i just repeated what swisloc said before i read the whole thread clearly. basically the point is the same...

swisloc, were you the one who initially brought up the technical definition of selvedge in its strictest sense to the discussion? i recall somebody making this exact point much earlier than this thread. i just can't find the thing.

no, as you can see, i don't post much. I believe the first group to bring this up was the ringring, serge, paul T trinity a year and a half ago (approx.). My girlfriend is a textile designer and a ridiculously deep source of info, and when she's not making fun of me for a mild denim obsession, she's showing me textile books detailing all of the processes tossed around on this forum.

Seriously, selvage gets all the attention because it's easily visible (and equally easy to make unique by substituting different colored warp threads), but the real quality difference is in the yarn. The open-end/ringspun debate gets time on here, but not due time. and as ringring has said, at some point, some of the original projectile looms produced amazing fabric. it's just a different technique, that's all.

[tweeds]

your girlfriend is cool

the point about selvedge being unrelated to quality today is one that has been made over and over again on the forums, but constantly ignored. people still assume that selvedge = good, nonselvedge = crap, and hence the question "is it selvedge" takes on undue importance in a jean.

that said, i would rather have (if economically sensible) the selvedge line running down the ends of my seams, if for nothing else apart from a really good feeling.

on quality - neilfuji from kato denim mentions that even the cotton harvest has to be a good quality, the method of dyeing...the list goes on. it's quite mind-numbing to even imagine.

[swisloc]

your girlfriend is cool

agreed. she makes a lot of clothes. i'm trying to convince her to make me jeans.

that said, i would rather have (if economically sensible) the selvedge line running down the ends of my seams, if for nothing else apart from a really good feeling.

yeah, i feel the same way even though i know better. although, i must say, most of the brands that interest me with high quality yarns and dyes also offer full selvage outseams, so...

on quality - neilfuji from kato denim mentions that even the cotton harvest has to be a good quality, the method of dyeing...the list goes on. it's quite mind-numbing to even imagine.

definitely. this is why i've never understood why a company like FULLCOUNT doesn't get more play as they market themselves on their yarn quality (zimbabwe cotton). I think i've seen maybe two posts of people who've bought their jeans. then you have to also include construction. if we appreciate the finished quality a full selvage outseam offers, than shouldn't we appreaciate a felled inseam as well? this is another point that ringring always used to harp on. very few companies do it, and as far as i know, none of the prized japanese companies; they all do overlocked inseams.

[snugglepony]

snuggles - if i'm not wrong the selvedge is merely any woven finish (whether closed or not) that acts as a device preventing the edge from unravelling. i spoke to a friend of mine who's in fashion school and he couldn't understand why i kept calling my redlines "selvedge" denim, because technically all denim is selvedged. all woven fabrics have a selvedge, and shuttle-loomed denim is merely a narrower cousin of the jet loom.

certainly the Lee finish is not the "redline" as we would call it, nor is it narrow-loomed. so in that respect i guess we could say it's not true "selvedge" (in the denimhead context), but it does have an selvedged finish.

first off: what a bunch of dorks, huh? sometimes it's good to be a dork...

anyhow, as i think i intimated in my earlier posts, my interest in this topic is really an etymological one. i've been reading about, and learning about, and being wrong about, and figuring why i was wrong about denim on this board for long enough that i understand that a red (or blue or green or pink) line in a jean's selvage has only a tenuous bearing on quality...

so, word origins... the self-edge. to my mind, this implies a continuation of the weave back into itself, neatly closing and finishing the fabric edge (is this something we can all agree on? the edge is made of and by itself). i think it makes sense to assume that prior to the existence of jet looms, the literal self-edge was a near-universal feature of woven fabrics. because of its universality, in time i imagine the word "selvage" came to be used as a descriptor of the fabric edge itself as well as a (quite vivid) descriptor of the method of edging.

so along comes the jet loom, and one of these meanings of the word selvage no longer applies. the term now really applies to the edge of any woven fabric, and any means (durable, elegant, "self" or not...) applied to finishing that edge. here's a pretty comprehensive definition i pulled from a dictionary of textile terminology:

Selvedge <list>

The longitudinal edges of a fabric that are formed during weaving with the weft not only turning at the edges but also passing continuously across the width of the fabric from edge.

NOTE: Selvedges are often up to 20mm wide and may differ from the body of the fabric in construction or weave or both, or they may be of exactly the same construction as the body of the fabric and be separated from it by yarns of a different colour. Although selvedges may contain fancy effects or may have brand names or fabric descriptions woven into or printed on them, their main purposes is to give strength to the edges of the fabric so that it will behave satisfactorily in weaving and subsequent processes.

a) Leno Edge

A set of threads that interlace with a leno weave (q.v.) either at the edge or in the body of a fabric. In the latter case, it prevents fraying when the fabric is severed in the direction of the warp.

NOTE: When in the body of the fabric, a leno edge is often referred to as a "central selvedge". (See also splits).

Sealed Edge

The cut edge of a fabric that has been treated by heat or chemical means to prevent fraying of the edge.

c) Shuttleless-Loom Edge

1. In some cases, either one or both edges are different from the normal woven selvedge in that the weft is held in position at the turn by threads other than the warp threads, e.g. by the use of an independent thread to lock the weft in position at the edge, or by interlocking of the weft threads. In narrow-fabric weaving this type of edge is often called a "needleloom selvedge".

2. In other cases, the weft is severed just beyond the edge of the fabric and the cut end is tucked into the shed (q.v.) formed on the next pick.

notice that the primary definition is the shuttle loom definition. secondary definitions involve various devices, chemical or mechanical, to finish the fabric edge. i even found a patent online for a device to form a "selvage" on a power loom...

my real point here (anyone still reading?) is that the term "selvage" loses all utility if we use it in the generalized sense. when i say "selvage," the image that pops into your mind is of a fully finished, shuttle-loomed fabric edge, yes? i also think that this image most closely represents the original meaning of the word.

anyway, these are just my thoughts. i have to stop wasting so much time at work...

thanks to tweeds, cheap and swisloc for the discussion -- it's been a lot of fun!

[tweeds]

definitely. this is why i've never understood why a company like FULLCOUNT doesn't get more play as they market themselves on their yarn quality (zimbabwe cotton). I think i've seen maybe two posts of people who've bought their jeans. then you have to also include construction.

i think one reason for that is the lack of awareness. superfuture is really quite faddish and the mad denim rushes came one after the other (ringring mentioned PBJ, everyone wanted a pair of XX-005, someone bought a SD-103, everyone wanted a pair...etc), so until somebody really in the know about Full Count posts something the awareness here will remain small, zimbabwe cotton or not.

if we appreciate the finished quality a full selvage outseam offers, than shouldn't we appreaciate a felled inseam as well? this is another point that ringring always used to harp on. very few companies do it, and as far as i know, none of the prized japanese companies; they all do overlocked inseams.

the irony is, a cheaper denim like APC has fully felled inseams but not the more expensive japanese brands. perhaps there's some sort of tradition behind the overlocked inseam as well?