Dr_Heech

No didn't manage to retrieve. Have rewritten a shorter version which l will constantly edit and update within the next few weeks.

Just spent an hour writing and my phone ran out of power. Gonna take a break. [Edit] lost it all, will start again later 😐

The 1937 501XX models. 1. 1935- early 1937 (?) 501XXC prototype model Pre-pocket flasher model with leather patch probably reading 501XXC (the C standing for covered or concealed?) Copper rivets throughout, with flat bottomed concealed back pocket rivets. From September 1936 onwards the 501 used the smaller 1st issue red tab (10mm as opposed to the normal 12/13mm) placed high on the back pocket. Copper riveted on leather patch. 10oz denim. Mix of orange and yellow stitching. Buckle is either silver colour or two tone copper plated/silver. No images available. 2. 1937 501XX (1937-41 model) First pocket flasher model (dated 1937) informing customers about the new "concealed copper rivets". Larger 12/13mm red tab, cleaner construction throughout. Mostly orange stitching, buckle is usually two tone copper plated/silver. This is the most common model, produced for around 3 or 4 years. 3. 1941 501XX (1941-1942 model) Reverse yoke model where the left and right top panels (yoke) are overlapping the left and right bottom (leg) panels. Still comes with 1937 dated pocket flasher and copper used in all rivets. Mostly orange stitching apart from the chainstitched waistband where black thread is sometimes used. The concealed rivets are rounded copper type, different than its predecessor. Both types of buckle used during this period but on occasion a black painted buckle has been used.This model is less common than the 1937 model. 4. 1942 501XX (April-August 1942) New 1942 dated pocket flasher stating "concealed pocket rivets", New 12oz(?) denim, yoke reversed back to pre-1941 construction, mix of orange and yellow stitching, Black anodized buckle briefly used during this short period although one example found looks to have a silver one. Back pocket concealed rivets are now a rounded shape and use copper coated iron, the others are still pure copper until August 1942 when all WPB's were implemented for the S501XX model. This model is the rarest of the main three types commonly found. The Anomaly: I have seen quite a few pairs of 501XX from the period 1935-1942 which have constantly contradicted the notion that the left over right back leg panels construction change came in around 1941. I have seen pairs with 1941 and 1937 details but the construction is still left over right. Hope all my ramblings make sense?

Best thing to start off with is the patent of the hidden rivet and the man behind it, this eliminates alot of myths. For example (pinched straight from the interweb) - the dates of patent application (7/7/'34) and patent application being granted (30/4/'35) show a time well before the red tab was attached to the (now) plain back pockets. This eliminates the idea of an exposed rivet model with a tab but opens the door to a possible non-tabbed late 1935/earlier 1936 model? ( Don't worry, one hasn't surfaced yet but They are probably listening). Still, plenty of time to see the experimental hidden rivet model in different guises although the only examples l have apart from the 501XXC-branded hidden rivet model could be customer requests (remember the dude ranches started springing up around 1934) but here they are anyway - Firstly, hidden rivet model with machine pressed suspender buttons. These are not the press on types available to customers as a separate attachment. I have seen two examples of this model. This #11 from the 501XX book. Secondly, hidden rivet model with under-tucked/stitched back centre belt loop. This was a feature on the previous, exposed back pocket rivet 501 model around 1934/35 which ties it in as a possible short experimental model. I have only seen two sets of images of this model, both owned by the Berberjin guy. Detail - If anything it shows that there were a constant flow of ideas coming in to make improvements to the 501XX at the time, alot of this was down to one man - Milton Grunbaum, most famous for the invention of the Concealed copper rivet. Milton Grunbaum worked his way up through the ranks at LS &Co to become the factory manager around 1922 and was the creative mind behind alot of proposed and implemented modifications to the structure and strength of the 501XX, for example one of the first improvements was to eliminate the linen thread which was prone to rot, so cotton thread was substituted. His idea of setting up of the modern production line within the factory revolutionised productivity. Improving rivets from the old school tooled head type to the more modern round headed type we're used to now. He was probably responsible for the chainstitched waistband and decisions behind the branding of buttons c.1927. Probably also had a role in the idea behind the pop-on suspender buttons c.1937 and the yoke construction c.1941. All this suggests constant tweaks, constant changes, some subtle, some not so. Obviously the two major changes for most were the Red tab and the hidden rivets. The red tab was soley advertised, briefly, by way of a painted wooden cowboy torso with a pair of 60" inseam 501's nailed to it before the patent 1999927A for Levis hidden rivets was on the top of the first pocket flasher attached to the back pocket of the '1937 model' 501XX. So in conclusion (in my mind at least) there are 4 types of 1937 model and one anomaly. I will make my post about it next.

Well maybe tomorrow I'll do a little update on the 1936-1942 era 501XX which may help me get it all straight in my head too 😅

Love my pair, wish l had bought another

@indigoeagle haha resident scholar indeed. I have to laugh because some of that info is incorrect now. This is because l am always learning, so more of a pupil still imho 😊

Copilot is Skynet

@Jurassic Thanks for that, never seen it. Seems l was wrong, looking at the date of the movie (1943) and the new(ish) condition of the jacket, l'm assuming it is an early 40s 506xx (which would've had the larger, post 1935 buttons) although the small thin pleat stitch boxes and lack of tab indicate pre 1936. Could've had the tab removed? Could be the 1936 model, big button/no tab? Also found one or two images of the jeans he was wearing in the movie - typical 1937-42 era 501XX. Now l have the name l will have to look out for it 🙂

Should've put this in the 'Denim in film' thread but l don't know which film it's from unfortunately. I've seen plenty (if not all) of JW's black and white westerns from the 1930s and 40s but have never seen him in this shot and more importantly for me, never seen him wear a 506xx. The image was borrowed from Vintagebrotherhood on lg, simply titled 'mid 1930s'. The details in the pic plus the date adds weight to this jacket being the small button version (1927-35).

Is that on terrestrial telly Neal? I don't do subscription based stuff so here's hoping.. 🙂

Never tried it successfully with my phone. Did some of the Japanese language 'Researchers guide 501XX ' book but it was very laborious with my tablet thing. You'll have to talk me through it sometime 😁

Thanks Tilmann but unfortunately it's all in Japanese so will leave it. Let me know what it's like The Wrangler book is around 60 quid available via Instagram but I have enough information on that brand.

Cheers Neal. Yes there's a lovely vintage two-tone-esque sheen to it that only exposure to the sun can produce. Lining is quite bobbley but to be expected for a jacket that's 46+ years old. I wonder how long I'll wear this one before eventually selling it on? Edit - my son now wears it

Picked up this vintage USAF CWU 45P jacket last week for a song and from within the UK so no bullshit taxes or import duties, yay! Always curious of this type of jacket seen as it has been largely unchanged since it's inception in 1976. Think the CWU 45P took over from the MA1 as the standard cold weather cockpit jacket. This example is a 1978 contract that has the extra vents in the shoulders. Massive Scoville zipper down the front, probably the largest zipper l've ever seen on a jacket like this! Also Gripper/Scoville zipper on the arm pocket. It has seen service although no verified history - came with velcro patches and name tag removed before purchase., Got a few nicks here and there but knitted cuffs and waistband are solid. CW is an abbreviation of cold weather (jacket) but in my opinion, although it's similar to the MA-1 and the B-15 style insomuch as it's a waist high jacket with pockets that are almost under your arms, it's not as warm as its predecessors but still fine for a short walk down the café for a full english breakfast this time of year. Some pics ... FFS - Really had enough of sufu changing the orientation of my photos. Even when l try and pre-emptively rotate it makes no difference!

People here want entertainment as much as more denim, and you started this conga so feel free to update and tweak and so on. It's all good fun 😁

@Double 0 Soul l've not done any of those things and rarely use detergent when washing/soaking rinsing of jeans anyway. I have pair of raw 201's which fit fine raw but would instantly become Gloria vanderbilts if they ever touched warm water. This was what my post was alluding to

My turn, although bit boring and predictable as usual: Size down craze - No but have participated in vanity sizing once or twice. Slept in jeans - Yes in my youth, at festivals, camping etc Diors- No but remember the 19cm thread Fancy wallet - No Fancy engineer boots - No but wish l had Ocean wash - No Resolute thingy - No Never washing - No but will give it a go at some point Coffee wash - No Slubby or streaky - No Heavy ounce denimz - No Joined a contest - Yes RoyxCone Joined a tour - Twice APC - No Fancy washing detergent - No Worn denim while raw - see ^Never washing Paid for an expensive repair - Never ever paid for any repair thanks to the skills of Mrs_Heech Wallet jewelry - No Numerous pairs of very expensive boots - No Numerous pairs of identical jeans- Yes in the distant past but not recently Numerous fancy leather belts - No Native (American) Japanese jewelry - Lol Jacket suitable for the artic - Yes, once owned a C.H Masland N-3a Unreadable Japanese language magazines - Hell yeah Dressed like a sailor - No Dressed like a miner - No Dressed like a lumberjack - ..ish Mil repro - Yes Dressed like a railroad worker - No Dressed like an ice cream vendor - No Dressed like a P.o.W - No Stacked - No Starch - (and iron) but only the selvedge/train tracks when jeans are raw Freezer - No Fancy socks - No Handmade English shoes - No Whites Semi dress - No Discharge print - No Own less than 10% of the clothing you bought before joining - No, still own at least 10-20% Photo of jeans in bathtub - No Wore jeans wet - Yes £2000 leather jacket - No but did own a £650 Goodwear M422a Numerous repro denim jackets all from the same era - Hell yes Bought jeans nobody else owns - Yes Barf/Man stain/shit oneself in jeans - Can't remember Denim meet up - Never been to a meet up as such but have met several members here over the years for a pint or two (Paul T, Maynard and Flash) and one member when l was horrendously hungover (sorry Smoothsailor) ☺️ [Edit] just wanted to add that l have also more recently met Mr Black when he was working at Soas.

@Double 0 Soul you'll have to add 'Dressed as an ice cream vendor' to the list 😁 although that seems to be a more 2020's sufu thing. I think there was a PoW trend too, whether it was items with Prisoner of War abbreviations or those black and white/brown and white striped 20's/30's prisoner outfits. Also remember a trend where everything had an anchor on it, from watch caps to jackets, although could've dreamt that last one (?)

It's hammer time (can't touch this.)

@MJF9 The top pair of og 1942 501XX are the ones owned by the man from Foremost l think. The ones in the book are Larry's (Hellers Cafe) but there is a third pair, or was l believe. Look into recent pages in the vintage thread to see that unwashed pair of 36x36 so called 42's but with a silver buckle. They were obviously sold to someone a while ago and it is possible that they are no longer raw and are now in use but it was Foremost l think who sold that pair. As l've already mentioned the silver buckle is the only fly in the ointment as every other detail seems to match the 42's criteria. Whilst you are waiting for your desired hem thread, are you having any popular pocket design(s) added? I have chosen Larry's design but can't verify here. Send you a pm in the week when lm back home.

Thanks Neal and just plain ol' Doc will do, l'm fussy about my cheese related pronouns atm, sorta grates on me 🙂

So there's a Wrangler archive book which content-wise is a mystery so far - And now this War denim book - Probably all or most in Japanese but any intel on either is always welcome.

^Possibly? On your second point, l've seen quite a few black and white westerns, usually 40s or 50s, where the main and/or secondary characters are wearing what looks to be either a light tan/mustard or brown generic type one or type two, sometimes with metal buttons but mostly with sewn on types. Your comment above reminded me particularly of Jimmy Stewart in Winchester '73.

Hollywood cowboy 1950's. Quite obviously a Lee Riders 101J but for some reason the Lee Riders buttons have been replaced by what looks like sewn on black buttons. Even the cuffs have two on each! But then the Lee black tag on the pocket has been removed, maybe something to do with advertising?