Paul T

Sorry Cultpop, but the history of selvage model 501s, original and repro, is very well-documented. Levi's have good archives which contain nothing resembling this. Completely untypcial features like selvage on the coin pocket to me are indisputable evidence that this is fake. One could look at further details (the inside of the rivets for example) which are particularly hard to fake, but that's un-necessary here. The two-horsse badge and extra selvage detailing are dead giveaways.

Pretty good finishing too, better than some 'real' 501s I've seen...

Mmm. Well, I'm probably a true 31 31. The 47s, in a 34 34 are more like a 33 waist, and after one soak have shrunk to about 32 33.

The 1933s I had in 34 34 were more like 35 34, and shrank t 33 or maybe more. If you're a true 32 I would go for the 34W in the 47s and - if you can get them - I suspect you might be better off with a 33W in the 44. With both, if you're happy with a 1 inch cuff, I think you'l get away with a 34L. But, unfortunately, they do differ from season to season, so I would ask your dealer to give you an exact measurement.

yes, the 44s are definitely a less slim fit.

What complicates all of this is that LVC varies sizing in different models - the waist of a 47 WILL be sized smaller than that of a 44.

Edited by Paul T on Jan 24, 2006 at 10:35 AM

Used to be all I'd wear. Until the repros got cheaper. Lost my 50s Big Es, now down to one pair of 70s redlines that I aim to sell off soon. But 557 and 101 jackets still turn up at bargain prices.

Haha, don't think I'd get away with a wall display. Not without being sectioned.

I was talking to a friend once about another mate who collected old radios. I suggested he was maybe a bit over the top. Then my girlfriend interrupted and made me run through every pair of jeans I had. And then the denim jackets. By the end it was inescapably obvious I had some terminal obsessive compulsive denim disorder.

But now I've taken the pledge.

I can't remember the exact sequence, but according to one Levi's historian who helped research LVC, yellow stitching differed between factories and was never consistent; it was used more extensively in the 50s, and by the 60s was only used on 'parts sections' - pocket closures and belt loops.

What gets me about Levi's indigo is that on the really good washes, the contrast is fantastic. I too have never managed as high-contrast a look as on, eg, my Lees, but for my current 47s I am going hardcore, dry cleaning only for a full year, just to see what happens. That said, my 1901 deadstock, whose denim I believe comes from Japan, are looking terrific and really keeping their indigo.

I wonder if Cone cheapened their dyeing process over the years? Or else that vintage jeans look better because they were washed in cold water without modern detergent...

Edited by Paul T on Jan 21, 2006 at 06:28 AM

In case anyone checks this thread out, a few weeks ago I asked an acquaintance what looms Kurabo use for their selvage. They are mostly Toyoda.

Evis's first selvage fabric came from Kurabo. That fabric was almost certainly made on toyoda looms. The story about Cone selling their looms to Evis is, as far as all the available evidence shows, complete bollox.

FWIW, the most impressive washes I've ever seen were probably Replay jeans from about seven years ago. It was a time when the general standard of washes was lousy- I walked into their shop in Rome, they had a range of essentially 501 ripoffs, and for a few seconds I thought I was looking at a wall full of vintage jeans. Their more recent washes are pretty good, although I don't like their styling, but back then they seemed way ahead of everybody.

AFAIK, it was Replay and Diesel who've always had some of the most advanced finishes, thanks to Adriano Goldschmied, who developed a lot of finishes with Martelli. Since then I've seen a lot of good washes, the ones that Bart Sights came up with for the LE LVC of a few years ago were great, but those Replay ones were the first that really looked like old jeans.

There used to be so many, but now I think you might be down to American Classics on Endell St - there are a couple others opposite, Interstate and a s/h place. If you ask at American Classics they might know of other dealers. Also Beyond Retro just off Brick Lane - a good selection of leather, but not too many flying jackets when I popped in a couple of weeks ago - go down there on a Sunday and you'll find a few other places on Brick Lane itself. Check out aeroleatherclothing too, might tell you more about manufacturers:

http://www.aeroleatherclothing.com/webapp/aeroleather/servlet/AeroViewPage?category=AERO%20JACKETS&page=displaysubcats&catid=36

They look authentic, but the finishing is lousy. I recall there's a 66 - and i think including a deadstock - in the spring LVC range, which should cost less and for my money looks better, if you can bear to wait.

You can do what many finishing companies or laundreis do, and sandpaper them (or use a stiff nylon brush). The best way of doing it is to squat down, which will simulate the correct kind of creases, and lightly sand all areas where the fabric is ruffled, knees, back pockets, etc use very fine sandpaper to avoid breaking any fibres and remember to do too little rather then too much. Just washing the jeans will make them look paler, but no necessarily better

That said, if they're good jeans, I wouldn't do it. It never looks as good as genuine wear. These days, when everything on the highstreet is prewashed, dark jeans are more exclusive. Learn to love your jeans in their dark state, and the wear, when it arrives, will look 10 times better.

The second photo looks very different, but I would be pretty certain just from your first pix that these jeans are what we said before, 80s Shrink To Fits - definitely not LVC, not selvage, but jeans that were almost certainly made in the US and should age pretty nicely. And if you paid $30 or so you got a decent deal, so I would quit worrying and start wearing the things!

Edited by Paul T on Jan 16, 2006 at 03:34 AM

The first one has dark,selvage, ring ring denim - it's a premium line, made in smaller numbers, with fabric which isn't much different from the denim that Levi's were using 50 years ago, which has defined how jeans should look. The second is a cheaper pre-washed denim. For some peope the first one simply looks better - it will last slightly longtr too. Personally I hate the pale, insipd, pre-washed look of those second jeans, and prefer jeans that age better, with more high contrast wear.

But if you like the look of the second pair just as much, there's no reason why you shouldn't save yourself $120.

Sorry Petng, four gone, I'm keeping the rest.

It will be interesting to see if my current Levi's wear in as well as this. The best jeans I ever had were a pair of early 60s Big E 501s that were really dark, with a great contrast like this, but the LVC Repros I've had since that were never as good, maybe because I washed them too often. For my current 1947s I will try dry-cleaning only for a year; my 1890s are starting to look terrific, but the wear will never look as good as these Lees, because they're a much looser fit.

Once the jeans wear in I wash them as frequently as you'd expect - but for the first year or two I try not to wash them more than once every few months - I use handwash soap to get rid of odd marks and grunge.

I agree the current Euro 101s do look good too - nicer denim than the standard 501s, although I haven't seen any dry, classic ones in some time.

The tag is quite common, but I don't know how it dates it - there was an earlier, prewar tag. FWIW the people at Levi's archive, who obviously know more about the company history than anyone else, don't have such a comprehensive history of the Western shirts.... maybe there is some info somehwere, but I haven't seen it. The guess of 50s or 60s seems the best one, as that pocket style seems to have debuted with Wrangler's 27MW in 1953 or so - that said, I don't know Rockmount's history, would be interested to see their book.

Sanforization is a process that can be applied to most cotton fabrics AFAIK.

three pairs of jeans are making their way across the atlantic, nairb and handlethevibe. I'm glad to have the space for my new projects - got to work up a couple of those Lees, Levi's 47, and I've got a lovely pair of 1901 Levi's that are wearing in slowly but beautifully.

Over the last month or so I've sold loads of stuff I had knocking around, now I've raised $1000 for a good old watch to replace a dead Heuer. I'll be asking for good places to buy on another thread soon...

Black Arm, thanks for posting the pix! A kind of memorial to my wardrobe as it was...

Haha thanks for the compliments. I had a few more worn ones but sold them a few years ago. I guess those 8 jeans are maybe 6 or 8 years' worth of wear. Nothing too excessive. Apart from the normal hourly jujitsu elephant-wrestling squat-thrusting crease-pinching routine of course.

I saw some on sale at Urbam Outfitters in London recently, too, didn't make a note of model & size tho...

Got it.

If all else fails, maybe I could make a career wearing in people's jeans for 'em. Whatchareckon?

A couple of people have mentioned the various Lee reissues, and I've just pulled all of mine out of the cupboard. I have 10 pairs (!) and have just photographed 8 of them, because I plan to sell of a couple off to people here.

I think these are some of the best value selvage jeans ever made, in that they wear in so well - they were better made than Levi's first reissues, the Capital E, and were around 2/3rds the price. They were done in two versions - the earliest examples from circa 1990/1991 were made in Eire, sanforized (tho it doesn't make much difference to the shrinkage) with pocket linings, the later ones were made in Malta, still selvage, not sanforized, no pocket linings. They were discontinued maybe three years ago, to be replaced by a half selvage model, made in Poland, with open selvage (what some people call fake) made on projectile looms, still with nice denim.

If you're nutty enough to want to know what these jeans look like in every shade from brand new to worn out, email denim at trynka dot com and I'll send you a bunch of pix. (Warn me if you don't have broadband) If anyone has a photobucket a/c and wants to post em that would be cool.

Search here for aeroclothing, I think they're called, they're good.

As others have said, this is mostly about contrast. Wear them for a year, say, without washing, you'll see some wear in maybe a light blue, then on that first wash all the wear will zing out in white, while most of the remaining denim will still be pretty dark.

Personally, I found this worked when I really got into the look of dark dry denim, as opposed to all the prewashed light stuff that was out there. I would dry clean my jeans withouth being particualrly bothered if they ever faded. But after some time they would lose indigo even in dry cleaning, so I reverted to washing them, and they instantly looked like cool old jeans. There's a picture of an example around here somewhere.

There are some advantyages to washing shrink-to-fit jeans once before you wear them, because all the fade will stay in the same place. But I've often not done this, because I liked the sheen of newish Lee jeans, and that works fine too.

Oh, and regarding your last point, if you wore prewashed jeans for a year, assuming they started off dark, that would make little difference from wearing dry jeans for a year. It's the conventional washing that lifts the indigo off the jeans.

One fabrics expert once told me the reason denim wears so well is because indigo is a big molecule, and only sits on the surface of the yarns. With use, it literally gets chipped off bit by bit.

Edited by Paul T on Jan 12, 2006 at 06:27 AM

Not sure! I suppose they reached that stage after two years, maybe? Generally I would dryclean for 6-9 months, during which they stay very dark, then they start to look really good after one or two conventional washes at 30 degrees.

I have around four pairs in a similar state, all 31/31, which I am clearing out if anyone's interested, plus around three more in a newer state.

I tend to dry-clean my jeans for the first six months, and it's doesn't have a terrible effect on the patch. But for odd stains, I use hand washing soap on the affected patch, and rinse the affected patch only.

Dry cleaning for the first six months does give a good high contrast. Check out the OLD lees of mine on this auction...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8361636617&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&rd=1