Paul T

THey are pretty good. They should have a blue selvage line and linen patch - but then Levi''s produced a 201 replica with a leather patch too. The back pocket stitching is completely wrong. But then Levi's made similar mistakes on some recent 201 replicas. While these fakes have some details better than others (the oilcloth guarantee patch looks good, and the brown sizing sticker looks like the LVC one) the details are further off (Back cinch, pockets, fake pink selvage, two horse patch) than many.

Edited by Paul T on Jan 7, 2006 at 04:19 PM

I have seen the catalogue and some of the examples and think I posted on here before. THis if from memory: the new range includes a distressed 1947, but I presume theyre' keeping the deadstock version too. THere is a nice 54 or 55 deadstock. There is a pretty nice 1933. There is a pretty lousy 1920s-1930s 201, with linen patch but with bizarre-looking pockets that feature the wrong arcuate.

Sorry, I can't remember what the early 501 is, I think it might be a different version of the 1890s jean. There is at least one 60s 501. it's a pretty good range which, if it still includes the 47, is better than the fall one, but doesn't really seem to favour the intriguing more unusual pieces we'd see a couple of years ago. And the flagship pieces don't quite live up to the Indigo Immortal and Nevada early 501s, which featured some of the best wear and disterssing I've ever seen, which I beliueve was done by the Bart Sights laundry. LVC is definitely going through a period of transition (the European fashion director, Gary Harvey, who oversaw several LVC ranges, left last fall) and we shall have to see how it shakes out.

"There is actually a tiny resurgence of oe/oe, esp. with the 80's retro thing happening."...

Hahaha, thanks! Figures, I guess...

Yes, I'd consider ringring classic! But I do wonder if OE/OE will eventaully be consigend to the dustbin of history! A LOT of people still use ring/oe though.

By the way, I'd describe broken twill as a regular zigzag rather than a random one. It's very popular now for women's denim, and has a nice soft feel. Wranger were the first to use it to eliminate leg twist, but it's apparently very popular with cowboys, because the structure of broken twill allows it to absorb starch very well. Cowboys like to starch their jean as it acts as a dirt screen, and helps with those sharp creases down the front!

OE is actually blown together, not spun. And altho it was introduced in the very early 80s, it's not necessarily the 'modern' method, because ring-ring denim is hugely more popular than it used to ne.

They're early 70s.

FWIW, Lee changed to half selvage over a period when the Riders were changing quite drastically in shape, from a pretty straight leg design, to a pronounced drainpipe (it's hard to date the changes year to year, despite what you see in Japanese books, as Lee had several factories, but looking at promo material year by year gives a good idea).

At the time I'm sure they considered the visibility of the selvage, or otherwise, as totally unimportant. In fact I wonder whether the original use of the selvage edge on Levi's etc was simply there to save money - it saved having to hem the fabric, or add a lockstitch.

BTW, it might just be me, but I wouldn't call the newish Euro lee jeans true selvage. They show the edge of the denim, but that edge isn't fully woven, even if they do have a 'selvage stripe'.

Fake without a doubt. The wide leather patch imitates a later 'leatherlook' patch, with a stock control strip, but hardly any detail on the jeans corresponds to the real thing. Personally I'd rather wear a pair of Uniqlo or H&M selvage rather than something so obviously dodgy.

Depends on whether the jeans have been washed. Chainstitched hems, when washed, often get that nice 'crinkly' look. But not too many jeans have conventional stitching on hems, to my knowledge. I wou;dn't chainstitch the hem on a pair of LVC 1901 repros, but given how difficult that is to do, it's not a problem likely to arise!

I need to go into Cinch so I'll ask David or Colin. BTW, when they did repairs at the Levi's flagship in Regent St, they did't have a chainstitch m/c.

They have the 1920s 201 too, I believe, altho they'd messed up the arcuate on the batch I saw.

This is from memory but everything should eb right a couple of years either way and enough to date the LVC repros

First 501 jeans had one back pocket, suspender buttons, crotch rivet, no belt loops, leather patch in the middle, cinch back, exposed rivets. Pre 501 jeans had othe design details (pliers pocket, different pocket design)

Leather patch in middle switches to patch on right, 1880

Switch to two back pockets 1901

Belt loops appear 1922

Red tag appears 1936. Suspender buttons disappear (from reissues, they were supplied as optional extras at the time)

Covered rivets inctroduced 1939

Crotch rivet, cinch back disappear circa 1940 (wartime jeans have painted back pocket arcuate and patterend pocket linings)

Pocjet arcuate reappears 1947, in modified symmetircla shape, at which time jeans gain slimmer cut

Leather patch changes to 'leather look' 1955

Shallower arcuate introduced early 1960s.

Covered rivets replaced by bar tacks 1968-ish

Big E logo switches to little e 1971

I wasn't necessarily clear about the ones I referred to. The Lee Originals are made in Japan by Edwin, Lee's licensees, using sanforized selvage fabric which I believe mostly comes from Nisshinbo. The range includes the 40s cowboy pants with button flies, including the hair on hide model of around 1937 (101B, cinchback, dungaree-style pockets) , and the 101Z Riders, the 1952 jeans with zipper fly.

Lee Europe were among the first manufacturers to reintorudce a classic jean in selvage, with the Lee Rider, made in Eire, with 'sanforized' selvage from Nisshinbo, around 1991, based on the 1950s 101z Riders with a zipper fly. A couple of years later they moved production to Malta, and the fabric was no longer marked sanforized (although shrinkage is not a lot greater than in the previous version). Both these are fantastic jeans, which fade brilliantly, especially if you dry clean them for the first 6 months. (There's a new and old pair of the second Euro version illustrated on my eBay auction, mentioned in the FS section).

The new version is made in Poland using non-selvage fabric - I'd describe it as one-sided, fake selvage. But, as jens said, the fabric still looks great and is ringring.

Edited by Paul T on Dec 14, 2005 at 02:40 AM

501 was Amoskeag fabric, until the 20s. 201 was the same weight as the 501, but unspecified supplier. The 1920s and 1930s 201 had a reallty nice greenish fabric, that being cheaper was slubbier than the stuff Cone was supplying (of course, the 201 could also have used Cone fabric, just a cheaper line, LS&CO records don't say). it was this cheaper slubbier fabric that inspired the Red. For the 201 reissue of 2000 or so, they did a good job of reproducing the look. Amoskeag, by the way, were still producing fabric for Leiv's until 1922 or so - between 1915 and 1922 or so they probably used denim from both, from 1922 Cone was the exclusive supplier.

Anyway, enuff historical blah. The 2000-ish 201 reissue is my favourite LVC. Unfortunately, the first examples of the spring 2006 201 reissue are another fuckup, with a 1960s style arcuate...

One reason to avoid that first '201' reissue - apparently Eric Clapton is a fan and buys them up whenever he sees them...

You're right. But i try to list the tracking cost separately and ask them to email specifically to request shipping without tracking, whihc makes it less likely PayPal will do a chargeback. In the UK, for small items, tracking's only 64 pence extra or so.

Glad you thought that re the Lees - don't know why I did it, but I've had emails asking if I'll sell the old ones, too!

I think you might have seen that mentioned in a book called Denim. The 502 replica was a Japan-only reissue, using denim from Kurabo - at the time, Cone's looms were still down in the basement. Somewhere I have the names of the guys who oversaw the reissue.

The '201 reissue' was apparently fairly close to a 1937 501. The real thing would have had a linen patch, and different (I would say nicer) denim - very slubby... it's what they used as the insipration for the look of the Red range that inspired Type 1.

jiamorlee, I would just paraphrase the descriptionand comments above. Take lot of pix, including the tags inside. Qualify stuff where you're not absolutely certain what they are. I would call them something like "First ever LVC 501 XX vintage repro", then go on to say how you believe these are the Capital E reissue from 1992, made in Levi's famed Valencia Road facotry, using selvage denim from Cone, who supplied the denim for Leiv's from the 1920s, made on their vintage looms blah blah. Describe the features - red line selvage, covered rivets, crotch rivet... and tell people that the jeans predated the creation of the LVC line and that they're very rarely seen.

I think all the above is fair and reasonable. You don't have to say that they didn't get it right first time around! (Actually, they didn't get it right second time around either, if I recall - the 201 had a leather patch on the next reissues).

If they go to the trouble of emailing you first, if you ask for that, then you can be reasonably confident they'll follow thru and pay you. If they don't, you know they're deadbeats and cancel their bids as they come in.

I would add to this, work out the postage, people like to know what it's gonna cost them. You get more money if you take PayPal. And if you sell using PayPal ALWAYS ship using a method with tracking. (If you don't, your buyer can claim the item didn't arrive, and get their money back, no problem).

Personally, I alwyas point out the flaws very carefully and photograph them. If you point out the flaws, people will assume everything else is legit, and often they'll bid more on your stuff than on items that claim to be perfect, but where you feel you can't trust the seller.

Re the Levi's factory tour - it was cool, but they've stopped it now sadly, I think the building's being converted into apartments.

Just checked my notes. The Capital E reissue came out in 1992. It is possible it didn't have the 555 on the buttons, because they used a slightly bizarre selection of hardware. I think this is the supposed 1962 reissue - which did, inaccurately, have a leather patch. Also, on the '1962' Capital E, the thread was way too brown - I've only seen a MIB example, but I would guess the thread looks like 80s jeans. I did actually see these being produced at Valencia, and remember being disappointed they had missed the opportunity to get it right. They all came boxed (prewashed) and were expensive, not as good as the contemporary Lee reissues, and certainly nowhere near Evis quality. I can check with the archivist who has the pair about the button details, but if the internal labels look correct, I would bet that these are the Capital E.

Personally, I wouldn't pay too much for them as they're not great reissues! But if you were to auction them on the 'bay, as the first LVC ever produced, you might get someone ready to pay a premium. Thye're interesting jeans too, in that they demonstrate Cone still had shuttle looms back in 92.

Yes, Levi's US (and Levi's Japan) both did reissues before the Tendberg/Frattini program, which was a joint venture between Japan Europe and the US. Capital E was, from memory, 1993 or 94.

Edited by Paul T on Dec 11, 2005 at 03:58 PM

Only had a reall quick look without blowing up the pix, but they look to me like covered rivets (don't have the distinctive line of stitching you get on bar tacks) (from pre 68 jeans); thjey have a shallow arcuate, which I'd expect on 60s reissues; leather patch from pre 55 jeans; crotch rivet(?) from pre 1940s jeans (haven't blown up the pic to look properly, just using my web browser). So... not totally consistent. I wonder if they might be early LVC; my initial guess would be the early 1990s 'Capital e" reissue, which were based on a generic vintage look rather than one specific year.

Be aware that some of the better fakes have a similar mix of generic features (specially that back pocket arcuate); although the fabric on these looks good. What's on the internal labels? IT would have 555 on the buttons if it was the Capital E reissue.

Edited by Paul T on Dec 11, 2005 at 02:18 PM

If you find H&M interesting - which I do, considering their prices - you should check out what TopShop are up to. Amazing turnover, if ever you want an M65-style jacket, for instance, they'll have various different takes on it, leather jackets that look like 70s vintage... they're terrific value for money with, I reckon, a higher hit rate than H&M.

There is a lot more to be told - like ringring, I find the stories of finishing intriguing, because that's never covered. I believe it was Martelli, then from Bologna, who initiated much of the accurate looking-wear and distressing we see today, for Replay and Diesel. But the whole loom thing is a big question. As I've said repeatedly, while I'm sure there are some antique looms in Japan, I believe most of the importatn Evisu and Edwin jeans were made on Japanese looms, quite probably Toyoda, who became one of the world's leading loom producers by the 1930s. Most early Evis denim was made by Kurabo, and no-one I know who's been there has seen any old American looms. And I know that the claim of using 'old Levi's looms' comes from Yamame at Evis, because he told me directly - and then modified the claim when I questioned him further, to say they were 'traditional-style looms'. Not to denigrate him, though, because he did popularise the whole notion of high quality, ringring selvage denim at a time when it could have died out.

As for Cone retiring their shuttle looms, it can only have been for cost reasons! Not just the more efficient fabric production, but also maintenance, and the number of staff required. I have also seen documents that indicate there were other changes in the denim that Levi's didn't make public.

In case anyone doesn't know, LVC have often used premium Japanese denim for particular reissues. The rather excellent Nevada Mine reissues used natural indigo denim from Kurabo; I wouldn't be surprised if the Indigo Immortal did too; some of their Lady Levi's use Sanforized selvage from Kaihara.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone here knows whether all 501s still use Cone denim. I know LS&Co were considering other suppliers, but don't know if they ever went through with it.

Dry clean only for maybe a year, trying to keep them totally dark, no hurry. Then wash them conventionally and they suddenly zing out like that. Those jeans were the reason I stopped buying vintage Levi's, they were way cheaper and you could choose your size. I still have around 7 or 9 pairs in varying degrees of decrepitude, but I'm already starting to regret selling off that new pair... but I need a decent watch and the Heuers I like are too damn trendy now and cost a bomb.

...forgive me for touting my own stuff here, but my fantastic old Heuer watch has died on me and I'm trying to raise money for a replacement. Both these jeans, with tags, are now impossible to get hold of... and if you don't know these Lee reissues, check out the pic of the used pair to see how they wear in.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Levis-LVC-1933-501XX-vintage-last-San-Fran-jeans_W0QQitemZ8361634177QQcategoryZ91238QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Lee-Rider-101Z-selvage-jeans_W0QQitemZ8361636617QQcategoryZ91238QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

If anyone's interested, I have another pair of the Lee Riders, new, but without tags. PM me if you fancy them...

Edited by Paul T on Dec 7, 2005 at 02:58 PM