Paul T

"I'd be curious to see how those fit on a human..."

LOL, so you've met the nipper?

They don't have the utilitarian cool of Uniqlo, but it's worth checking on H&M and Topshop for selvage. There's a thread about London shops for other denim sutff over at superfuture. And don't worry, lots of Londoners missed out on uniqlo selvage too...

Actually, it was invented by Sanford L Cluett - how's that for an all-american name. He patented the process around 1928, and it was first used for denim sold by J C Penney. Bet mr cluett didn't look as cool as sanford & son tho.

It was produced by Erwin Mills, a huge concern, which closed decades ago - like Valencia st will be, it's all loft aparmtnets now...

Edited by Paul T on Mar 15, 2006 at 09:34 AM

good question! Essentially, Sanforized means denim that's preshrunk in the fabric phase, as opposed to washed as a complete garment. And yes, it's supposed to limit shrinkage to 3%. But all my Sanforized Lee jeans have shrunk, I would say by more than 3%, and I've spoken to vintage dealers who believed the old ones shrunk to some extent too.

Sort of. THose are COne denim and are a weird composite based on the Nevada jeans, but with the later patch, on the right rather than the middle; there's a new version, from falll 05 I think, which is slightly better which I should be getting. I actually had a pair of the natural indigo version made in Valencia, but made the mistake of buying oversized. Looked like Coco the Clown.

Serge, I'm not allowed to pay money for jeans any more, but thanks for the heads up. I was allowed to buy these, but they're slightly too small for me...

Edited by Paul T on Mar 15, 2006 at 09:02 AM

I think they'd just been left in the same place for 120 years, and the indigo just leached out or oxidised where they lay. The mud must've been dry, or they'd have rotted, so probably the indigo leached into the mud decades ago. Natural indigo jeans like this don't normally get much in the way of whiskers etc, they fade in a completely different way.

AS I might've meniotned on here befoer, these jeans came before the 501. Lots of details like the stitching are different, they look much more like workwear, and have that extra pocket on one thigh. I really wish I could blag a pair of the repros that were made in 2001, they were terrific...

Ah, they looked foreshortened so I didn't recognise them. They're the Nevada jeans, the ones that fetched $45k.

I was there when they had them at the LVC archives, as they examined them, it was amazing. They were antiques, 125 years old, yet you could have gone out on the street wearing them & looked pretty cool. Interesting that the denim expert they consulted got it so wrong...

They've ruined them, the idiots!

THose are 1880s jeans, pretty like the $45k ones. Are they from the eBay auction that got pulled?

Nice thai jeans.

What I like is that whoever made these had a sense of humour, or else failed maths. Big E jeans were last made in 1971. The pocket print - and how strange it survived, if these were old jeans - says that Levi's jeans have been made for over 110 years, which would mean these jeans were made in the late 80s! Oh, they must have failed English too, cos they don't know how to spell 'thred'! And I wonder where you can buy protect 125 ounce denim, that's even heavier than Samurai, isn't it?

For other fake spotters, note these have a later two-horse patch (it's wider) which came in in the late 70s or so, and therefore shouldn't be found on Big E jeans. Like a lot of fakes it is single stiched on the hem, where it should have chain stitch. Also, by now, you can maybe recognise the look of that Thai or Indonesian denim, kinda green in colour, and always has the red line, whihc would probably have faded away on the real thing.

Here are the 1901 Levi's. You'll see that the indigo is terrific - really dark, holds its colour. Compared to my other jeans these haven't had a lot of wear, and they've been washed a few times, but the colour's holding up well. I suspect the fabrci for these comes from Kurabo - it's the redline denim that comes from Cone - and has had more dips than most of the other LVC. WHen you compare them they're very different, much blacker.

This close-up gives a better idea of how the denim looks. Nice'n'dark, huh?

And here's the back view. Maybe the nicest arcuate and back pocket design of any LVC:

I fully agree that the back cinch is useless, so these jeans so hang lower - you can pin the cinch together, or even sew it if it really bothers you. But mine are pretty big, and it's not too much of a problem. But I'm serious that these are summer jeans, they're a light denim, and a bit draughty. But they're a pretty flattering cut, I've been told... all told these jeans might not be to everyone's taste, they're not as practical as the 1947 Levi's, and I'm not sure I would wear them throughout the year as my main pair, but they're unusual, and look great.

Very nice Lee jacket. Very probably late 60s - it has a gold border around the tag, yes, with no red? They aren't the very oldest, but they more or less correspond the the Big E Levi's. They're sometimes pricey - up to $100 - but because they're not as celebrated as the 557 you can often find them for less. Which makes them a bargain, as they're a nicer jacket, and one in fairly unwashed condition, like yours, is a real find.

The Levi's ones look nice, but they're not particularly old.

The 1901 are nice jeans - although are you sure it's still in the current collection, I thought fall 05 was an 1890 one-pocket pant? The indgio hold up really, really well. The cinch doesn't. I will try & post pix tomorrow. Remember it's a fiarly light denim, 9oz i think, which affects the feel. Good for summer, bad for winter.

Re the Baggy Bjorn's l/h twill, it doesn't noticeably affect the look, it will give it a softer feel.

If the Lee denim is initally slightly lighter, i suspect it will hold its colour better than the Levi's with Cone denim, particularly as you'll ultimately wash your jeans more than your jackets. I do prefer the look of the Lee denim to LVC, they do fade more nicely and mroe like a genuine vintage item, if you look at my jeans posted on here. Levi's pants and Lee jacket is a classic conbination.

The 46 has waist tags, I think the 44 does too, no cinch.

Edited by Paul T on Mar 14, 2006 at 07:39 AM

They all look legit.

It's hard to generalise about how to spot fakes. But do some searching here, and you'll find that there are a few constants. Many of them have selvage showing on the coin pocket, which real Levi's have never had. Many fakes have leather patches that look wrong. Usually it's the combination of details that are wrong; you might see a leather patch, which earlier jeans had, combined with pocket stitching from a later jean.

Generally, it's easier to spot genuine LVC, such as the ones here, because they have all the tags, barcodes. But some fakes are now including at least some of these.

Those APC look very similar to H&M's dark, natural pair. The Henne's denim is lighter in weight, but about a quarter of the cost.

Here's a pic of H&M selvage. Around $20. Has to be best value pair of jeans in the world.

And here, just because I can, is a pair of the Levi's 1880 repros. These are light denim and I estimate will last for about 10 days hard wear, then I guess you hang them on the wall...

Sorry, re denim jackets I'm a purist & refuse to look at any with 4 pockets!

Re bleeding, a good question. I don't actually know if Sanforized jackets bleed less than conventional dry. My sanforized 101Z jeans don't bleed much.

I am doubtful. Those jeans have the stock control tag - the retailer could tear off a strip and keep a record of what sizes they'd sold. In my recollection that appears in the late 70s and postdates the big E era. I have seen quite a few of the Japanese repros, which appeared from 87 I think, and they looked different - in fact, msot of them featured excellent Kurabo denim.

Levi's do a great range - including a replica of the Nevada jeans - but they only go up to Age 6. Without a doubt, the best for kids is H&M. Their ranges change often, but I've bought amazing selvage jeans, with dark indigo denim & some tasteful minimal whiskers, for my 5-yr old for around $15. They also do some cool unwashed jeans, quite plain vintage style with no distressing, these don't wear as well, but these are only around $12.

I suggest you try Wrangler too, I'm pretty sure they do dry jeans. Do a search, someone here mentioned there's some farmers or tractor-driver website that carries em!

Sorry, it was the emphasis on soaking that fooled me - if you're washing them then soaking won't do a whole lot - washing relies on stirring, or agitation, or rubbing, so a simply soak won't lift out a lot of dirt. I suggest you use a specialised hand-washing soap to scrub the grubby areas, like the bottom of the hems, inside, particalarly the pockets etc, then a mild non-bio powder and follow the instructions for handwashing.

RE dry cleaning, no it's won't affect the denim's ability to shrink and yes, you will have to make sure they don't press them.

Can't remember the jacket in the flesh, but the pants are a dark denim with a greenish tint that if anything is darker than LVC. THe Euro-reissue jacket was an excellent finish, and I'm certain the Edwin-made 101J will be the same - I think it's the same denim - and will match well with LVC.

The 101J is the classic denim jacket - Levi's 557 trucker jacket was heavily influenced by it. It's an excellent piece. But all the Edwin-made Lee reissues are excellent.

Check w Aero re Sanforizing, as there is some inconsistency from model to model. I would try and get a guarantee of whether they're Sanforized directly from them in an email, just in case there's any problem later.

I do know that some of the Euro models were supposed to be Sanrofrized but still shrank, but I THINK that in this case they were made oversized to compensate- so in most cases if you go for the tag size they are more reliable than LVC. But as I say, check w Aeroleather.

Let us know how you get on & post some pix!

Edited by Paul T on Mar 13, 2006 at 10:30 AM

They were my main jeans for a long time, plus vintage Levi's. They were a good vintage cut, good quliaty denim, cheaper than LVC and better than the first Levi's reissues. I wear a lot more LVC now, but still have three or four lees that are pretty worn, not quite as much as the ones shown here...

Blindlemon got it right, that's probably all the important stores. the one opposite american classics is called interstate. For vintage, Beyond Retro is excellent, just off Brick Lane on, i think, cheshire st. If you're ever in greenwich, try Emporium on Creek Road for the lee and bluebell reissues.

The wash and destruction processes will normally be developed by laundries, who will develop the technology to make those effects. The big denim producers will have probably co-developed some of these - for instance, Martelli, who made most of the breakthrough finishes for Diesel and Replay, developed a lot of them in ocnjunction with Adriano Goldschmied of the Genius group.

What your avergae denim company will do - and someone who actually designs jeans for a living will correct me if I'm wrong - is specify the denim from a huge number of possibilities, design the cut, in every detail, and then specify the finish from a huge number of possibilities. THe higher the cost of the jeans, the higher the probability that the denim, and the finish, will be customised, or even originated, for those partiuclar jeans.

I did research the story of the LEvi Nevada Jeans relicas (the $45,000) ones. The denim was developed specifically for those jeans by Kurabo - vegetable dye denim, ecru (non bleached) cotton, the partiuclar look and irregularity of the weave. But all of these were variants of what Kurabo already produced. The finish had to match the specific original jeans, and I am presuming that LEvi's asked a couple of laundries to replicate that look and went for the one that did the best job at the best price, which in this case happened to be the Sights laundry.

It didn't take THAT long! I would say that most of the wear comes in the first six months. THen I try not to wash too often, but i don't worry about it. Simple as that.

Most of those jeans will only have been dtry cleaned once, i only worry about keeping washing to a minimum for the first 6 months or so. I always wash at 30 degrees to minimize further shrinkage, and use hand wash soap to scrub the hems etc.

Each of those jeans maybe had 12-18 months wear. These lees do wear very nicely, I suspect it's a combination of well-applied indigo, that doesn't wash out too easily, and the fact that as the jeans didn't get an initial soak they were stiffer, which gives you better-defined wear.

You don't need any soap on your first soak. All you're trying to do is shrink the jeans to their 'final' size (and some people don't even do this). Simply leave them in a cold bath for 1-8 hours - a longer soak will shrink them slightly more. You might want to wear them for 15 minutes before you hang them up to dry as this will help the creases form in natural places. best place for them to dry is on a line outside.

Thereafter, if you want a high contrast fade, try and keep washing to when it's absolutely unavoidable, or dry clean the first couple of times.