cool_hand

Managed to get down to Cinch earlier this week. 1976 appear to be TTS: size 34 measured 17.5" and if I remember correctly the size 36 measured 18.5", so I would recommend sizing up. compared the denim directly to the Mirror jeans and there's really little in it, the shade is very close. Unless you want to buy into the collectability of the Mirrors I would save yourself some money and go with the straight 76. Only query is I thought the 76 was retailing at £160 but the price in Cinch was £180?

where can I find a pair of 1922s?

36 minutes ago, Niro said:

If you are buying from overseas (buying from outside Japan) you are paying a higher price that is comparable to retailers outside Japan. For example on Okayama Denim, a pair of xx-017 jeans is $310 (converts to roughly £250). Rivet & Hide, which is based in UK sells them for £235, while Blue in Green, which is based in New York also sells them at $310.

1

And prior to March 7th Okayama Denim sold xx-017 for $225 which was the focus of the original discussion, but I take your point. It's interesting to note that the price rise has matched Blue in Green's $ pricing and from this you might conclude these increases were driven by Blue in Green as Danny has stated he has never made protest over Okayama Denim's pricing. It would be interesting to see how regional sales develop going forward; I think it's safe to say Okayama Denim will inevitably lose sales, but will the small number of retailers who carry PBJ outside of Japan gain that many new customers? Opinion appears fairly divided here over these price increases, off-board everyone I've spoken to have indicated they are no longer going to buy into the brand. I agree with Danny that PBJ won't be disappearing from the denim market but this direction may turn out to be a case of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

12 minutes ago, Niro said:

I personally do not see a problem with what PBJ are trying to do. They are trying to be fair and show their retailers that they care about them. OD undervalue shipments so that they bypass custom charges, they will still do the same even with the price increase. It's not as if you will now have to pay an international price plus customs charges on top of that.

If you buy in Japan, you pay the Japanese price point (minus 8% for the VAT), if you buy from overseas you pay at a price point similar to the overseas retailers.

 

 

What you are stating about avoiding customs charges through a lower customs declaration and also saving the 8% Japanese tax is simply not true. You can have one or the other but you can't have both. A low customs declaration is not a guarantee of avoidance of duties.

"if you buy from overseas you pay at a price point similar to the overseas retailers." - can you elaborate this point because this is somewhat confusing?

16 hours ago, Danny @ Rivet & Hide said:

Ok. Got you on the whacking up bit. But you do admit that in VAT/duties alone there is an added 30% cost but say you'd be happy to buy from a UK store if the price difference were 10-15%.

 

 

I was referring to the added cost of approximately 30% on top of the Japanese retail price as a private consumer importing from Japan. "Admit" sounds like I'm in a court of law. I still don't see a contradiction in my post.

Let's break down the numbers: Import duty: 12%. VAT 20%. Royal Mail Handling fee: £8. Postage: OD offer free postage but cost is actually hidden in slightly higher retail price. However, OD take-off the 8% Japanese tax for export. So I admit the cost isn't quite 30%.

What really grates me is if I now wish to buy something from PBJ that isn't stocked by your store or Cultizm or whoever I will now have to pay a heavily inflated price over the local Japanese consumer retail price + I'll still have the VAT/duties on top. It'll make the purchase completely prohibitive.  

Danny, I appreciate the points that you make. Just so it's clear when I said "whacking prices up 35% to 40% was the solution" I wasn't referring to Rivet and Hide "whacking up prices" I was referring to OD being forced by PBJ to increase their prices by 35% to 40%. But I can see the way it was written wasn't clear and it could of easily be interpreted differently to what I was trying to express.

Please also note all of the PBJ items that I've purchased from OD are not carried by your store; which is another issue I wanted to bring up.

I don't see any contradiction in my post though.

1 hour ago, Foxy2 said:

The difference in VAT alone is a good 10% for Europe.

 

Sorry Foxy but you are misguided regarding the VAT rate in Europe.

https://www.ricksteves.com/travel-tips/money/vat-rates-in-europe

The average VAT rates are 20%+.

3 hours ago, Cold Summer said:

I doubt that any loss of sales associated with the OD price increases would really hurt PBJ. They already can't make enough to meet demand, so you'd think they'd be relieved to have less to deal with.

 

 

Loss of sales will hurt Okayama Denim though.

Evidence please?

It's artificial price fixing whatever way you look at it. If stores outside of Japan don't like it then drop the brand. Okayama's business will suffer a drop in sales, there's no doubt. Is that fair on Merv?

So what happens with UK brands that sell locally in Japan if when inevitably they retail at a higher price in Japan? Are the Japanese stores complaining to the UK brand and asking them to raise the prices in the UK to compensate? I doubt it. It's hypocrisy.

PBJ can do whatever they want but they don't take into consideration the following:

Post-Brexit the UK pounds sterling (£) devalued by around 15 to 20% against the US dollar ($) and other currencies which add significantly to the cost of importing from the US or Japan.

We pay import duties on anything purchased from outside of the Eurozone - VAT/duties and handling charges add around 30% to the cost + we also have to pay for shipping. Yes, there are ways of avoiding some of these costs but they are not guaranteed. We also don't have the rights to return the item for the refund if purchasing outside of the EU or the opportunity to go and try the item on in a bricks and mortar store, we take A LOT of risk when buying from overseas - quite often losing money when that garment doesn't work out.

The stores that have been complaining to PBJ about being undercut- what evidence do they have? Why don't they trim their profit margins slightly and be competitive? This looks like price fixing and not capitalism. If the difference in price between buying in the UK or buying from the overseas was marginal (10 to 15%) I'd be very happy to buy from a UK store. But instead they think whacking prices up 35 to 40% is the solution. It's just plain dumb business practice. There's plenty of choice out there and I'll be voting with my wallet. I do feel bad for Melv, he's a good guy.

Well PBJ just shot themselves in the foot IMO.

Roy RS00 $285 - PBJ XX03 new price: $283 (although most of the other PBJ jean styles will now be $310+).

I know which one I'm buying next.

Do love the colour of the Type II Double Natural Indigo Jacket but $1073 is la la land.

From 7th March Okayama Denim is increasing the price of PBJ (on average) by 35%!!

Insane.

If there's something you're considering I would grab it now.

Unionmade also measures the 1976 RHT 34 as 36 so it does appear the pattern for the Mirror Jean is different from the standard 76. 5% shrinkage is approximately 1.5" in the waist and leg but usually, the leg shrinks more than the waist. What does LVC usually put on their labels? My 1915 have no mention of shrinkage!

13 hours ago, Sympathy-For-The-Denim said:

many thanks Paul T thanks for clearifying that Lee  topic.

speaking of sanforized denim, it´s interesting that the denim of cool hands mirror jeans are just to shrink about 5%, rather than 10% for most rigid LVCs

 

how do you know the LHT denim of the mirror jeans shrinks only 5%?

It's a shame they didn't come with a swing tag or some kind of certificate with the number 298/501. Maybe the ones sold in store do? As mentioned in my initial post I struggled to get on with the left-hand fly button so I will probably get the standard RHT version of the jeans - and size up to a 36 if the RHT fit TTS.

proppellerbeanie: I don't know if the LHT is the same size as the RHT or if the shrinkage is the same, there is little information out there? I would expect shrinkage.

Paul T: if you go to Cinch any chance you could measure the waist of a standard 1976 in size 34? Thank you.

I've sent the jeans back this morning but I took some photos first. IMO the denim looks lighter than the original deadstock.

Mirror Jeans just arrived. Yep, they're going to be to small if you go for your usual waist size. I ordered a 34/34.

Waist 34 1/4"
FR 12 3/4"
RR 15"
Thigh 12.5"
Knee 9 3/4"
Inside leg: 34.5" / 34 1/4"
Opening 8.5"

There were no measurements for these online so I took a chance they would be sized for shrinkage. The last pair of LVC I purchased were the 1915 (34/34) which came up a 36 waist. Based on propellerbeanie's post-soak measurements these will lose 2" in the waist. How different is the RHT to the LHT?

I thought the denim would be a little more interesting – it looks just like the picture on Caliroots, quite light - would expect it to darken once soaked. My pair are missing the swing tag and the card size label that sits next to the leather back patch, maybe they didn't make these labels/tags for the Mirror version? Made in the USA. The mirrored fly doesn't work for me - maybe if you're left handed it will work? It just might be the Achilles heel in the design. Anway to small so will need to go back and I think I will look to size-up in a standard RHT pair.

On 23/01/2017 at 1:50 PM, cool_hand said:

I finally cold soaked my PBJ XX-003-VTG (REGULAR STRAIGHT). I sized up to a 36 in these as that appeared to be the consensus and advise to go.

Here are pre and post soak measurements:

Waist: 18 1/4"  –  17.5"
FR: 12.5"  -  12"
RR: 15 5/8" - 15 1/4"
Inside Leg: 37" - 36"
Opening: 9.5" - 9"

Was surprised there wasn't more shrinkage in the leg, just an inch, but were cold soaked. I'm going to wear them for a bit as they are and then machine wash 30 or give them a hot soak as I'd like to get some more shrinkage out of them, especially around the leg width and thigh. Not a lot of taper on these!
 

 

Hot soaked / machine rinsed cold / line dried these yesterday.

Waist: 17"
FR: 11 3/4"
RR: 14 3/4"
Inside Leg: 35"
Opening: 9"

Sizing up appears to be wise, but maybe the waist will stretch a lot? I would expect a little more shrinkage in the leg, maybe 1/2". Will comment on the fit later.

That's great Paul. I guess you are never going to wear them?

- thanks, Maynard.

I've just mail-ordered a pair as I'm not sure if I can get up to London next week. Levis offer free delivery/free returns. Would have liked to of compared the LHT to the RHT version which are retailing @ £160. My only reservation on the Mirror version is how I will get on with the button-fly - might find that a little odd if it's the other way around?

I wonder if any other stores outside of Cinch are stocking these?

Paul: are your mirror jeans one of the 12 pairs made from the original deadstock or the repro LHT?

On 25/02/2017 at 4:11 AM, Broark said:

The Veste Belleville is the closest I think to ever landing a Veste Ouvrier, looks really nice.

 

Nice jacket but I'm not sure about those buttons? Are they really in keeping with the style?

the

1 hour ago, Cucoo said:

Here's the direct link at Caliroots:

https://caliroots.com/levis-vintage-clothing-1976-501-mirror-32998-0000/p/65360

 

The UK sterling price on Caliroots is £350. I'm expecting them to be closer to £300 in the UK. Anyone know what the US price will be?

On 04/01/2017 at 8:51 AM, Paul T said:

Cone had a very old loom in reception on display called the Model X. They are always looking for more vintage looms, as the bulk of the original ones were scrapped, so they decided to look at this one and see if they could get it working. They happened to mention to Levi's that there was still denim actually on the loom; they were instantly, "deadstock Cone denim? Let's use it in some new jeans?"

THen when Cone had a better look they realised it was left hand twill - which is synonymous with Lee. Levi's have never made a 501 with left hand twill. Levi's decided that the only way to make it feel right is to do a 1978 jean that is a mirror image of the 501.

By the way, deep pocket fans; best jeans for this are definitely Roy. He has lovely deep pockets, often with cotton duck linings, which I've always really liked. mpukas, roy does make great jeans.

 

 

Thanks for the info. I enquired again about the jeans and the store and they said the same story - deadstock found on an old loom. What isn't clear is if any of the jeans will be made from the dead-stock or are they all being made from new reproduction LHT dead-stock, or a mixture of both? The edition is apparently 500 pairs, price TBC - but they thought they would be around £300! BTW: I thought the jean is a 1976 model not 1978?

On 24/01/2017 at 6:05 AM, somatoform said:

cool_hand,

 

how did those start with a 12.5" fr? Denimio and BiG have the 36 one wash going down to 10.75" fr and Rivet and Hide and Okayama have the raw 36 starting with 11.5" fr.

 

I'm thinking about getting a 36 as well, but the difference between 12.5" and 11.5" fr raw is very substantial.

 

12.5 FR is the measurements of the jeans I received. Don't know why Okayama have them at 11.5? I didn't measure the thigh. Hot wash later.

I finally cold soaked my PBJ XX-003-VTG (REGULAR STRAIGHT). I sized up to a 36 in these as that appeared to be the consensus and advise to go.

Here are pre and post soak measurements:

Waist: 18 1/4"  –  17.5"
FR: 12.5"  -  12"
RR: 15 5/8" - 15 1/4"
Inside Leg: 37" - 36"
Opening: 9.5" - 9"

Was surprised there wasn't more shrinkage in the leg, just an inch, but were cold soaked. I'm going to wear them for a bit as they are and then machine wash 30 or give them a hot soak as I'd like to get some more shrinkage out of them, especially around the leg width and thigh. Not a lot of taper on these!