horriblyjollyjinx

I finished 2nd in the contest, again. ho ho

I have been developing finishes on denim for the last 25 years and there is no way you scuffed these in 2 months.

Who do you make finishes for, Diesel and TR?

It's perfectly possible for ADD hippies to get this kind of wear in 2 months. All of it has been documented in the Fullcount contest thread too.

Why are the 555s unquestionably better than the 2005 except for the single stitched arcuate? For example, how do you know that the denim on the 555s is more accurate? And how do you know which color stitching on the backpockets is more correct?

I have the 555 201s from 98 or 99, I forget, and I thought the bright orange on the backpockets made them look like Nudies.

Thanks for the pics Dr Heech. It's funny in the type 2 1953 card they talk about how the neck tag changed to paper from leather in 1955, which is both completely irrelevant to the jacket in question, and shows that they erred in making that reproduction since it seems to have a papertag

But the cards are still lovely and reinforces my love for the type 1. Does anyone know when the type 1/2 changed from the boxy cut to the long, slim cut? I'm all about the boxy cut and want to stay far away from any slim denim jackets!

Just make sure you don't dream too much, and expect Japan to be heaven on earth, or significantly different from America even. At the end of the day you have the same obligations here as in America; you need to make a living, build a career, find friends, a gf and all what comes with it etc etc. No one is going to expect less from you in Japan than in America. Your life here will not be trouble-free and there will not be girls screaming at you when you walk down the street and no company will throw money at you just because you're white.

I haven't read your posts so I don't know what you want to do, and I don't want to put you off from them, just make sure you don't have any unreasonable expectations, because that's what could make your life in Japan a misery.

But other than that, I definitely think you should experience living in another country and on your own. If nothing else it will make you see life in America in another light.

wow this is depressing. is this due to the economy?

no, it's because someone had McDonalds for lunch and then in the middle of the meal decided he'd rather have takoyaki.. so he closed a couple of shops in his dismay.

Well, I don't agree. Proportions are not the exact same between sizes, like for instance there might be 10 waist sizes, 28-38 for example, but only 3-5 different sizes for backpockets.

Why is it that you simply will not accept the fact that I have TWO sets of measurements from original 47s, and have compared original 47s to original 55s and seen that the cut is very similar. I also compared measurements from original 47s to LVC 47s and they match up well.

Well answer this then; how come I've had 3 pairs of 47s and they've all be smaller than my 55s in the entire profile? I know a guy that has original mid 50s 55s that were almost identicle in profile to the same tagged size LVC 55s and the 47s tagged the same size were smaller in the bottom leg opening, waist, thigh, rise and across the knee . Pretty much in the exact same proportion as my 47 LVCs compared to my 55LVCs both tagged the same waist. You saw pictures a few posts back and I posted the measurements.

Once again, we are not discussing sizing. You would have to compare jeans of the same actual size, not same tag size.

And comparing two repros to eachother doesn't say much about authenticity.

you are also being very dismissive of the sheer number of japanese denim reproduction manufacturers. your comment about SDA's pig patch is focusing on the details at the expense of the big picture: that the design is blatant mock up of the levi's patch replacing the mules. it's hard to see the forest from the trees... and just for the sake of argument (because it's fun), here's a map of worldwide mule distribution in 2003:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2003ass.PNG

it doesn't look like they have mules in japan. perhaps pigs are the mule equivalent in japan, hence the in-joke on SDAs patch? i really don't know or care, but it's food for the thought. when you have a 4x3" piece of leather that you can put ANYTHING on, why are COUNTLESS companies in japan putting a pair of jeans there being pulled apart by two animals or objects (pigs, trains, wagons, samurai, motorcycles, alligators, ad nauseum...)? if there was a worldwide map for for reproduction denim, why would ALL BUT TWO (LVC and Stronghold in the US) dots be in japan? these are questions worth considering... even at a national level.

I'm not being dismissive of the fact that there are a lot of Japanese denim brands, nor am I failing to see any trees.

It is in fact so that you have failed at comprehending the discussion so far.

Lmao was asking what the meaning of the details on patches that are different from Levi's mean, ie what significance do the pigs have. Under that premise of looking at these select repro brands, it wouldn't make sense for anyone to bring up what you just did--"oh, I found something here, the patches all imitate Levi's!".

And not all but two repro brands are Japanese, there's Ace(germany), Evil denim etc etc, in fact almost all highend brands take details from Levi's or other brands in history.

In the late 90s in Sweden, a chain-owned brand made Levi's ltd ed spin-offs.

So what you have unique to Japan is not any type of fascination with American 20th century history, that's present pretty much everywhere, but the fact that they are manufacturing at a larger scale and with higher quality.

As far as I see, the retro trend is the same in Japan as Sweden, Germany, UK, NA etc.

Why the Japanese would be singled out I don't know. Perhaps because when an Asian person wears typical American clothing it is more obvious that he is a part of a subculture and that the style isnt native to his country.

I live in Tokyo and I've met pretty much everyone here with a denim blog, I've been to the Ligthning festival, I've met tons of other people who wear only vintage.

When I asked some of them why they chose this particular style the answer was like with any other, not entirely clear and though out, mostly including words like 'cool' and 'interesting', or just saying 'it's the best style!'.

Just as people in the US can choose how to dress by their own conscious choice, so can Japanese, believe it or not.

Just the notion of a person sitting at home in America and saying that the reason some of the people I know dress the way they do is because of something they can't control, like the fact that Japan was a part in ww2 and that there were American soldiers in Japan, is belittling them. It's like an understanding pat on the head, like if they were kids and didn't have the same ability to make choices as you do.

Imperialism has come up a few times in this thread, and that is once again a way of making Japanese inferior to Americans, as if they must've been forced to wear repros.

Why it couldn't be that some Japanese just happen to like 50s style like some Swedish people do, I'd like to know.

In all of Europe during the 50s-60s, Levi's jeans were highly valuable. I think I remember reading that they were even smuggled to Sweden through Russia and marked up significantly before there was an distributor there.

Personally, I think Europeans and Japanese people like old Levi's styles for pretty much the exact same reasons.

The OP however is singling out the Japanese and claiming there to be a deeper cause. I don't think so.

I certainly have never said or meant that there are not variations and cultural differences. The difference I see with the Japanese is that they go to greater lengths to make what it is they re interested in. So they make the best jeans, but they also have the best restaurants in the world(tokyo is the city with the most Michelin stars), and they make the 'best' hiphip/streetwear clothing etc.

So if you're looking for something uniqely Japanese you should look for the reason for their dedication, not the reason why they like vintage style, because that is everywhere.

also, why are you so certain the japanese "imported american fashion" and that jeans weren't introduced to japan by americans during the occupation? (i have no evidence to support my claim, but do you have any to support yours? i'd love to know how the first pair of jeans reached japanese shores)

I never said anything about how the first jeans came to Japan, once again you aren't comprehending what I'm writing. It is also beyond the scope of this discussion how the first pair of jeans came to Japan, unless someone would argue that the repro trend started from this very pair.

And by the way, asking me for evidence for the type of statement you say I made is just mind boggling, in a serious discussion the person making a positive claim(the first jeans came to Japan with the US army, I can lift 500kg etc etc) would be the one with the burden of proof.

When I say the Japanese imported American style, I mean that they knowingly chose to dress in the same way as Americans. Just like a lot of people across the world.

I don't think the 55s are wide. I think the LVC 47s were/are to narrow (any way the ones from previous years). Originals between those years are going to show some fluctuation of course they're being made by humans but not the consistent slimmer profile of 47 LVCs from past years as compared to the LVC 55s which are very close in profile to original 1955 501s. I love my 47s but the cut is more modern than accurate as you have posted here you didn't see the size dif on originals that we see on previous LVCs between the 55s and the 47s.

Well, I have my second set(original 47 compared to lvc 47 here http://ringxring.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=13) of measurements from originals and the conclusion from looking at them can only be that the common claim that the LVC 47 is too slim and that it should be wider than the 55 is wrong. They are pretty much the same, give and take a few millimetres.

Yes, LVC 47 and 55s are sized differently but that was never what was discussed, the cut is what's been in discussion, not the sizing of the jeans which I think everyone knew was wrong.

So no, I don't think the 47 is too modern, it seems to be as authentic as the other years.

If you still claim that the LVC 47 is off, it would take measurements from originals and the repros to further the discussion.

So I went to Fake Alpha today to look at some vintage Levi's.

I compared the cut of a 47 and a 55. At the same measured size, w31", the hem of both pairs measured 22cm. Simple as that, 55s are not as wide as some have claimed here.

I also compared the denim of worn 47s, 55s and 66s. What I would say is that while you can perhaps see some differences between the denims when they're side by side, I highly doubt that anyone could pick out say a 60s pair in a blind test.

There can be more differences between individual 50s pairs than there can be between a 47 and a 66 pair. In general they look very similar, but I also so some odd 50s pairs that had more unevenness than others.

Also, it depends a lot on how the jeans are treated. Depending on how they're worn and washed, the same denim can look a lot different.

Also compared the denim of my JP ww2 506 jacket to originals. It's spot on.

And finally, I also looked at a 1890s original. I got pictures coming of them.

I think you're taking everything the wrong way. No one is saying that Japanese people are aliens that cannot be understood, but to say that Japanese and American cultures are identical and that everything is exactly the same as far as clothing trends and cultural values go is ludicrous. Clearly if I walk around in Tokyo and look at people's clothing, its definitely going to be different than what I would see walking around in New York. These differences not only speak to geographic separation but a difference in cultures and history as well. I could write the same paper about a trend in America, like, say, hipsters, and what that says about American culture and values and analyze it in a similar manner.

I haven't read through the thread or your original post completely to be honest so it's certainly possible that I got something wrong. Certainly people dress differently in Japan and the US. I never said anything else. What I'm saying is that there is not a specific trait in the Japanese personality that makes them like repros nor is there any deeper significance in them liking vintage American style.

You're certainly free to discuss why Japanese like certain things, but if it's going to be done by singling them out from every other ethnicity that also like this thing, it's going to tick me off a little.

What I feel is that this thread is built on the myth of the Japanese personality being so very essentially different, following different rules and logic than other people.

As far as repros and WWII goes, I myself am not sure of the connection. However, what causes the Japanese to romanticize the 1950s in AMERICA? What is the particular appeal of the 1950s? If you say the Japanese have chosen ALL elements of American fashion, I'm not sure I necessarily buy that. Perhaps I'm not

America has been the cultural center of the world for much of the 20th century. The 50s had rock n roll and the world's first youth movement. There's plenty of reasons to choose American style, but there are also those who prefer European style.

Pretty much all American styles are present here. Hiphop/bboy, true religion type style, rasta style, hippie style etc. The 50s was not singled out.

What I want to say is that American style has been imported to pretty much every part of the world since America is, and this is a fact, the cultural center of the world. It is NOT Paris or London or Europe in general.

Furthermore, the repros I'm talking about (imitating cut, but using their own details like changing the weight of the denim, etc.) are not exact copies of the originals. It doesn't seem like it would be all that much harder to try and copy the original completely, and if I'm not mistaken, that's what they originally did--however, as the repro has developed, it has taken on certain ways in which it distinguishes itself from the original. I repeat--what values lie behind these differences?

Well, I would think that the modifications of the original designs are up to the individual designers, not the Japanese society. Studio D'Artisan chose to use pigs in their design, how to you argue that's Japanese?

Another question that's come up in my mind is why repros? Among all the American elements of fashion the Japanese could have chosen during the post-war period, what was the particular appeal of denim repros to the Japanese?

The Japanese have chosen ALL elements of American fashion. Repros and vintage is just one style among others.

They started making repros when the originals became too expensive. It's extremely simple.

I don't see any signs of Japanese liking repros because of WW2. That's just not it. I would rather say it is a romanticization of the 50s, just like for us whiteys.

There are a lot of exaggerations and myths about Japanese people. First of all, you treat Japanese people who like retro clothing different than people from the Western world, for no other reason than them being Japanese. Europeans and Americans do the exact same thing, but you don't think twice about it.

What is different though is that Japanese go to greater lengths within their area of interest, i.e. wearing all vintage clothing including original 40s Levi's which costs thousands of dollars.

I would say this is because of confuscianistic ideals that are still present in society.

But to a very large extent Japanese people are just the same as 'us'.

Workwear and vintage is a trend or style in Tokyo as well as in the West. There's plenty of bad style and stupid brands here(Tokyo) too, and magazines dictate what people buy here also.

Don't treat Japanese as another species, they're not. For example I've read people trying to explaing the long economic stagnation since the 90s with Japanese being 'different' and saying they're impossible to understand.

Everything about Japan can be understood by looking at their history. They follow the same logic as everyone else. They are not different or weird. If you think so, its because you choose to see only the differences. We are so much a like.

well, I doubt getting laid by a stranger in Tokyo is on either of their minds... the 3 of us will be sharing a pretty small space, and the redhead is my on-again-off-again girlfriend.

I feel hard-pressed to come up with a stimulating itinerary, especially since this will be the brunette's first time to Japan. maybe I should be satisfied to wander around some days, unless somebody reading this post can give me some inspiration. looking for fun things to do/see/eat, even at the risk of being touristy

a good thing is to just choose an area and spend a day exploring it, without any guidance. you find the most interesting and real places this way. you should also be able to stay out all night in whatever area you choose. bars are plentiful and you can always buy booze from a konbini and kick it outside. a favourite activity in any city.

Just wanted to say, since we're having an authenticity discussion in the LVC thread, that Edwin made Lees are SPOT ON. Spot on.

That includes the denim. It really is exact. Only discrepancy is that I hear it loses indigo easily when washed, and I'm not sure if the originals did.

And of course, they're oversized compared to the originals. But I must say that I'm very impressed by them otherwise.

1) denim: 14 oz, unsanforized, right-hand twill. the denim's weave is a reproduction of the original cone mills XX denim, which means the vertical weave is loose and the horizontal weave is tight. the yarns are rope-dyed and the indigo is extra dark..

hope your jeans will be nice, but the above is not true as far as I know. Especially since it generalizes more than 50 years of Cone XX denim, it just can't be true. Characteristics changed through time.

I haven't seen any Cone denim with a loose warp though. Do you have pics of this denim?

I'm sure they'd hate seeing people showing up and buying their stuff. Yeah, must be secret.

Not all Fullcounts are good though. A lot of their stuff is very modernised too.

I agree with partytaco about the LVC denim. Especially the 47 is odd because it is like mentioned too shiny, almost like the cotton was mercerised. The 55 is better but I don't think Cone does a good job of replicating Levi denim at ALL.

I've written about JP LVC before and I think in a very sensible way, making sure not to hype it, but I would like to say that some of their denim has exactly the grainy but not slubby texture of originals.

I have a 506 jacket by LVC JP and the denim is great even though the details are off.

But my problem with LVC JP as well as EU is the shape of the backpockets. The EU 47 seems to be exaggerated to stand out. I've never seen that shape on originals. And the 55 isn't great either.

Look at these original 47s

Arrgg, lost a post, wasted more time. 502 appeared in 66, these are an early example, and absolutely predate the use of sulhpur in the dye.

I'll leave this, and acknowledge that the very best rivals, eg real McCoy, have some models which are better than most LVC. But they're also more expensive. But still, i don't know of another cmpany whcih replicates as wide a range of vintage looks as convincingly as LVC at $180 or so.

Oh, and partytaco, please post some of your vintage Leiv's on here. Make me jealous, it ain't hard!

As far as I can remember, Levi's started using sulphur-indigo dyed denim in the laste 70s.

I also think that Levi's 501XX denim looked very much the same from around 1955 to around 1970, but there were also irregularities. But I should go have a look again, has been some times.

btw, Mccoys are not good replicas. They have a strong dye and nice details but the denim looks nothing like Levi's.

Warehouse is the best, together with some denims from FOB, Fullcount. Denime is alright but the XX is too grainy.

Flat Head does not look vintage.

it looks alright but I just cant stand behind a product like this at its pricepoint.

that's just terrible.

I have to say, for a while I was debating getting a pair of these or the Warehouse 660s and those contest photos just finalized my decision to go with the 660s...while I agree that there are some interesting shades of color there, it seems pretty clear that these don't produce the sharpness / contrast that I'd like in a jean...that said, the roping is stark and beautiful on quite a few of those

the colors on the contest site are way off.

That's 6 months and 6 washes.

so you can vote for the jeans to go to the next stage in the contest now.

http://ooe-yofukuten.com/2008_1st_challenge_AG.html

【A vote rule】

・You cannot vote consecutively.It is once between 24 hours.

・You must vote for five of the different jeans all over the period.

・You cannot watch a result at the time of a vote.The multiple voting deletes.

・You can leave comment at the time of a vote（Less than 200 characters）.

・The first stage does not have ranking. Only "go to the finals stage" or "not".

The layout is a bit of a pain though, you need to click on each individual pair or 'next' on the bottom of a pair's page.

Which number is your favourite?