Pedro

7 hours ago, conqueror said:

yeah, dryers are definitely very US centric: most americans i've met seem to to use them for absolutely everything. in the UK and australia i've owned a dryer as well, but like MF i only ever really use it for towels and bed sheets. i could easily go without one if needed.

I can recall when families in the US began relying on dryers, it was when women left the traditional role of stay-at-home mom and entered the workforce. Line drying was a time consuming task and left clothing exposed to summer storms unattended.

3 hours ago, Foxy2 said:

My own understanding of people's different approach to dryers is that it is at least partially cultural - if you live in a moderate or hot climate you simply don't have and/or need a dryer.

I grew up thinking that taking a shower twice a day, washing all of your garments every single day, having giant sized washing machines and giant sized dryers in addition is a massive waste of money, water and electricity - not to speak of the use of fabric softeners...
I am not arguing that they are not convenient or very useful in less dry climates.

the other argument against dryers is what they can do to pleats & ceases and to leather patches if you are not careful.

now, we have most washing machines with integrated dryers and I only use that function every blue moon (after thinking twice) - there are no short-cuts in live!

Very interesting. I had only been thinking of this from a very denimcentric point of view—was it good or bad for the fabric, its longevity, fades, sizing, and yes the leather patch damage, etc..

By all means if someone has a personal belief about dryer usage then I don’t want to be judgemental about that.

Good to consider this.

-Pedro

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1 minute ago, istewi said:

No, he's just sick of my shit some days.

Your boots look very nicely oiled.

What leather conditioner do you use?

3 minutes ago, istewi said:

Everyday I fleece. 

Oh nooo.

Did your cat escape outside?

It usually appears on the top of steps...Lol

Very nice oil treatment on your boots. What product do you use?

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On 3/16/2019 at 8:37 PM, Broark said:

Not going to lie, I kind of like the crazy Hawaii/Okinawa jeans.

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11 minutes ago, 501XX4EVER said:

The only problem with that theory is the L.V.C. did not exist when that particular pair were made, in roughly 1980 ->1982. Also, I have never seen any L.V.C. pairs with a selvedge belt loop, it's just not something that any pair of jeans from any era actually needs. It's even more unnecessary then selvedge in the coin pockets. The main reason for the posts was to show that in the various factories weird shit happened from time to time and there was really no rhyme or reason to any of it.

On juke_kakui's instagram page he has many great examples of this kinda stuff including this on a pair of 517's...

 

Well excuse me for saying that sounds a bit pedantic.

LVC did not need to exist in 1980. All that was required was that some old selvedge fabric remnants were found in storage and utilized in an effort to keep costs down. I mean look at the color of the thread on the back of that belt loop. How does it compare to the color of the thread on the other belt loops on that same pair of britches? If it doesn't match then I am going to hazard a guess that it was sewn at an earlier time for a different line of pants but was lost, forgotten, misplaced until this pair was sewn.

I agree completely that "weird shit happens from time to time". I am just saying that some of it is maybe not so weird when you think of it from the factory floor.

2 hours ago, Foxy2 said:

hard to imagine that a sewing operator would design the layout of a mass-production line. especially, in such a cut-throat environment as a US sewing factory - even in the 60's, 70's and 80's.
but then, you never know...

the coin pockets variations look like substandard work, which was deemed acceptable as it was a non-visible and would have only be detected by the in-house quality check - and they might not have cared. the shoddy work did help saving a cent or two - if only by avoiding re-work.
back pockets are highly visible (including arcs) and were standardized in shape, position and execution - often supported by the use of templates, positioning devices and automated machinery.

I can imagine that some variations between factories are not only due to production line layout, but also due to the patterns used. those are standard blocks and patterns, but in early days (the period before and during the early days of CAD technology & cut-plotters) pattern grading, production markers, paper patterns, cardboard patterns and sewing templates was tricky business and often left to the factories.

don't forget - during those days they (L.) got themselves with the back to the wall facing syndicated buyers dictating wholesale prices and rebates...and there goes quality control (exit stage).

In the words of Robert Duvall in "Gone in 60 Seconds"..."Uh, wait a minute, whoa, hold on".  

Foxy2, did you just strawman me?  ;-) 

At no time did I mean to imply that a sewing operator would design the layout of a mass-production line. In fact, I just re-read my post and I don't see how such a conclusion was drawn?  I would say that as mass-production lines evolved over the 150-year Levi history, that the collective input of sewing operators has been given consideration but likely moreso early in the history of the industry. There is an old saying for those who continue to perform physical work for a living..."if you want to find the easiest way to do something then assign the task to the laziest guy/gal". Ofcourse, this is a jest but at it's heart is some truth. It would be surprising if floor personnel did not make requests of the floor managers to modify simple tasks or methodology. These requests would likely have been made in the hopes of cutting down on repetitive use injuries by labor or to increase their production when they were paid by "piecework" and considered on a case-by-case basis by managers. Those ideas that were accepted would then be considered in future floor designs. I have found this evolution to continue to this day in building trades but less so in Industries such as a factory floor that benefit the most by computerized models.

I would say a "cut throat" environment is exactly why personnel are encouraged to make suggestions. We see it today with efforts to make the workplace safer but profit has always been the reason. An employee, in the case above, a "sewing operator" brings up an idea at a union or employee meeting or possibly to the floor manager which then passes it up the chain of command, handed to safety officers, engineers, and bean counters for review and if it meets approval then it is implemented. 

Coin pockets vs Back Pockets. Yes, coin pockets were of lower priority for the reason you stated and would have been assigned to less experienced personnel. I would not describe it as "shoddy" work but rather indicative of "inexperienced" workers. Shoddy denotes that the worker had the ability to do better but chose to be sloppy while inexperienced is only that. The production floor would have always had individuals of all experience levels and assigned tasks are based on experience to allow for the apprentices' continued development within their craft.

I enjoyed where you wrote: "Back pockets are highly visible (including arcs) and were standardized in shape, position and execution - often supported by the use of templates, positioning devices and automated machinery." YES. Absolutely. This was actually what I suggested a few pages back that seemed to receive some pushback (i.e. standardized shapes, position, execution, templates).

Could you describe further the "tricky business" of cardboard patterns and sewing templates? What makes them tricky? It seems to me that the "tricky" part is attempting to motivate people to change and this would have been the biggest handicap when implementing a modification to the various factory floors. 

I sure have enjoyed your photos. From my understanding, industrial seamstress (sewing machinist/sewing machine operator) careers started at the apprenticeship level with the more basic tasks of assisting "cutters", and installing rivets & buttons and eventually progressing in ability to be trusted with fabricating belt loops and back pockets and cinches. These latter pieces were most likely made in quantity and staged in bins to be distributed as needed by the journeyman seamstresses who actually created the pants (and eventually the tasks became automated belt-loops and pocket setters). So it would be expected that there is much variation in the cut of these accessories even though there would have been a specific pattern identified by a #. 

From my experience in industrial settings, it was not surprising to see a quantity of a certain pattern or component made in such large numbers that when a new design was introduced (for example, a new model year) the previously sewn accessories (or manufactured components) would simply by incorporated in the new construction until they were gone. So the remaining 1954 back pocket would be found on a 1955 pant when the transition to a new pattern was first introduced.

The various pocket characteristics you have included in your photos would be a great example not only of the worn out machinery described in someone's earlier post but also of the handiwork of multiple apprentices in the early stages of their craft attempting to become familiar with the fabric, cutters, folds, presses, etc. A difference between factories would be expected as a further result of the human element. It would even be expected to see differences in the handiwork between a day and night shift at the same factory since there is almost always a rivalry/competitive pride between the 2 or 3 shifts.

The belt loop of selvedge probably has a similar story. A bulk order of selvedge belt loops was completed (lets say for an LVC line) but that particular one fell under a table and was misplaced or fell from the bin. It was later picked up and tossed in a bin of belt loops from projectile loom denim. 

I can remember as a kid with my brothers, going to the Army/Navy Surplus and a couple of Men's Shops to get my new STF for the upcoming school year. There was such limited uniformity in dimensions that we would pay almost no attention to the Waist & Inseam measurements on the tags but instead would just grab a stack of pants and start trying them on one after the other. Those that fit too big would be handed over to my older brothers and those that were to small to my younger. Us younger kids would get two pair of STF since we also had my older siblings "hand-me-downs" and my older brothers would get 3-4 pair. Anyway, the variations in the fit were so great that it would seldom result that even two of our pairs were tagged the same size.

But as I think about it, the Army/Navy Surplus typically sold "Irregulars" so that might account for some of the variation. My guess is these Irregulars were the handiwork of newer machine operators who had not yet developed the skillset to produce consistency. It must have been something to work on the production floor of those factories and to hear the various machines hum away and the smell of cotton, dyes & machinery lubricants permeate the air...and probably having to scrub off the indigo from the hands at the end of shift.

Anyway, great photos. You must have quite a collection.

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1 minute ago, elmcitizen said:

Damn, I see:

and I think the 1947 Type II cut (2009) not a jacket. I'd love a slightly slimmer fit in the Hawaii or Okinawa denim.

Agree slighter slimmer on Oki & HI.

Have you tried ordering a waist size down? Thats my next purchase.

Also my HI fit slimmer than my Oki. Is this typical?

thanks

28 minutes ago, Maynard Friedman said:

One like this?

You guys never fail to astound.

If I ever become mad wealthy then I am going to model my daily existence on your own...juxtaposing the lasting and timeless beauty of the artisan.

Both that of the stoneworker of centuries past and the bespoke clothier of today.

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4 minutes ago, SmokeStackLightning said:

I need a proper camera setup. 

Buzz

Buzz

Sugar Cane

Quoddy 

 

Love that jacket.