428CJ

I am not sure what you mean by "counterfeit" in this case.

They are either original ("vintage") jeans, or they are authorized reproductions made by Edwin under license from Lee. Neither of these could appropriately be called "counterfeit." "Counterfeit" would be an unauthorized reproduction.

Again, the question is whether they are old jeans, or authorized reproductions. "Counterfeit" is not really one of the likely options.

Not possible to tell whether they are Lee Archives or originals, without more pix.

The fades certainly look fake to me. But that said, sometimes old fades that are totally genuine can look what we would call "fake."

The rear tag going threadbare and the rear patch shrinking, hardening, and falling part of the way off would not be factory distressing. That doesn't mean they aren't repros, though. They could just be worn and repeatedly washed repros.

Are there any inside tags, or evidence of them formerly being there?

24 minutes ago, Double 0 Soul said:

I think by this stage, you're only talking to yourself here...

Perhaps, and perhaps not, and no way to know. But I said what I meant and meant what I said, and that's all that matters to me. You can't force anyone to read something or to hold a certain opinion. None of that is my goal. With limited options, I did was I could to make a truthful series of statements, and I can't do much beyond that.

As explained in my initial post on the issue, this is a case, metaphorically speaking, of "the attempted cover up being worse than the crime."

The work was an embarrassment. However, I kept my cool about it and was reasonable about a solution, giving a little on my end just to settle it quickly. In the end, the real-world solution would have been easy: hem the pants higher to salvage some material for me. I'll fix the patch by hand. I'll compromise with Railcar by spending 40 to 60 minutes of my time driving there and back, and 20 or 30 minutes of my time hand sewing the patch. They spend five minutes doing a hem job. Done, and seems beyond fair to Railcar. Why that very reasonable offer of mine was an unacceptable solution to them is beyond me. They keep saying they couldn't have satisfied me...but I told them exactly how they could, and that they could knock it out that day if they were available.

Instead, I get a bunch of nonsense from them simply because they took personal offense. Then they come here and post distortions and lies and continue their nonsensical arguments.

Again, five minutes of their time to realize a solution that is beyond fair...or possibly get this crap (which, believe it or not, I dislike too)? Hopefully THAT is the "learning experience" that the owner spoke of.

I quite honestly don't care what people think of me, and I didn't come here for "support." I'm not going to dive in to that whole leg of the discussion beyond this paragraph. I came here to lodge a review, and I was truthful in my posts. I don't run a business here, and it's just a hobby club, so been unpopular doesn't "ding" me. We don't need to love each other or agree with each other. I've stated what I felt needed to be stated to make my points to at all steps of the way, and that's good enough for me, regardless of how it is received.

Totally willing to go private again, but if nonsense and bent truths keeps getting posted by RFG, then I will, of course, respond with sensible counter-arguments.

This really had to be two posts at most. I complain. RFG says sorry we'll fix it like you wanted after all. Oh well.

Nobody needs to have any "interest" in this. Nobody needs to like any of my posts. The point is that it's posted, and there it sits. Private communication was shut down unnecessarily, over a very easy to solve issue. At that point, it turns into a publicly viewable complaint that hopefully makes a few people think twice.

2 minutes ago, Steven RFG said:

Hi again. I was hoping this was over in the public forum.

 

- We missed a detail on the alteration after we repaired the previous work.

- We offered to fix the detail that we missed.

- You replied back and made it pretty obvious we could not meet your needs.

- We refunded you the whole amount for the service to your credit card. Repairing the jeans and altering them at our loss.

- We felt like we could not meet your needs and your expectations and you should try the other tailors you mentioned in your email.

 

Hopefully we could just end this. Thanks.

You were hoping I would just swallow your response full of incorrect statements?

You stopped responding to e-mails – not the other way around. This could have been totally private.

You did not "repair" previous work, nor would it be relevant to any of your points if you had.

You did not "miss a detail." You did an obvious hack job on a leather patch that cannot be replaced.

I did not make it obvious you could not "meet my needs." I explained that your initial response made no sense to me, explained exactly why, proposed an alternative solution (just hem the jeans again to get me some spare material, and let me re-stitch the patch myself if you can't do it perfectly – and if you can do it perfectly, go ahead), and I asked to come in that day and put it to bed.

If you have refunded me, excellent. I am still waiting to receive said refund, and I also have no receipt of refund having been issued, because you cut off private communication.

We could have ended this Friday with five minutes of your time. I was willing to commute out there again to put it to be with a simple hemming job. You just didn't like having your points demolished, and let your ego get in the way of an easy solution.

Any time you wish to e-mail, you are free to do so. I sent the last e-mail, not you. You can quit posting falsehoods and spin and go back to private communication any time you wish.

1 hour ago, Steven RFG said:

Hi everyone, Steven here. Just wanted to chime in. I thought this issue, we already resolved via email.

First off thanks for everyone and their interest.

And YES there is two sides of the story. I agree this is not the platform for this kind of conversion. And yes, it was already handled and concluded via email.

I'll try to keep this short. So I don't have to explain every line item that was mentioned. This is just quick summary outline.

 

When this gentleman at his  first contact with us, he wrote a long email insulting our quality, work and marketing. Not even giving us the opportunity to resolve the issue.

His jean came in with a horrible downsize job that was not good. It was pinched at the waistband and we had to spend time to unravel the tangled work. We reversed the previous job to get it back to its normal state at no extra cost. The work was very bad and was a good size mess.

We told him and explained to him that our work was pretty good and we had to actually fix the previous persons work. And if we missed a detail then we would go over it and do what we can at no extra charge.

Also to mention. When this gentleman came in he asked if we could use the same waistband button and we said it can not be reused as we have to cut it off. We will install a new one and try to match it to the same color as original. I guess he didn't believe us because he told us to save him the removed cut off button. We told him it was not reusable when he dropped off the pair. So he was told that from the start.

He wrote an even longer email, as you could imagine, to us saying a lot of stuff including he has other local options.

We were going in circles at this time and we felt like this was not going anywhere with him. We even issued him a refund for the service we provided.  So all this was actually free to him.

We told him that we feel that our service might not satisfy his expectations so it would be better to use one of the local services he mentioned in his previous email. 

At the end of the day, the pant was 100 times better and repaired from when it came in.

 

So my thought is this.

I wish he would have gave us the opportunity to handle this problem when he contacted us. Instead he wrote us pages of emails.

He was even local to us, so he could have just came in again and I could have probably done some fixes while he waits.

We are honestly really friendly. All of us here at the shop and take great pride in what we do. We are denim enthusiast  just like all of you guys! We love the stuff!

This was a case that got blown way out of proportion right at the start. Could have been easily resolved.

We took this as a learning experience. Please feel free to message me if you have any questions. Or email.

 

 

This is almost entirely false.

First paragraph. My initial e-mail was not long or aggressive. It did not address their general quality, work, or marketing. And unless I was just telling them to go screw themselves right off the bat, how can an initial e-mail do anything other than give them the "opportunity to resolve the issue"?

As explained in detail, the jeans did not come to them with "a horrible downsize job" that was "very bad and a good size mess." No material was removed or "altered" before. There were four tacks that temporary held hidden pleats in place. On the one that they left tacked, it took me exactly 15 seconds to cut the tack with a blade.

I asked for the waistband button because the stock button was quite nice to me, and I didn't like Railcar's two button options. Sometimes, if you cut the tack button off from the back, a waistband button can be re-tacked. Railcar cut through the button shank from the front instead. I don't get this point of criticism. 

As for the e-mail "going in circles," that's not really an objectively backable statement. I must disagree with it. I simply asked them to resolve the issue in a way other than what they initially offered. I asked them to hem the pants again in order to salvage some belt loop material, instead of giving me two black belt loops. (This is something that normally takes them five minutes while you wait; seems like a perfectly reasonable and cost effective solution to the entire problem.) I told them I normally use other local tailors, but I had wanted to give Railcar a try...and the reason for my saying this is because they had attempted to make it seem like it would be hard to find someone else who is a good tailor, therefore I shouldn't criticize them (a nonsense point).

They simply didn't want to deal with me any more, because I had taken them to task on every one of their B.S. points from their initial response to me. Nobody likes being told they did a bad job. Nobody likes doing what a customer requests to settle a problem instead of what they want to do to settle it. Nobody likes reading a lot of words. I am sure they didn't want to work with me. But oh well. That's business. I didn't say anything outrageous to them via e-mail. But they said plenty of nonsense to me.

"At the end of the day, the pant was 100 times better" is hyperbolic and irrelevant to the issue at hand. It moved from a temporary tack job, one step above a pinning, to a permanent alteration. It was not a "repair" of a horrible previous job. I even explained to Karin (not sure of spelling) when I dropped off that this is what had been done, but I guess it's another thing in addition to the request for cut leg ends, that she didn't notate. By the very nature of making the alteration permanent, the jeans are "better" than before, and it being "better" does not negate any problems that there were with the work. They seem to keep hammering this point that simply because the jeans moved from temporary tacks to a permanent alteration, the work on the jeans was so difficult, and should not be judged so hard.

I gave them a specific opportunity to fix the problems, and specifically asked if I could come in on a certain day, three times, so "I wish he would have gave us the opportunity to handle this problem when he contacted us" makes no sense.

I did not write "pages" of e-mails instead of seeking a resolution. I wrote them for the purpose of seeking a resolution. There was a 250 word initial "complaint." Their reply was nonsense to me, so I wrote a 750 word response, still seeking resolution, in a very specific way. The other e-mails were short. I'm sorry, but 750 words is a three minute read at average reading ability, and hardly seems worthy of complaint in a debate seeking resolution on finer points.

Yes, it could have been easily resolved. That's the point. I asked for a certain resolution, on a specific day. And got told to go somewhere else.

As for the refund, I haven't seen it yet. I am hoping it comes through. I paid in person

And the mistakes on the hem job are still unresolved.

The bottom line here, once you cut through all the verbage of the e-mails, is that they got upset that I complained. They offered me a certain solution. I said, well, how about this instead. They said go somewhere else, take your money back. I said that doesn't address the problem. They said go somewhere else. I said well, that still doesn't address the problem. And I still don't have the money back, 6 days later.

Their initial e-mail (all names removed):

-------------------------------------------------

Hi,

On 12/7/2019 at 10:54 PM, erockisalive said:

I can only speak from my own experience, but I go to Railcar anytime I need work done on a jean. They’ve downsized two pairs and hemmed a couple others and they’ve always done great work and have been super friendly.  Sorry you had a bad experience. 

You and many others...which is why I trusted them.

I don't "hate" them on a personal level. It's not about that. They simply put out some embarrassingly bad work for me...and instead of being able to take the blow back that comes when you do that as a high-end business, and instead of doing some VERY SIMPLE things to make it right to a customer's satisfaction, they bailed like children due to personal offense/ego – the inability to take deserved, yet still measured, criticism, and to meet very simple and reasonable customer requests to make things square as they can be made in a bad situation. And to top it off, they not only bailed, but they still haven't refunded me as they said they would, and they are ignoring the still open problems with the hemming service (either fix it for me or refund me, because you didn't do what I asked for – those are your very easy choices). I just think their e-mails were full of flat-out wrong and illogical statements, they shirked proper accountability in lieu of placing it on me for being overly critical, and displayed unacceptably poor use of the English language for a professional shop. It was flat out unprofessionalism in nearly every way. They need to be taken to task, and the reviews balanced to reflect what is perhaps a more realistic picture of their quality level.

FWIW, I fully expect my post to be denigrated and possibly nuked, as they are an advertiser here, and probably buddy/buddy with lots on this forum. But that's not too relevant to me. I'm not entering myself in a popularity contest. 

He sure is busy as hell on Instagram, hawking new shit and posing with his hip buddies. If it wasn't for that, I don't think the people waiting would be half as pissed.

Just got a job done at Railcar.

The job was a maximum waist downsizing on a pair of EU Lee 101 Riders. I sized these up to fit my thighs. But with a modern tapered jean, which is basically shaped like an upside own triangle, that means you get a grossly oversized waistband. So, S.O.P. for thick thighed folks is to size them for the thighs, and then have a tailor bring in the waist. I had previously altered these by hand, by tacking hidden pleats behind four of the belt buckles. This was to temporarily test how much downsize was needed, and to at least get them wearable for the time being. This actually worked really well, and they could have been left that way. But the plan was always for it to be temporary, until I got them to a real tailor. I wore them like this for maybe a week total over the past year, then found the time to take them in for the work.

I usually go to Denim Doctors or more recently Double Needle (both of which have always given me top notch quality, and are significantly cheaper than Railcar), or Anthony the Tailor, a local old school guy about 70 years old who is a true artist (but not cheap or fast). But out of curiosity, based on lots of favorable online comments, and simply wanting to give them some business because I like that they are nice kids from my neck of the woods, I wanted to try Railcar's odd method of downsizing that I'd heard about. Found out when I got there that the price had gone up since last I heard, but it was OK. I was already there, and glad to give them the dough.

I ordered a hem job at the same time, with the understanding that the cut length would eventually be used to craft some extra belt loops for the pants. Total: $100.

As far as fit, the alteration worked splendidly, as expected. But I was badly surprised at some of the details of the work, based on the glowing reviews this place gets from the online community, on their high-end prices and image, and on their marketing of themselves as repair experts. Here is some examples of the fine work by "the experts with the years of hands-on skill...to do the work correctly."

Here is what they did to the gorgeous black patch. I will assume that most of you here know how old-style Lee patch stitching is supposed to run, with two divots per line. But even if you don't know about Lees, you can kind of see where the factory stitching was, and those factory lines are the lines that Railcar was supposed to follow exactly. I overexposed the pix to make this more evident. I should note that the top left stitching tore loose the first time they were worn, for a short five hour shift at work; they did not get returned to me with the stitching torn out.

First pic is as shot. Second is the same pic, but marked up to show the factory line vs. Railcar's line. Red is factory line. Blue is Railcar's.

Sorry, but this is a no-no on a nice leather patch, as a denim specialty shop especially. If you can't do it by machine (which you SHOULD be able to), then you simply do it by hand, rather than just giving up and doing a Frankenstein job.

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Some additional pix showing each divot more closely (who knew Dr. Frankenstein would some day end up working at Railcar!):

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And examining the back side behind the patch reveals what I think are threads that were not even tied off (correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see any tiny little knots):

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This really got me too. This is where they take off the excess waistband length after bringing in the high hips. Nowhere near a square fold there, compete with a very unevenly spaced stitch from the edge. Any fashion design 101 student would be ordered to re-do this by a teacher/master. I've seen better handiwork at Sears. I could have done a better job myself on this part of the job. In the end, this is not a cosmetic detriment, because it is hidden. I wouldn't bother to have it re-done. But it is an indicator of the level of care and pride in workmanship that was used during the work, and it is not what should be expected from a denim specialist and expert. In a specialized technical field (which I do work in), I would never release work with this amount of imprecision.

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And to top it off, in the end, then never gave me my belt loop material. When I dropped off, that message never made it onto the work order form, so the cutoffs got tossed. Good luck matching this material, which is a polished black that is designed not to fade.

And finally, after telling me that they'd undo my tacks that held the hidden temporary pleats, they left one in place.

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So, I was a bit confused. This does not sound like the norm based on everything I have heard about this company's alterations and repairs. I contacted them [nicely and formally] with a fairly brief explanation of the major points of concern, explaining that they had fallen short of my expectations for an expert tailor.

The exchange did not go well. They came back defensive by saying that my statement that they had fallen short of my expectations for an expert tailor was "a little extreme." They assumed that they had to "fix" these jeans from the previously performed "bad work," and assumed that I had come to them because "someone else was not able to do it," then stated that "it is probably difficult to find the kind of service we provide anywhere else." They offered to fix the patch stitching and to install belt loops for me.

I replied, in detail this time. I told them that no, they did not fix previously done bad work, and I did not seek them out because nobody else could have done it. They undid temporary trial run tack stitches to make a permanent alteration instead. I explained the I did not use my usual choices for alterations because I wanted to give Railcar a try for a variety of reasons (good reviews, local business, I grew up the the San Gabriel Valley, them getting local kids into a traditional craft, etc.). I explained my feeling that any old black would not do for the belt buckles, and instead, I would rather they hem the pants higher again to salvage just enough material to make belt loops. And I asked if I could come in today to get that done (they hem on the spot for walk-in customers – a great service FWIW). As for fixing the patch, I explained that it was already perforated with excess holes, and it could not tolerate any further mistakes. I said that if they thought they could do it perfectly, they were welcome to go ahead. But if not, then I would fix it by hand.

They seemed to be very offended by me answering each of their previous points in detail. The response was for them to tell me they could not meet my expectations, and they were giving me my money back for the alteration, and that I should go to one of my usual tailors. They ignored my request to re-hem the pants. Basically, I got fired as a customer, because my expectations were unreasonably high.

My response was to say OK, but what about getting me that excess material vie re-hemming? Can I come in?

Their response was again, pretty much a carbon copy of the previous message. We can't meet your expectations. Go to another tailor. Dang it! Fired again for expecting and demanding expert work from an expert.

I replied to that, saying I still need that material. If you won't make good on that, then you should refund me for the hem job as well.

They have not fired me a third time yet. Nor have they issued a refund yet.

So in the end, what they effectively stated was that the following are impossible to meet, "extreme" expectations for them: 1) That specific customer instructions be notated, relayed, and followed. 2) That the original holes in leather patches are exactly followed when re-stitching. 3) That folds be straight and the entirety of a stitch be evenly spaced from an edge.

I am sorry, but those are simply no brainers, not extreme, impossible to meet expectations from a denim specialist tailor.

The icing on the cake: I find out later that it's the co-owner I'm talking to. I had expected that such responses were coming from a young shop manager who felt that she had been personally attacked because I did't like her craftsmanship.

I went in to one of my normal denim tailors today to drop off some jackets for alteration, and he said that the patch thing is not only a major no brainer and that it is always very, very important to use the original holes on a leather patch, but also that it's not difficult on a technical level to follow those holes.

Weird experience, man. In the end, I just want them to cop to their mistakes, not argue with me about them. And just get some belt loop material for me by re-hemming the jeans an inch higher. I find it unfathomable that they claim they don't have the raw skill to perfectly sew the patch, but in the end, if they can't do it, then I'm perfectly happy to do it by hand myself.

I would not be posting this based on the work alone. I would not be posting it if not for the terrible exchange that followed.

I would love to post the actual e-mails, but it's too much at this point in a post that is already very long and detailed, and nobody would probably care anyhow.

3 hours ago, Spiraltoy said:

Anyone on here who has soaked a blanket lined type1? Is it doable/advisable? 

I have one, but haven't got it wet yet. It's very far from needing it, at only about 30 days in (actual wear).

As always, I would start with a very cold hand wash and air dry, and see what happens. You can always introduce additional shrink later, but you can't take it away once it has happened.

One thing for sure is that you don't ever want to dry hot, due to the wool content. Even if you do machine wash and dry the jacket some day, you want to machine dry with no added heat. Most dryers have this setting, but if yours doesn't, then just air dry.

On 11/24/2019 at 1:51 AM, Sympathy-For-The-Denim said:

just have seen this section of rebel without a cause from 1955 and fell in love that beautiful marble denim of james deans openent corey allen, which look almost likea moon wash pair of the 80s.

I wonder if there is a bullet proof method to achieve this effect? probellerbeanies recent shots of his 501s show that just washing doesn´t cause it.

on from minute 1 you have a close up of the pair:

I hate that look. I have passed over many a pair of otherwise cool old jeans because they have it.

If you want it, try machine washing without turning them inside out, but don't pull them from the machine when they are done. Let them sit there all day after the spin cycle so the ugly marbled creases get set in to the fabric. Then put them in a dryer on low heat for a long time, without turning them inside out (no fabric softener sheets, of course). The tumble dryer will abrade the tips of the marbled creases.

14 hours ago, JohnM said:

I recently picked up a pair of LVC 1947 jeans (Cone Mills, size 36).  The fit is great -- pretty roomy after a warm soak, but they should shrink down to be a comfortable (if not exactly trim) pair of jeans.

I'm considering adding a pair of 1944 and/or 1966.  Any thoughts on whether I should stick with a 36 waist or consider a 34?  My preference is for jeans with a reasonably high rise, generous top block, and reasonably trim waist and legs.

Sorry if this has been asked recently.  I'm working my through this thread but have a ways to go.

You don't want '66s, then. The are lower on the spectrum of 501 rises. My 36s are only a 12 1/4" rise after a single cold wash. I.e. they will probably settle at 12" once the jeans are completely shrunk. They have a bell shaped top block, and a slight bit more taper than repros of earlier years (except the '54, which is more tapered).

There isn't an LVC that meets your criteria exactly. Anything with a reasonably high rise and generous top block (e.g. most pre-'66 models) isn't going to have a reasonably trim waist and legs. Anything with a generous top block and reasonably trim waist and legs (e.g. '66) isn't going to have a high rise.

I think the '76s will get you the closest. They have the '66-like taper, but IME 1/2 inch more rise (which I would gladly welcome on my '66s). However, be aware that the hips are significantly narrower, and the waistband larger than on '66s. '76s have a very "slim straight" top block.

'44s are a slim straight high rise cut. My 36s have a 14" rise.

I would think that your best bet is a pair of '55s, and then have them tapered by a quality tailor. They will give you the top block (hips, rise, and waist) you want, while giving you ample fabric in the legs to have shaped however you want by a tailor. 

N.O.S. = new old stock.

Technically, it means that it's an old product, but it's as it would have appeared brand new on a retailer's shelf.

The condition of N.O.S. is the same as N.W.O.T. items (new without tags). These would be items that were bought, taken home, de-tagged, perhaps tried on once or worn for a few hours, and then shelved and never worn again. The difference is that N.O.S. has all original labels and packaging.

Deadstock is another term for N.O.S.

These three terms get used interchangeably a lot of the time, even though N.O.S./deadstock are not technically the same as N.W.O.T.

13 hours ago, propellerbeanie said:

Many thanks for the confirmation @beautiful_FrEaK and @428CJ. This has always been my understanding, but I've noticed that some people think their jeans put on weight after shrinking. Needed to make sure I wasn't going crazy haha

The do put on what we call "weight" in regards to a fabric. It's just that the total weight of the garment does not increase.

5 hours ago, propellerbeanie said:

Just to double check, the whole "10oz before wash, 12oz after wash" applies to a square yard of fabric, right? That is, the jeans itself after a wash doesn't actually gain weight because the amount of fabric stays the same... I could be a dummy, but that's how I always understood it.

Yes. The weight goes up due to shrinkage increasing how much fabric is contained in a square yard. Shrinkage obviously can't make the entire garment heavier; it just affects the per yard part of the calculation.

It's definitely a lot better looking with the cuffs unbuttoned. Rolled up or let hang makes no difference – as long as they are unbuttoned. 

Dude What The Heck,

That thing fits like a close fitting denim shirt. The pleats are flaring, and the sleeves are skin tight and short.

If you're into it, then you're happy. But it's definitely being worn at least one size downsized, and probably two. Shouldn't have soaked it IMO.

Definitely much better unbuttoned IMO, and I would also unbutton the cuffs. Both techniques will help to minimize its overly tight appearance.

Probably not LVC. Is there a thread for regular Levi's stuff?

On 10/18/2019 at 5:48 AM, lifted said:

so you think they could be authentic Levi's? from around the same '54 time period? can they possibly be '54 501Z model which would explain the zipper fly and taper cut? although the back tag is paper and not leather.

My post to which you are responding already made this clear. There is no way they are "true vintage" or LVC. Absolutely nothing is correct for either. And even without any specific jeans knowledge, you can look at the interior tag material, style, typeface, etc. and use your common sense and general used clothing instincts to see that they are likely from the late '80s at the very earliest – probably later.

As for whether they are actually Levi's or not, I have no idea. While they tend to scream "FAKE," the Levi's company have certainly made weirder combinations of features over the years.

The top button didn't look "right" to me in your initial pix, but I wasn't quite willing to make a judgment that it wasn't a real Levi's button based only on a low-res pic.

Weird jeans. Single stitch arcuates, tons of taper, big E, single stitch inseam, not selvedge fabric, zip fly, paper patch.

The taper, zipper, big E, and single stitch inseams would seem to indicate a jean in the style of LVC '54s. However, they don't use selvedge material, there is no interior tagging that seems to support them being LVCs, the tag is not leather, and the single stitch arcs don't belong if they are supposed to be '54s.

I would guess that they were some sort of short lived non-LVC variant that for some reason featured the big E, single stitch inseams, and single needle (or somehow simulated single needle) arcs as special features.

I, for one, like the look of the more-square-than-usual pockets on the LVC '66s.

10 hours ago, Flash said:

So you think all pairs post ww2 501's had symmetrical arcs ? Because they were all over the place 

Exactly.

Different people, different factories, pockets made ahead of time en masse. They are all over the place in both depth, symmetry, and height on the pockets.

I am sure LVC just based the design off of one particular pair, or noticed a trend among the jeans of that era, from their vault.

They are obviously shallower than most, but they don't seem like an extreme aberration, or like they are trying hard to look "freehand" to me.

On 9/30/2019 at 1:43 AM, Pedro said:

Well the wash helps it a little but the spacing between the two arcuate lines is too uniform to match their desire for a freehand look by their making the arcuate so mismatched between left & right of center. They are trying too hard to make it unique and it looks like a 2nd grader who still lacks spacial awareness and balance.

Huh? That first sentence is confusing.

The spacing between the two arcuate lines is set by the spacing of the double needles on the sewing machine used. 

Not sure they are "trying" to achieve a freehand look so much as basing the arcs off of an example of the real deal in their archives.

I'm also not sure where being washed or not comes into play.

13 hours ago, Pedro said:

What the heck?

This arcuate is hideous!

LVC 1966s?

Looks great to me. I like all kind and manner of Levi's arcs, and those are no exception. I love the big pockets of the '66s, and the interesting looking shallow dip on the arcs.

My pair after their first wash (posted above on this page):