ColonelAngus

Can any of you tell me if there's a difference in fit between the 574's and 1300's? Are the 1300's bigger, as in I should go a half size down? I wear a 10 in the 574's but want to try something different

I think the whole mainstream raw/heritage menswear thing is pretty much over. The boots/raws/flannel look went out of fashion a while ago, and the kickstarter brands are now chasing after something else. It's fine with me, there will always be people who love to sell jeans and wear jeans, and they won't be going anywhere.

Agreed. I think it's over too with leather goods as well. Far too many people making wallets & belts and very few that offer something unique.

Totally agree. Plus they were all offering identikit products. Cone Mill denim, slim cuts, plain pockets. Got very boring.

yep. I had to ask myself, how are these kickstarter denim startups offering Cone Mills denim any different than established brands that offer Cone Mills denim? Sure, the price point might be cheaper for some but if there are a dozen denim companies all offering the same thing at what point do you just call it a day? plus, i've found that some newer denim companies, not necessarily kickstarter companies, seem to overdo things with branding. I'm thinking of companies like Civilianaire, who embellish their jeans with those stupid hangtags or those that use zippers instead of button-flies because it's cheaper. Paying $80 for a pair of raw denim is pointless if they look like crap and are made like crap.

Is the "Kickstarter-Raw-Denim-Wave" over or do I just don't notice them anymore?

The only one I am aware of is BDD from Benzak

I think the crowd-funding craze has hit a peak, especially with denim companies. There are a few, and I do mean a few, that might offer something unique, but most of them come off as inexperienced and seem like they're trying to make a pitch for something that seems redundant. The whole 'we're cutting out the middle man' meme is a bunch of crap for a lot of these companies. crowd funding has worked and continues to work for those that started early, so companies like Gustin and Taylor Stitch. I'm at the point now where i'll only buy from established companies. plus, I've already been burned once **cough**Lawless Denim**cough** and have no desire to throw my money away again.

Must've been a flash sale.

The reason why I like the button fly is that your denim will fade around them and leave its mark, like a wallet fade. Zip flys won't do that

If the £ hadn't nosedived due to Brexit, I'd be tempted to get a pair with shovelhead pockets.

I dig the shovel head pockets but also like the regular pockets.

15.3 oz selvedge on sale for $225. damn, this is so tempting right now.

Occasionally with zip flys my boxers would get stuck in the zipper and once that happens all the time savings of the zipper are gone having to wrestle the cloth out for a minute.

be grateful you don't get your nads caught in the zipper, franks and beans style

Zipper vs Button

 

I’m pretty sure most of you prefer the button fly for the more rugged and authentic look.

 

With my Warehouse 1105 I have a zipper fly (also authentically correct for the 505) and while I love the ease and speed to close the pants, I tend to forget to close zipper. That never happens to me with jeans which have a button fly.

 

How many of you guys wear a pair with zipper at all?

button fly, hands down. Before I knew anything about raw denim it was zippers all the way, but now I can't imagine owning a pair of denim with them. It's weird. I've wanted to try the Lee 101 stuff because the denim looks decent, but most of their releases have the dreaded zipper fly which completely ruins it for me.

I think I worded it incorrectly. I meant as in low tech in terms of comms, which may still be a misconception.

 

When I went there, I was shocked that lots of things are still paper based. And that fax is still important. Things like that.

I was born in Japan and lived there til my teen yrs (mom is Japanese) and my experience is that they do in fact lack in technology in some areas and many other regards. On the one hand, they do develop amazing consumer tech, but I remember going to a hospital one time to get x-rayed and the machine they used looked like it was straight outta the 60's. I'm basing this off of hospitals in the US where everything is state of the art. Also, their infrastructure seems a bit run down. The hospitals look like crap as well as the universities.

one thing I will say about Denimio and OD, they both have the shittiest websites i've ever browsed through. I mean Jesus H. Christ, it takes forever just to load product info.

I keep coming back to N&F. I wish I was into raw denim 4 or 5 yrs ago. I'm always coming across old models that look pretty darned cool, like the colored weft denim and the sashiko denim they put out awhile ago. I know some of you don't like N&F but these guys know their stuff and put out some amazing jeans imo. always looking forward to seeing what they come up with next

What we're talking about here is not a monopoly in any way.  I believe the term you're looking for is "price fixing".

The idea of price fixing has negative connotations, yet it is used by many high end companies from Rolex (and nearly every other fine watch making company) to audiophile equipment to classic couture brands.  It is the only way they see a future in their brand internationally, without it they cannot survive outside of their native country or region.  

thanks for the clarification. again, I know nothing of international commerce, so take my comment with a grain of salt. I was looking at this from a consumer perspective rather than a business perspective.

I think the point isn't whether the locations "justify" the markup, it's more of what does the shop need to charge to survive at that location? Hey man - if these places can pull it off by charging what they do, then more power to them! That's phenomenal! I'm overjoyed when I see SE open up store after store - I'm rooting for them!

I also want to expound on something I said earlier: while I don't think Denimio is to blame for doing what they do (and they do it well!), I also completely respect that ability of brick and mortar stores to approach manufacturers that are sold on Denimio and complain - I think of it is an opportunity to negotiate/re-negotiate ("if you continue selling to Denimio, and they can still offer those prices internationally, then we will stop carrying your stuff"). That's the nature of business - each person uses their strengths to profit the most. For some brands, they might view it as critically important to have a foothold in America at places like SE. But others might not care at all, telling our brick and mortar stores to just suck it up. So then the ball's back in our stores' courts: continue to sell those brands or move on ...

But isn't this just creating a monopoly on goods? Not saying it's necessarily good or bad in this instance but I think if consumers are forced to buy product at an inflated prices then no one wins. I have nothing against Denimio or OD or any B&M that sells high end denim. Every store has their strengths and weaknesses but competition is king.

I don't think there is any ethical duty from the consumer here. Buy from whichever vendor creates value for you. Customer service vs price. If someone manages to do both, then there you go.

agreed. I think the term 'value' is subjective anyways. Without getting too embroiled with the politics of international business it makes me wonder whether or not certain B&M's opt for exclusivity with denim brands. This would certainly eliminate competition. But competition will always be fierce in a free market. If anything, Denimio and OD have given consumers the ability to try Japanese brands without the huge price tag attached. I don't know enough about Denimio's & OD's business dealings to start casting them in a bad light, so I won't make any comments about that. Plus, from an economic point of view, not many people have $300+ they can throw at a pair of Japanese denim. I've said this before but if B&M's want to survive in this economy then maybe exclusive collabs are the way to go. I know several B&M's have already done this so it certainly appeals to denim geeks that want something unique and original.

Okayama Denim is widely considered to be pretty awful, there have been a lot of reports of bad customer service and other issues with them. Doesn't seem that Denimio has this problem, though I haven't bought from them myself.

Never had an issue with OD, but i've ordered from them once

I do an initial tub soak to get the starch and some shrink out. Any wash after that the jeans get tyrned inside out, get thrown in the washer and then i'll use either woolite dark or a dye free detergent.

I understand that some time ago Full Count weren't happy with the prices Denimio were selling their products at (lower than their own) and insisted they raise them. It could be the next logical step for them to end the relationship completely. The same may be true of the other brands. Not only are they and their key retailers being undercut but they may not like being perceived as 'cheaper' brands.

Is/was Denimio selling their stuff below market value or at fair market value? If they were in fact undercuttibg the brands they carry I can see why it might be a problem. However, if they're charging the fair market value, that is, the same cost an item would sell for if you were a shopper in Japan, then I don't see why that's an issue. But, I don't own a business so don't know the complexities of international commerce. Ithink in order for B&M's to thrive they have to offer exclusivity, which some do.

Hey Denim Heads, hope everything is good with you all. Most are probably lapping up the summer sun, sweeeeet.

I have been getting a lot of e-mails asking about the next Special Roll model. I have been thinking about it a bit lately. The new back pocket options are quite successful, they give the customer a choice to semi build a pair of jeans with their own style.

I was thinking instead of a set SR model, bringing in different pocket liner options, some cool off the shelf prints, like the western ones I have used before and some custom printed ones too. Also bringing in a different roll of denim every so often along with the 15.3oz and 13.5oz Indigo's (coming back soon). So it's kind of like build your own SR?

What do you guys/gals think? Let me know.

Bests Ande

 

 

i'm sure you guys saw this comment on Ande's FB page. What do you guys think? I'm torn because I I like the SR models due to their exclusivity, but I know they can be hit or miss for Ande, which is understandable. Offering additional options like shovel head pockets, pocket lining, etc., would give the customer the ability to customize their jeans, which I think is cool. My only question is, how would this alter the cost? I think a stitch color option would be cool too. Ande did an SR model way back when that had blue wing arc stitching on the back pockets, which I thought was a nice touch.

Most people probably wouldn't use a brick and mortar store if they're sure of the sizing and can make a significant saving buying directly from Japan.

I have bought directly from b&m shops in the UK and would like to support them but the price differential on products between the UK and Japan is often sooo large that it makes no rational economic sense to do so. There seems to be less of a price disparity in the USA (I'm sure there are valid reasons for this [European import duties perhaps] and it isn't just due to UK retailers hiking up prices unreasonably) and if I lived there, I'd be more inclined to buy from BiG, Self Edge, S&S, Blue Owl, etc if they were within easy reach than I am from shops here in London.

another point i'd like to make is that a lot of customers simply do not have access to B&M stores in their hometowns that carry those hard to find Japanese brands, thus, online ordering is the only way to go. Where I live there are maybe 2 or 3 B&M's that sell denim and they're mostly US brands. I think one of them carries Momotaro but i'm not a fan so it makes no difference to me. For the uninitiated, ordering direct from Japan makes the most sense from a financial point of view, simply because not all of us have a disposable income.

I've stated this before but a lot of people are all about customer service when it comes to online ordering. I've ordered once from Okayama Denim and once from Denimio, and even though their selection is good their measurements often times are not. If I end up ordering the wrong size from one of these stores it's still an expensive mistake to make, whereas, if you bought something from a US B&M you can usually exchange or return the item with less risk. Also, competition will always be pretty fierce with B&M's in the US. If you're buying a brand like PBJ who are you going to throw your hard earned dollars at? BOW? Mild Blend Supply? BiG?

I just hope they keep selling Full Count, although stock seems to be running low.

 

It is bad that they're hurting bricks & mortar places, but I've been buying Japanese denim since 1999 and it's only now that I can do it affordably.

I don't know that they're hurting B&M's. I think they're providing customers with the option of being able to buy Japanese denim without the inflated prices. B&M's will always be about customer service and there are plenty of customers that will gladly pay extra for the sake of convenience. BOW is a good example. Jay and his crew always have top notch customer service and I have no doubt that they have a loyal group of customers. Plus, BOW has a pretty good selection of goods and they have decent (pre-soak and post-soak measurements) fit guide to assist people. I've seen a ton of stuff on Denimio and Okayama Denim that I passed on because their fit guide can be wonky at times, despite the prices being much lower. Plus, their stock can be inconsistent at times and they sell out of certain items really fast. With that said, I think Japanese retailers like Denimio and Okayama Denim can coexist with US retailers for the reasons I stated above.

When I looked in the mirror today to see arcuate of my Flat Head 3009 I was thinking: “Man, they are quite loud…†In all fairness, the bright double stitched back pockets on a rather unworn pair are no help. But still…

 

So what’s your guys take on arcs nowadays? I for myself was a lot more interested to have some Levi’s-style arcs on the back pockets of my precious Japanese jeans some years ago than I am today.

I still find Samurai’s old arcs to be one of the best when it comes to ‘copying’ Levi’s but nowadays I prefer more plain back pockets or Levi’s arcs that are crooked and imperfect over big and bright arcs. An example of good arcs for me would be Full Count's 1920s pair or the arcs you get when you alter Warehouse’s double arcs. Also Full Count standards arcs are very nice and easily changed into Levi’s. Although at the rate those disintegrate by themselves there is no real need for it

For the most part I prefer plain back pockets without arcs. However, there are a few exceptions for me. I like TSG's arcs and Ande Whall's wing arcs because they're unique (even though I don't own a pair of AW's yet). But, I also like PBJ's embroidered leaf and Leon Denim's embroidered claw marks. I dislike printed arcs, like the Momotaro battle stripes and Evisu's arcs. They look really tacky imo.

I don't understand why anyone would want a pair of Gustins....

I think it's a combination of lack of proper exposure to the denim world and a desire to spend a small amount of money.

old responses but I thought I'd share my experiences. Gustin is the gateway denim for those who are new to raw denim, and I would agree with this. I own 4 pairs of Gustin jeans and they're all perfectly fine - 2 are Cone Mills and the other 2 are Japanese denim. When I got into the raw/selvedge denim world I didn't know what I was looking for. It took me 1.5 to 2 yrs to really dial in my fit. When you're new to selvedge denim the idea of spending $200-300 for a pair of jeans is absurd. It doesn't matter what bells and whistles a pair of jeans has, for most people spending that kinda money means you really have to know your fit and what it is that specifically appeals to you in a pair of jeans.

I've since graduated to better brands but if someone were to ask which company to buy from to get a taste of raw selvedge denim (without breaking the bank) i'd steer them towards Gustin, that is, if people don't mind waiting. There are plenty of other low cost alternatives out there like Bravestar, N&F, United Stock Dry Goods, etc., but most people don't have an expendable income to drop on a single pair of PBJ's, The Strike Gold or Iron Heart. I've noticed that there are quite a few denim heads who start with Gustin and then move onto better brands once they've educated themselves on what else there is in the market. I have a harder time spending $200-300 on jeans made from Cone Mills denim than from Japanese denim, only because Japanese denim is more interesting to me. I'm talking about the dying techniques and they way they're woven, compared to Cone Mills denim which seems fairly generic.

I know i'm preaching to the choir here but just trying to offer some perspective on why some choose Gustin, regardless of your personal feelings on their jeans.

^^

Not entirely true. Ande did some jeans for Wakefield Hotel, a New Zealand denim shop, not too long ago. It was likely a small run and since ut was a NZ shop it probably made sense at the time.

But you are correct. With Ande being a one man operation it wouldn't be a good deal for him unless his jeans were being mass produced.