ColonelAngus

On 3/12/2017 at 9:15 AM, Cold Summer said:

The bigger issue is that "Made in USA" is not much of a selling point for me when made in Japan is usually better, and other countries make stuff at least as well. My RRL shirts are made in China but as nice (in materials + construction) as my American shirts.

A few yrs ago MiUSA seemed to be the primary draw for a few startups. Over time MiUSA lost its shine because certain brands exploited the use of this term to make sales....Lawless i'm looking at you. There are undoubtedly those US makers who do make quality product, but I think at times these makers became so popular that they couldn't keep up with demand. I'm no longer willing to wait X weeks/months to have something made for me. It's too risky a proposition to sink my hard earned cash on something that will be delivered at a future date rather than that product being ready for sale now. I still try to avoid companies that outsource production to 3rd world countries when possible. I've tried a few MiUSA brands and while most were acceptable there were a few that failed on so many levels, whether it was because of unreliable fit charts or design characteristics that turned me off. Made in Japan is much more appealing to me for the most part and I now tend to look past the MiUSA tag as a selling point. At the end of the day, I want a quality product that is worth the money I paid, whether it's denim or leather goods.

9 minutes ago, ShootThePier said:

I really enjoy all my different denims and the msnufacturers that produce the shirts, jackets, and pants.

The manufacturers, retailers, and customers have a problem though. The products we all post about are a niche within a niche.

Looking at my closet I see:

Iron Heart, Samurai, ONI, Mister Freedom, WH Ranch, Roy, Warehouse, Big John, TFH, Stevenson, Freenote, Indigofera, etc...

Can our niche sustain all these labels?

Part of our niche relates to wearing the hell out of these items. And they hold up to it, and then some, and then some more? If I live another 100 years, and stay the same size, my closet has more than enough to get me through all those years and seasons.

My question is how do we support these businesses long term?

 

 

 

good question. When I first discovered raw/selvedge denim 3 yrs ago I didn't really know what I was doing. I kinda went hog wild and went on a splurge, but mostly with lower cost brands. I eventually graduated to mid to higher tier brands but I now buy fewer things for a couple of reasons, 1) my tastes have changed 2) I've dialed in my fit and 3) I initially had bad luck with certain brands after figuring out 1 and 2. I'm now focusing on wearing what I have rather than rushing out to buy the latest ltd edition pair of jeans. Plus, financially, i'm no longer in a place where I have a disposable income to randomly go out and drop some coin on a brand new pair of Vibergs or whatever. I have enough denim to last me a lifetime, but I should probably thin the herd a little.

But to answer your question, supporting companies long term means that these companies have to be sustainable. If they become inaccessible price wise or start to cut corners with production then customers will know. I'm seeing this with Taylor Stitch who initially had MiUSA clothing but have now outsourced a lot of their clothing to Portugal. Part of the draw with TS was them offering MiUSA clothing at relatively affordable prices because of their crowd-sourcing model, but now it seems like them outsourcing to Portugal is a cash grab.

Part of the take away for me is that we as consumers like transparency, especially when you're dropping 2 or 3 bills on clothing. I think the majority of denim companies are transparent about the way they do business. We may not always like what they're doing but only time will tell who survives and who doesn't. For example, RgT has come out with their new 'proprietary' 15oz denim, but it retails for $240 and is $20 more than the 14.5oz flagship denim which I think has been discontinued. Likewise, N&F has upped their pricing to $200 on some of their limited releases, which used to be in the $175-180 range if I recall. So in these instances, what exactly is the reason for the increase? Did the cost of fabric go up? Or has there been a fluctuation in the cost of import duties/taxes?

any of you own the sashiko ranch jacket from Self Edge? Curious how it fits

I'm currently tracking wears on one pair of jeans. this is the first and only time i'll be doing this but it's more of an experiment than anything. I don't really care about achieving epic fades/honeycombs but I am curious how long it'll take for my jeans to wear in before I move onto the next pair.

18 minutes ago, cool_hand said:

 

It's interesting to note that the price rise has matched Blue in Green's $ pricing and from this you might conclude these increases were driven by Blue in Green as Danny has stated he has never made protest over Okayama Denim's pricing. It would be interesting to see how regional sales develop going forward; I think it's safe to say Okayama Denim will inevitably lose sales, but will the small number of retailers who carry PBJ outside of Japan gain that many new customers? Opinion appears fairly divided here over these price increases, off-board everyone I've spoken to have indicated they are no longer going to buy into the brand. I agree with Danny that PBJ won't be disappearing from the denim market but this direction may turn out to be a case of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

 

I don't know that BiG was the driving force. Blue Owl Workshop and Mild Blend Supply also carry PBJ. But you're right, opinions are divided on the issue. Some will pay full price for the brick and mortar experience, while others will not. I think, too, that for some people once you've reached the $300 price point denim goods essentially become a luxury item, which not many people can afford. There could very well be a boom in business for domestic companies because of the price creep, or business will carry on as usual.

PBJ and IH aside, i've noticed pricing has gone up for a couple of other brands already, Rogue Territory and N&F specifically. I'm curious if this is a sign of things to come and if denim brands will eventually start raising the cost of goods across the board? Our 'hobby' is already an expensive one and I think it's just a matter of time before the bubble bursts, especially when there's economic uncertainty with Trumplestiltskin behind the wheel. A few years ago I scoffed at the idea of paying $200+ for a pair of jeans or shirt, nowadays I've changed my view on that because of quality and fit. But I wonder how many others will stop buying stuff once the $300 threshold has been surpassed? I mean, we're not talking about chump change.

1 hour ago, gazeboarder said:

I personally think this whole thing will blow over in a few months.  If you think the prices are too high don't buy anything or try using a proxy.  I will still buy from them just as I will still buy Iron Heart stuff which is similarly priced.  For my sizing I can only buy Iron Heart stuff from either IH-UK, Self Edge or R&H.  The fixed pricing is pretty much the same at all three.

 

the key difference, imho, is that PBJ's sizing isn't cut for western builds the way that IH is. I think PBJ has started to change that recently by incorporating xxl sizes into their lineup but their denim is another story. Even when PBJ's denim was lower through OD/Denimio I avoided trying them because the thighs/knees/hem were oddly proportioned to my eyes. Either the thigh/knees were too small or the hem was too wide, so for that reason I thought they were a risky proposition even if you were only spending $250. I have the deep indigo type 2 and the houndstooth type 2 and luckily both fit, but they're boxy around the shoulders and the cuffs are huge. But I really dig both jackets so I plan on holding onto them. I think IH excels at nailing down fits/fabrics and this is where they have everyone beat,

1 hour ago, SuperJackle said:

That's why iron heart costs so much. But I'm not about to pay that much for a shirt. 

Believe me, once upon a time I would've agreed with you 100% but once you get over the sticker shock and see in person how great their product is it becomes a little easier....just a little. I'll admit that it's hard for me to spend $300+ on a flannel shirt, but after trying several mid-tier brands and not being truly happy with my purchases I decided that it's better in the long run to go for quality over quantity, even if it means spending a little more. The difference is that I have to spread my purchases out and limit myself to to 1 or 2 big purchases per year versus 4 or 5 smaller purchases that were on discount. If money were no object i'd buy IH all day everyday, but i've got bills to pay and a family to take care of just like everybody else.

1 hour ago, Cold Summer said:

I've got a bunch of their flannels in Medium and they fit pretty close from one to the next (though my light blue one from 2014 is a little bit smaller than the more recent ones.)

The thing about flannel shirts is that if you're using different fabrics from season to season like 3Sixteen does, it's incredibly difficult (if not impossible) to get sizing consistency because each fabric has different shrink/stretch properties. You can use the same pattern for three different shirts and they all fit differently because of how the fabric shrinks.

When I worked at Flat Head they'd always try to adjust the pattern after getting a sample, but even then it's a bit of a gamble. It's easy to bash on companies like FH or 3Sixteen for inconsistent sizing, but it's just in the nature of the fabrics they work with. All this stuff considered, I think 3Sixteen actually does a pretty good job keeping sizing consistent on their flannel shirts.

I see your point but I don't know that I agree with you. IH makes flannel shirts very well and I would say they're the best in the game right now. They have lightweight shirts to midweight to ultra heavy flannels and anecdotally, they have incredibly strict quality control. I only have one UHF flannel from IH and it's right on spec. I can't recall if 3sixteen's shirt fabrics are once washed but IH's are, so it takes the guesswork out when a customer worries about their shirt shrinking a half size. This is why IH has a loyal following and why they continue to be the standard bearer in the denim community. I'm just saying that from my own experience 3 out of 3 shirts being under spec is bad and has made me stop buying from 3sixteen.

i've kinda fallen off the 3sixteen bandwagon. I like the fabrics that they use for their shirts but their fits are inconsistent. I have 3 of their crosscut flannels and they all came under spec and have essentially shrunk down to a size medium with a cold wash/hang dry. I've also grown to dislike their signature yoke, which to me takes away from a classic look. nothing against the quality of their stuff per se, I just need consistency.

On Tuesday, March 07, 2017 at 10:38 AM, Cold Summer said:

The pine ranger jacket looks awesome, who's carrying that? I see Snake Oil is already sold out of it.

Yeah, I feel the same way about a lot of this, especially since stuff from Western brands seem to fit me a lot better than Japanese ones, in most cases. On the other hand when I wear my Samurai S710s I really enjoy the little things that really make Japanese garments special, so I don't think I'll ever completely write them off in favor of western stuff.

I do like the Iron Heart CPO shirts, especially after seeing how well Nizzel's shirts have faded. Seems like that would be a good fit too, would be a nice option to consider once my FH shirt is really busted up.

I think Blue Owl Workshop also has the ranger jackets. 

I'm still not completely sold on RgT's stuff. I've got their waxed canvas jacket but nothing else of theirs really jumps out at me.

forgive me for stating the obvious but I believe PBJ is trying to control the value of their goods, and by default, OD & Denimio is devaluing their brand by undercutting non-Japanese retailers. I don't agree with the new pricing structure and think it will do more harm than good but I think they're trying to do what Iron Heart is doing. I know I won't be buying anymore of their clothing, but that's because if i'm going to spend that kind of coin i'd rather do it with IH who have more consistent sizing and more variety.

forgive me for stating the obvious but I believe PBJ is trying to control the value of their goods, and by default, OD & Denimio is devaluing their brand by undercutting non-Japanese retailers. I don't agree with the new pricing structure and think it will do more harm than good but I think they're trying to do what Iron Heart is doing. I know I won't be buying anymore of their clothing, but that's because if i'm going to spend that kind of coin i'd rather do it with IH who have more consistent sizing and more variety.

I have 1 UHF and it fits me perfectly. Dont think IH shirts are boxy at all

I like those RW's. Are those roughouts?

I was tempted to nab a pair of Skulls from the BiG sale but the hem on their jeans is huge

anyone wish to comment of the TYPE II jackets? looking at the natural indigo. some comments here are saying it fits tight around the arms?

mine fit tight around the forearms and in the shoulders (I wear a size 4). don't get me wrong, their type 2's are nice looking jackets but they could use a slight modification in fit. Because of how boxy the jacket is in the shoulders I don't wear it much, but I love the look. the upside to their type 2 is they're cut a little longer than standard type 2's so sit below the belt.

freenote gold corduroy jacket (not on any sale/discount though), Style eyes argyle jacket and okinawas.

question: if I bought a shirt two days before thanksgiving/black friday that was now available at a 30% discount, should I make a ruckus to the shop or is that just bad timing on me? I actually e-mailed them already and waiting to see what they say. Just wondering if it's worth pursing again

later next week if I hear nothing.

Don't bother haggling. You knew Black Friday deals were coming up, so expecting the store to honor the discount before the fact seems to be in poor taste

Question, I noticed that whenever I see fit pics of Ande's jeans there's usually that weird looking 'ass dimple.' Is it the arc stitching that causes this effect, or am I imagining this?

This is a good point and one that's been on my mind. People can do what they like as it's their money but I feel a bit annoyed by those who jumped on the bandwagon once they heard Ande was closing down simply because they didn't want to 'miss out' or 'regret' not buying his jeans. Particularly when more loyal customers missed out in the final scramble (I don't include myself here as I have enough jeans and was only waiting for a restock of the 15.3oz). He's been in business for a long time so why wait until now?

Anyway, rant over...

I'm one of those who missed out and regretted not buying a pair when I had the chance. For me it boiled down to simply not having the funds available. I already have about 12 or so pairs of denim, so adding one more pair seemed silly when I really only wear 2 pairs in rotation at any given time. I also have a toddler to think about, so it's either I buy jeans I don't need or feed my son. Over the years i've had to learn to control my spending and not give in to every urge to spend money. Nowadays I allow myself one nice purchase every few months.

With that said, I think Ande could've continued his business had he marketed himself more. I find it odd that he has an Ande Whall Art Instagram page but not an Ande Whall denim IG page. Raw denim is insanely popular on IG and I believe he could've attracted more customers to his brand had he posted denim pics. He posted pics via Facebook but not IG, unfortunately, there are a lot of non-Facebook users out there. Not bashing Ande or anything, just an observation. I think Ande's story is far more interesting than most other denim companies precisely because he does everything himself. In that regard I would compare him to companies like VermilyeaPelle, Truman Boots, etc.

I didn't know about Ande's jeans until sometime last year. Initially the arcs on the pockets weren't my cuppa tea, but they gradually grew on me. I kept visiting his site to see what new SR series he was developing, but I never pulled the trigger. I think it's unfortunate that he had to close down. The economics of running a one-man-brand probably didn't provide a stable income, which is understandable. It sounds like he's selling off his machines but the optimistic side of me is hoping that down the road he'll stage a comeback and get back in the denim game. Wishful thinking, I know, but a man can dream.

Crikey

I've also been curious about how these brands prepare themselves technically for the launch of their brands. The only way I see it being viable for small brands is if the owners are slowly buying and learning on their machines over a period of several years (like I imagine Roy did, or Rising Sun)... or maybe contracting out the labor to people who already have the skills and hardware (like William with Tender). But the impression I get with brands like Lawless or Traveller, which always seem to be opening and closing all the time, is that they just jump into it, and thus we see so many poorly thought-out designs and marketing strategies, not to mention problems with QC.

 

 

my theory is that quite a few denim start-ups simply don't know what the hell they're doing and want to get in on the denim fad. The problem I see is that there are very few qualified sewers working in the garment industry, so it's a dying trade. Unless you have the production capacity to sew hundreds of pairs of jeans per month I honestly don't see how a new brand with very little in the way of contacts or experience can get anything made. Ande Whall is one of the exceptions of someone who learned his trade and put it to practice, but even that ended up not working out in the end.

Multiple times in Japan I've seen people recognize what I was wearing and look me up and down with a kind of "who does this guy think he is" look. That happens here in Taiwan sometimes, too. Rude shit like that. I guess it makes sense though; if you're into denim as a form of competitive shopping to see who looks the absolute coolest at all times, then everyone else is a threat.

 

this doesn't surprise me. I've encountered this as well when I lived in Japan, but you also see this here among the streetwear crowd. it's definitely rude as hell. whenever i'd get those looks it reminded me of the vibe you'd get in high school. nowadays I don't give a f*ck. The best way to counter the up and down look is to do it right back at them.

Saw those Grantstones a lot lately on IG. Never knew they were made in China. All models?

as far as I know they're all MiC.