Paul T

Ag set up the Genius group, of which Diesel was a part, Replay, and others, and was boss of Team Kit, which among other jobs designed Gap's 1968 range. PLus he had shares in Evis early on. He's the first eprson I know of to produce selvage jeans once all the Cone looms etc were retired, and one of, if not the, first people really to work on replicating the look of vintage jeans, with Martelli. People at Levi's, Diesel, Lee and other companies have cited him as the biggest denim expert in the business, period. I don't know him, but I've spoken to him and he's a very helpful, incredibly knowledgeable guy... who's besotted with denim.

I was in Selfridges last week, didn't look thru all the racks, but I definitely saw them listed on the signage... did you ask?

These aren't 501. Look at the widely-spaced hem on the back pocket, that's a characrteristic of early Leiv's workwear, just llike the Nevada jeans, plus single stitching on the yoke. I don't understnad why the patch (which you'll notice is under the cinch) is so big either...

I was actually lucky enough to be at Levi's archive when a few people were examining the Nevada jeans for the first time... these look very similar. IEther they're modelled on a specific pair of old jeans they have just bought.. or they're LVC's guess of what a slightly later jean than the Nevada pair would look like.

I did see there was a singlepocket jean in the new LVC range and these must be the ones, I'll try and find the catalogue I've lost. I do love these tho. Some time ago, I got hold of a pair of LVC's Indigo Immortals - like these, but 2 back pockets. Got into work ... first comment: "euggghh, they look they belonged to a tramp who's pissed himself..."

Exactly. The Nevada jeans were pre-501, possibly from 1880. These look to be later, because they don't have the pliers pocket. But I don't know that Leiv's have got exactly this pair in the archives... I wonder if they're a modifed version of the Nevada jeans... not a big deal, I'll have to see if I can find Leiv's original information. I like them, though... it's possible they might be natural indigo, like the Nevada reissue, with wear by bart Sights.

Does anyone know about these LVC jeans? IE what year they were produced? As far as I can tell these look identical to the Nevada mine jeans, but they don't seem to have the pliers pocket on the left thigh. Or is it one of the brand-new range from this spring? I didn't know Levi's actually had an 1886 pair of 501s.. I wonder if this is a historical construct...

It was right from the start.

An interesting question is whether any other pants makers used arcuates BEFORE Levi's. It's quite possible.No one knows how unique the design of the first Levi's pants was, for instance whether they took a pretty common design, and just added their own unique touch, the rivets. Lots of rivals used arcuates in the 1890s.

Incorrect! There's a lot of misinformation on the web.

Leiv's bought the earliest known pair of Leiv's (which predated the 501) for $45,000 a couple of years ago. It had a watch pocket. THey also have one pair in a tan cotton duck from the same period. These are the earliest known Levi's, from 1880 or earlier, and they both have watch pockets.

Looks good... Boogieman, haven't checked properly, but one thing I did see is that the watch pocket WAS on the very first jeans - there's on one a pair of brown cotton duck pants, which is the earliest pair in the Archives, as well as on the $45,000 denim jeans.

It's really the ageing that's the best clue. All reissue's have the 'R' on the red tab. Not all originals do. Look inside the jeans, at the back pocket rivets (if they're riveted, of course). Do they have a square edge or are they a little rounded? If the former, they're repro. Are the rivets a bright colour, or nicely aged? Repro jeasn dont normally have aged rivets inside and these are hard to fake. Repro stuff will also have a new washing tag, look to see if you can find a trace of it, normally under the l/h pocket.

Sorry, no links for Levi's records, this was a printout of info from their archives someone gave me.

OK. I'll bite. Feel free to correct me, anyone. My info comes from Leiv's records.

During what years did Levi's use oil cloth instead of leather for the rear waistband patch?

oil cloth was just used for the cheaper 201 range, which ran from 1906 or earlier, and disappeared by the 1930s.

When was the cinching buckle removed?

WWII period, most people would say c1940

What year was the crotch rivet removed? (I hear 1940's but nothing more specific than that)

As above

What year were the back pocket rivets covered? (Also 1940's, but when?

1937

What year did Levi's start using wideloom denim instead of selvage denim?

1980; universal by 1982

Which Levi's have LEVI'S (or LeVI'S) on both sides of the tag and which don't?

For 501, double sided tag appeared 1953.

Thankful for any answers you guys can give me.

Levi's employ a freelance denim expert in the UK who every few months will go around looking for counterfeits, or for other companies infringing Leiv's trademarks such as the red tab (or indeed any tab in the Levi's location)... as others have pointed out, they don't own trademark on the tab in Japan, which is why you'll see it on many Japanese brands (they don't own the arcuate in Spain, either).

It doesn't take a lot to get traders to drop fakes - usually a stiff letter to the retailer and distributor will do it; if it's market stalls they can involve local trading standards officers.

I don't think Levi's UK employ many people to do this;. could be just this one expert, and perhaps a couple of others. Looks to me like Evisu is not doing this, and counterfeiters are exploiting the confusion among retailers and customers...

These look a bit like American Templars - with all that extra red selvage. THey can't resist adding extra features just ot make them look that little bit more authentic.

You''' never see jeasn with selvage both on the outside seam and the inseam, because jeans legs are tapered. Full selvage is like the outside of most vintage 501 jeans - you can see two white bands when you look at the outside seam. Half selvage is rarer, and is used on some Lee jeans, between the early and late 50s (and on many of their European reissues). look at the outside seam, you'll see one white band with a neat finished edge, and one overstitched edge; this is half selvage.

Grrrrrr! They have used my copyright photo of those 1939 Levi's, without permission or acknowledgement, on their home page. Cheapskates.

I heard recently that the introduction of the Italian jeans coincided with a huge range of counterfeit in London, which is doing them huge damage, and no-one's cracking down on it. Will be interesting to see what effect it has, but I know their rivals are writing them off.

The comparison with Diesel isn't that valid - Diesel generally have a great retail environment, which helps them control their brand. Evisu hasn't, which is one of the reasons counterfeiting is becoming a problem. If they want to become a big brand, as opposed to a cool, cult one, they need to invest some money in controlling it.

Mmm, double-sided tab means they're post 1953; concealed rivets means they're pre 1967. I suspect they did have a red line but it's washed out. Is it possible the back pocket arcuate has simply worn off? Can you see any traces of it at the edge? Either way, sounds like a good find.

I was in Selfridge's (not a cheap shop, Oxford St) today, they had APC dry denim for £65.

For Paul Smith, check out their discount store. It's basically off Brook St, which is off Bond St, down a little alleyway. It tends to have sale items and is always worth a look.

For denim Selfridges and Liberty have the widest choice, but their summer sales are limited and I'm not sure when they are. Check out Endell St and Covent Garden (which has the main Paul Smith store) for more denim... they tend to be a bit cheaper, for more selvage, vintage-style denim (INterstate and American Classics). For second'hand go to Mendoza on Brick Lane (great for Belstaff jackets) and Beyond Retro. Altho' if you're from the US, used denim is pricier than in the US.

It's not perfect, but in London buy a copy of the time Out shopping guide, it's pretty good as a guide to what you can get where.

For shoes, save your money til you get to Italy. Even in the main stores, even things like Tod's are 2/3 US prices, and its worth going to them for the beautiful (M&F) sales people.

Have fun.

" fashion victims to discuss for the 50th time about vintage denim (which is SOOO 1980's Japan), "...

I don't think this is a fashion thing - it's a purists' thing, which is different. You could even say that the whole obsession with selvage, ring-ring, or cool-looking jeans (which I share) is anti-fashion - it's about getting hold of something inherently simple, which is just 'made right'. Some people like APC jeans cos they're 'cool' and will impress others; some people like them cos they just 'feel right'; for themselves.

I don't think it's crucial for anyone to know loads about denim. But it;s such a ubiquitous fabric, with such resonance, that knowing about it does increase your enjoyment in tracking it down, wearing it, watching it fade. It's like watching a movie - you can spot all the historical references, the way the script is structured, thje camerawork - or you can simply enjoy the movie. But if you do understnad more about how the movie came about, the camerwork bla bla bla, it will actually increase your enjoyment when you see a brilliant movie, cos you can appreciate it on so many different levels. It's not obllgatory, though.

Ultimately, it's not important. But if you're gonna wear jeans anyway, so you look for ones you feel are 'right', it's not harmful, either.

If you'd paid $30 or $40, maybe they would be cool for the price. As I said, I was suprised that people did go to that much trouble - show the market for vintage-style gear is bigger than you'd think. But I suspect the real deal wouldn't have cost much more than the $100 you paid. THese things happen & I can understand how you were fooled. But what you SHOULD do is post follow-up feedback on the guy who ripped you off, so that others don't get ripped off too.

Oh yeah, and is the mass-produced 13MWZ still broken twill?

IN the UK Wranger were famous for flares in the 70s and 80s... then pretty much disppeared in the 90s, altho you see a lot of vintage jackets around.

What's the standard production one like? (You can only get the Blue Bell reissues in the UK AFAIK).

Last time I looked, some of the Wrangler cowboy jeans were in a cotton/polyester denim! Is the stnadard one still a slight boot-cut?

You might know this already, but in Europe they're producing vintage style 11MW and 13MWZ jeans under the Blue Bell Collection brand (you can see them on the website) - made in Poland, I think, with Turkish denim - the quality looks good, nice vintage-style detailing but I don't know what the shape is like. In Europe the jeans aren't too hip, but the jackets are - they're the quintessential Mod denim jacket.

I do agree that they're kinda under-rated jeans, tho I've never tried a pair on. I think VF corporation, who've owned Lee & Wrangler for years, used Wrangler as a cash cow & never tried to expand their market (whereas the Lee division, particularly in Europe, did a much better job). But lately the European design end have introduced some hipper stuff.

A bit OT, but I noticed today that Evisu do a new kid's line. It's truly pitiful - only for people who want to buy a label when the clothes themselves look like crap, and the prices are beyond ridiculous. It marks a new low. Even H&M stuff is designed with more imagination.

OTOH, has anyone seen you can get Belstaff jackets for four-year-olds?

Hey, this is one minimal post!

I saw the 11MW, I think, the button fly version... I would be interested to try some on and see how much of a bootcut they are. But the one item from the new collection I think really rocks is the western shirt, I think it's called the 27MW - it's like Leiv's sawtooth shirt, but looks a bit sleeker. There are great William Claxton shots of Steve McQueen wearing it.

But then, there was the time I was walking down the street in Leiv's Red and a sawtooth shirt, and a drunk woman came up to me and said "hello cowboy'. Not sure I could go thru that again...

Actually, the weird/interesting about the cut of jeans - which has become iconic, and rarely varies from when Levi's, or even people before them, produced denim pants in the 1870s - is that it probably originated from a desire to waste the minimum amount of fabric - that's why things like the yoke are shaped the way they are. I'll be interested if anyone here knows more, but my impression is that, using narrow selvage, there would't be a huge amount of waste.

Actually, I'm pretty staggered there are so many people producing fake LVC items. And while the pair shown here aren't that good, they're not that bad, either. They're probably no worse than LS&Co's first attempt at making 'Capital E' jeans in the 1990s.