ringring

Paul,

You may be interested in the story of Mount Vernon's mill. They have a splendid account of it on their site -

http://www.mvmdenim.com/history/index.html

From the Cherokee Land Lotteries in the early 19th Century to speculation as to why General Sherman spared the mill from being destroyed in the Civil War - and the mill getting burnt to the ground anyway - to denim manufacturing in the 1970s and the replacement of shuttle looms by projectile looms in the 80s.

Your topic would make a good book

Folk America Birth of a Nation could have been it. I'm not certain because I didn't catch the beginning.

PS try searching for Folk America on iPlayer. I think that may have been the one.

There you go, a link between music and clothing

Interesting you mention the Boll Weevil, infamous of course, for nearly wiping out Sea Island cotton on the east coast.

The weevil migrated from South America, mirroring, in part, the movement of the Sea Island species, through South America - Argentina, to the West Indies (via the Spanish) and onto South Carolina.

There was a program about the link between cotton mills and folk music, and it's movement from black sharecroppers to Irish mill workers on BBC4 recently. Maybe still on iPlayer.

Great to 'see' you too. Keeping the British end up

A suitable post about 'dark, satanic mills' to coinside with your 666th post

I'm also interested in the history of US cotton mills, powered by the swift moving waters of New England and immigrant labour from Ireland, Portugal, Italy & Poland etc.

And it's influence on blues & folk music - something, no doubt you know a great deal about.

Have you seen the cotton mill museum at Lowell, Massachusetts?

how very insidious

that makes it all the more important to know the provenance of your denim

only buy from trusted sources

if it looks too good to be true...

Insidious? Only if you think it's narrow, shuttle loom denim. I don't think it's meant to con anyone. lt's clever if anything. It's definitely good denim, and definitely true.

ok thanks. as i said the same shop had selvedge that was probably about 30 inch width, this one i've bought is about twice that I think... I wanted more as it's the 1st time ill have made jeans and wanted to have more just incase.

it seems to be quite nice quality though, its a nice indigo as well.

30" is about right for shuttle loom selvedge ( a bit narrower usually). It just means you would need twice the length of fabric than you need with the double width.

"not a lot of people know that" *said in a Michael Caine voice*

Yes. It's out there.

hi guys, i bought some denim to make jeans with, it was quite a wide roll, bought 3 meters. Im not sure if it's selvedge though, i know it has the white edge, but it still has the thread coming off, there was some selvedge at the same shop that didnt have any of the threads?? any ideas?

That's the cut (selv)edge of a modern jet loom. It's not 'selvedge denim' in the way most people on here consider selvedge ie. woven on narrow shuttle looms.

From what's visible from the back side, it looks fine though.

Interestingly, there are now wide width denims available with closed, woven selvedge

Good shout on the H&M Paul. Super value as always from the Superswedes

Gap have made splendid kiddy selvedge jeans too, as good as the more pricey Levi's versions.

I have a soft spot for Holyfield (next to Okura in Daikanyama) and it's sister Tricofield on W. Houston, NYC. Pricey, but wonderful. T shirts in particular.

...edit..Duck, just saw your post and clicked the link.... I didn't know that Tricofield was also know as Fifth...anyway, great product. Definitely worth a look in NYC whether you have kids or not.

Oftopic, but whatever happened to Christopher Nemeth actually?

Last thing I heard was that he's in Japan and being adored over there?

I don't know, but I think you're probably correct. He may have found an afterlife in Japan amongst the goth-lolita subculture that props up Westwood. His partner in The House of Beauty & Culture, Judy Blame still seems to be going well. Athough I have no idea what happened to John Moore, the third of the trinity.

On a more dour note, so much of the creativity that blossomed up in that era, Flett, Ray Petri, Leigh Bowery etc seemed to have been tragically cut short by AIDs.

As soon as I heard about the relaunch of Levi's RED for this season, I couldn't wait to get these. The concept for the collection is based on old illustrated advertisements from the Levi's archive. Inspiration was drawn from characters such as the lanky "sidewalker" and bow-legged cowboy.

It's good to see Levi's using the Red line for more conceptual projects that aren't driven purely by commerce.

The curved seams remind me of John Flett's designs. (80's english designer, now, sadly deceased). Talking of which, the 'bags' style from the same Red collection also reminds me of the 80s - Christopher Nemeth's House of Beauty & Culture asethetic.

This sounds great. Jenny Balfour-Paul has done amazing historical and anthropological research into indigo... I shall get my ass down there and report.

They have a copy of your denim book in the Brighton exhibit

The Brighton exhibition is a lovely little show (in a charming museum). Of particular interest was the wooden model of a Bengali natural indigo processing plant and the calandered cottons of the Miao people of China (there's also a beautiful calandered burqa in the Hove show).

There are a few pairs of jeans on show. Nothing great (in fact, one pair in particular was hideous), apart from the LVC Nevada jeans repro.

However, most (all?) of the information than appears in JBP's seminal book and you may have seen the type of clothing before in costume galleries, like in the V&A in London.

The Hove exhibit is smaller, and as advertised there are some 'folky' type work by Jenny Balfour-Paul (who also appears to be an accomplished photographer) and Lucy Goffin.

If you go to only one, then the Brighton show is the better one.

Try and see some Denime washes in the flesh. Last time I dropped into a Denime store they had some very convincing washes on non selvedge denim, but they looked very much like real worn selvedge jeans. Complete with twisted seams.

Subtle. Without the exaggerated chevrons or honeycombs you often get. Like old 501s you'd find at a thrift store. If you wear those a few months and wash regularly, then I would doubt many people would be able to tell the difference.

Otherwise, have a look at RRL. Some nice washes there too and may be easier to get hold of, depending on your location.

I think there's a few 906 variants too. Zippered, heavier denim etc.

Don't you want a 907 whilst you're at it?

Get some Jomons by 45rpm. If you don't mind a purple hue to your denim and can live with the fit, then those jeans will hang on to their colour like a limpet.

Personally, I think jeans start getting interesting after a handfull of washes (Although with the Jomons you might not see any change at all).

Welcome.

I profess to being unenlightened as regards to Joe McCoys. Just a fleeting knowledge - bits and bobs gathered on the wing, but I'm not really a collector of that, or any other, brand.

Didn't the 905s had selvedge pocket bags and copper shanked buttons?

Back peddling a bit, I notice that some collectors are quite sniffy about Real McCoys. And value the products from Toys McCoy higher, even the leathers.

^^ Yeah that's what zk4025 said. I was thinking of the 901A, though i primarily want the 905.

You're being picky? Arise Sir Denimnerd

Regular 905, the XH or the S-XH (with a bit of natural indigo?)?

Good question. My memory is a bit hazy, but as far as I remember, both are traditional, anti-fit cuts, which were normal for that time period. Both were WW2 style repros.The kind of fit that is similar to a Warehouse 1001 or Denime XX.

I think the 901a had a different kind pocket lining to the 901's olive green pocketing. The 901z were zippered versions.

Are you getting either?

Tweedles - you should be able to find both in HK, albeit a limited selection.

I think Mellon.Collie is referring to your colourful username Tweedles

I'm told the McHill's are indeed an effort to recreate the denim quality and construction of the original, and as Takashi put's it, 'legendary" Joe McCoys. Which is why they are so sort after by the Ubernerds.

Welcome Mellon.Collie.

"You might like to telephone Miss Willey, who probably knows"

"Population : Elderly. Memory: Hazy. Visibility : Poor. Numbness In All Areas

Small Shops : Abundant

Butchers. Fishmongers : Several"

I love it. I must drop by.

ringring, you have a pair? any notes on the details?

Yes, I have a pair. Details are pretty much per my previous post. I guess much of the appeal, lies in the fit, which is lower rise, 66 style slim fit, and the truly wonderful redcast denim. For those who value history, I know a few denimnerds who have bought them also due to the original McCoy lineage. They also seem to be a rarity.

On the flipside, the donut fly buttons are a bit cheap looking.

Do you mind if I ask what sets the Fullcounts apart?

As the replies above, the Fullcounts have curved back pocket openings (as well as the beautiful subtle curve of the inner edge of the patch pocket) and multiple thread sizes, colours and stitch counts (including the beautifully dense stitching done using a fine yarn on the fly front and back pockets - stitching that would grace a fine shirt).

More refinements include the peek-a-boo selvedge on the 5th pocket, the ridged belts loops, although by no means exclusive to Fullcount.

It's small details like these that gives the impression that whoever designed these jeans decided to go just a little bit further in every direction.

Other notable features of the 1108 are the straight hipped cut and the beautiful denim, which, although heavyweight, is so compact that after wear it feels thin. It takes on a shine, even a shimmer and the fine ring pattern reminds me of the falling rain.

They are one of the few pairs of jeans that I would consider buying multiples of, just in case they stopped production.

mccoy doesn't strictly make repros! these are def low rise, slim, straight jeans!

so someone pm'd me and the page i linked with the 555/6601 cut. it looks like these are def vanity sized - a size 32 had these measurements . . .

waist - 35

front rise - 10.4

hem - 8.7

i'm guessing after hot soaking they'll be

waist - 33.5-34

front rise - 9.5-10

hem - 8-8.5

someone should hop on these if they are made of the same denim as the ones above. i would but i just bought a pair of flatheads. it looks like they are around $210 USD without factoring in a proxy and shipping fees yet. expensive . . . but def look worth the trouble if they'll look like tweedles. look at that color depth!

*UPDATE*

so i priced it out using a 15% proxy

[25200 + 1000 (shipping in japan) + 2600 (shipping to USA)] + .15[25200 + 1000 (shipping in japan) + 2600 (shipping to USA)] = 33120 YEN

approximately $274, holy crap these are expensive!

Those are the much sought after McHill 6601s. They are one of my favourite jeans. Made by Toys McCoy from the original Joe McCoy lineage.

The construction is pretty simple, with none of the sophistication of a Fullcount 1108 (but then, few jeans are) - a bit like Eternal 811s, but with a much nicer asymetric back pocket. However, the denim is seriously beautiful.

They are slim fit, with a low-ish rise. Be careful on sizing. I've found some pairs, although tagged different sizes, to actually measure virtually the same.

Those McHill's are the stealth denimnerd jeans. Not many people have them or know about them.