Abe1x

Anyone have experience with Schoeller c_change? I'm contemplating a jacket which uses that membrane. On paper it sounds awesome, but no idea how it actually performs.

It's a really good membrane, on par with Gore but with a four way stretch. Schoeller's face fabrics are among the very best for waterproof-breathables. The whole pine cone opening closing thing is hype though, breathes as well as gore and not as good as Neoshell or eVent.

Ultrasonic welding has been around for a while with out much pickup. Only people I can think of offhand that are using it now are Backcountry.com for their Stoic house brand. Maybe Mountain Hardware was/is using it too?

Maybe a discussion for a different time/place but a lot of people think that the tech is inherantly bad for the workers. It certainly *feels* wrong to be close to those machines, but not sure anyone has proven it is actually harmful.

It definitely works in lab conditions, but it's a little hard to tell just how much of a difference it makes when actually wearing it. It seems to work but without making a half and half garment (out of the same fabric with half being coldblack and the other not) its a bit hard to tell how much actual cooling effect it provides.

Regardless of how well it cools its a killer anti UV technology, it goes in with the dye process not as a finishing treatment so it doesn't wash off.

Underarmour just started a big rollout with the tech, apparently they like it enough to want to put it in everything.

eVent definitely made a lot of mistakes, not the least of which was using inferior face fabrics on what is arguably a superior membrane. Gore's quality control is awesome and part of that involves having high quality face fabrics (from a tech side, visually their face options are pretty shitty except for the japanese lifestyle stuff).

As for eVent licensing their membrane, this is actually an amazing thing for the consumers. It means that companies can laminate anything to the membrane and make much better fabrics because of it. I've seen some awesome chambray and denim stuff laminated to eVent and I'm sure there will be a lot more coming in the next couple seasons, the licensing thing is pretty new.

The other thing the article didn't mention is that Gore Japan (and I'm guessing Europe) are obviously is much more lenient than Gore in the US. If it wasn't for all the Japanese lifestyle stuff 90% of the Gore articles people fiend over around here wouldn't be allowed on the market. It's a bitch to get a Gore license in the first place, and the way they control the garment makes it damn hard for people to do interesting stuff. With eVent and to a certain extent Neoshell (which is WAY more comfortable than Gore btw) people can design what they want and actually make it without some anal company signing off on it.

Big Outside mag investigative piece on Gore Tex: http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/insane-in-the-membrane.html

Re: dungarees nanosphere treatment, 5-10 minutes in the drier and it'll be like new.

Anybody actually own one of the mission workshop bags?

They are some of the best. The backpack's expandability is killer, don't know anything else that goes from that slim to "full load" so well. If you like a slim profile but wind up lugging a lot of stuff they're the best option by miles. For actual mess work a deeper, banker box bag like a freight mighht be better, and if you want lighterweight an HMG. The mess bags are good too, great strap system, well thought out and built to last. They are the old Chrome founders/team so they really know what they are doing.

@unmen it's the same as any ventile piece (from the past decade or so) and the outlier storm king, some pretty close shots here: http://shop.outlier.cc/shop/retail/storm-king.html . Visually it's just a really dense/tight plain weave, (there is more going on in the yarn but you can't see that). if you imagine a cotton canvas shrunk so that you can barely see or feel the weave that's sort of what it's like

Curious if a gore poncho performs any different than a non breathable. There is a lot of air flow there so it breathes by design, and makes it harder to create the energy difference that gore requires to push vapor through the membrane. But non breathable ponchos can get pretty clammy so maybe it does change things, be interesting to test

Yep, small first run, small second run, small company in general.

Yes, Neoshell is as loud as Gore. It's still a membrane.

It also seems to run significantly cooler and less clammy, but it's also less wind resistant. Overall though it feels significantly better than Gore and eVent.

If there was something that much better wouldn't TNF and Arc'teryx use it ??

Especially Arc isn't that interested about prices but more about good jackets..

TNF has their own Hyvent but doesn't use it in their high end jackets...

For a brand to get a Gore license they need to agree not to use any competing membranes. TNF was big enough that they were able to negotiate a contract lets them use Hyvent. Think Patagonia recently pull the same thing off. But the key is that Gore will only agree to these deals if the second membrane is billed as a cheaper and inferior product, even if it's not actually inferior.

Arc'teryx has a long relationship with Gore. To use eVent or Neoshell they'd need to break that relationship. Not a decision to make lightly, but I'd guess they've considered it but for now are just pushing for Gore to create something better. A lot of the reason they likely didn't switch was until this year was that while eVent's membrane was better their face fabrics were inferior (they cut costs that side to keep the price on par with Gore's). But now you can get eVent bonded to whatever you want (Mountain Hardwear's DryQ is an eVent membrane with their own face fabric.) Neoshell literally just hit the market (my Westcomb still hasn't shipped yet) but if it performs as well as the early reports than it will definitely make companies think twice about keeping their Gore licenses.

Main thing is that there is zero question that both eVent and Neoshell are significantly more breathable than Gore and totally waterproof in just about all conditions most people will encounter.

Gore is a second class membrane now. The only thing keeping their rep up is their quality control. They use tougher face fabrics and approve garment designs. In terms of waterproof breathability just about any generic membrane (c_change, H2No, Gelatnots and the like) is going to be pretty comparable. eVent and Neoshell are way more breathable. Ventile is way more breathable too, but works differently and is less waterproof. Also note that eVent just started licensing their membrane, so it's starting to show up rebadged with house labels.

The outdoor gear companies are WAY too price point driven to make the best tech gear. Companies like Acronym an Stone Island are often using better fabrics than the real gear companies because they are willing to spend more.

Same thing goes with cuts, because the fabric is such a price driver, most outdoor gear is patterned to maximize yield with movement being a secondary concern. Acronym and Veilance both are patterned for movement first, and by the best movement oriented designers around.

Production wise Arc'teryx's BC factory where they make Veilance is pretty much the best in the world for certain tech innovations, a notch or two above their own Asian production. Acronym and Visvims is world class too, on par wih the best outdoor gear and better than the mid level stuff.

@greencarman: I'm pretty sure it's the opposite, there is one Tilak jacket that looks like it was designed by Erolson for them, or borrows heavily from his designs. (from memory inthink the Evolution) The rest of Tilak's stuff is extremely well made but pretty much the same cuts as what Arc'teryx and Mountain Hardware make.

Edit: your second post came in while I was typing. It's no secret that Acronym does production in the Tilak factory. But it's not rebadged Tilak. But that jacket is a good deal and quite likely an Erolson design.

Thanks people, always down to talk this stuff... Would have been hear sooner except the signup is slow...

Lloyd, talked to a mill recently trying to take phase change to the next level, basically dialing it is cycling back and forth as the fabric moves closer or further from the body during natural movement. Early stage stuff but if it works...

Exactly. Outlast has really impressive demo stuff, but the amount of material that can either be applied to the fabric or incorporated into the fibers (outlast offers both) is pretty neglible, not enough to make a real noticeable effect in a garment.

btw. anyone has some PCM jackets? i was wearing my isa riding jacket today and i feel like it's not working.

PCM isn't a really Schoeller tech, it's rebadged Outlast. That stuff actually works, but only for about 5 minutes and even in those minutes it's a subtle effect. Once the phase change is done its just another fabric layer.

Doubt it's Pertex, it's cheap compared to Gore and when has Visvim ever switched to a cheaper alternative?

Sounds like it might be eVent. GE recently changed their event licensing rules and now you bond the membrane to your own face fabrics and don't need to use their branding. It breathes way better than Goretex, but requires more maintence as it loses water resistance as it gets dirty.